UWO's BMOS - Commercial Aviation Management

[UWO Coordinator]

Hello,

I am a UWO grad and currently an instructor in the program as well as the coordinator at Empire (a.k.a. Maylan).
I would be more than happy to answer any questions about the program. Anyone interested can also call Maylan at (519)455-3020, or get in touch with the university. There is a website at http://mos.uwo.ca/cam/ I believe that it is being updated to reflect recent changes.

I would like to address a few issues that I have seen in this thread:

1. There is an established advisory committee comprised of individuals experienced in the industry. They interact regularly with the flight school and with the university to ensure the quality and relevance of the education, and to ensure that the needs of the students are being met.

2. If you were to compare the costs of doing a degree and separately doing flight training, the program offers a little bit of a discount (of course this would vary by degree and flight school compared).

3. This program can be done without the flying portion, which is a good option for those who don't want to be pilots, have considerable time flying elsewhere, or for whom the flight portion is simply not the best choice.

4. Yes grads are at the same point as others with 250 hours or a bare University degree. They generally pursue the same entry level jobs as others. Recent grads are instructors, dispatchers, rampies, twotter pilots, managing flight schools, working in the business aspects of airlines, working at Jazz, pursuing float ratings and embarked on a whole host of other careers.

5. Some of the people who try to go through this degree and who do not enjoy business end up electing to finish their degrees in other disciplines. You generally should enjoy business to enjoy this program. Those who do not enjoy business, but are interested in the university route might consider the U of Waterloo courses.

For those who have posted; please keep asking questions about the program! Many of the grads (myself included) are only too happy to talk about the CAM program.

[mcrit]

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! If you ying yangs don't STFU and let this thread die a natural death I will have to explain EXACTLY how impressive the grads from your program are. (Seneca's attitude, but with a lot less piloting skill. [apologies to Seneca because not all of your grads have the attitude]). You will NOT enjoy that. If you want to advertise why don't you cough up some cash for Joe and take out an ad on here. Frakin' parasites

[Blue Side Down]

Amen. May it rest in pesche

[ToFlyIsDivine]

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! If you ying yangs don't STFU and let this thread die a natural death I will have to explain EXACTLY how impressive the grads from your program are. (Seneca's attitude, but with a lot less piloting skill. [apologies to Seneca because not all of your grads have the attitude]). You will NOT enjoy that. If you want to advertise why don't you cough up some cash for Joe and take out an ad on here. Frakin' parasites

hahaha...so much hatred and anger....
something must be done about that....perhaps may I suggest anger management?

[L1011]

hahaha...so much hatred and anger....
something must be done about that....perhaps may I suggest anger management?

Would somebody clip this guy's wings? Please?

Seriously, why would you keep this thread going when you've already made your school look bad enough? Maybe it's because you lack an outside perspective, but yes, you have made your school look bad.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

hahaha...so much hatred and anger....
something must be done about that....perhaps may I suggest anger management?

Would somebody clip this guy's wings? Please?

Seriously, why would you keep this thread going when you've already made your school look bad enough? Maybe it's because you lack an outside perspective, but yes, you have made your school look bad.

How so?

[AuxBatOn]

You didn't get it, have you?

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Hello,

I am a UWO grad and currently an instructor in the program as well as the coordinator at Empire (a.k.a. Maylan).
I would be more than happy to answer any questions about the program. Anyone interested can also call Maylan at (519)455-3020, or get in touch with the university. There is a website at http://mos.uwo.ca/cam/ I believe that it is being updated to reflect recent changes.

I would like to address a few issues that I have seen in this thread:

1. There is an established advisory committee comprised of individuals experienced in the industry. They interact regularly with the flight school and with the university to ensure the quality and relevance of the education, and to ensure that the needs of the students are being met.

2. If you were to compare the costs of doing a degree and separately doing flight training, the program offers a little bit of a discount (of course this would vary by degree and flight school compared).


3. This program can be done without the flying portion, which is a good option for those who don't want to be pilots, have considerable time flying elsewhere, or for whom the flight portion is simply not the best choice.

4. Yes grads are at the same point as others with 250 hours or a bare University degree. They generally pursue the same entry level jobs as others. Recent grads are instructors, dispatchers, rampies, twotter pilots, managing flight schools, working in the business aspects of airlines, working at Jazz, pursuing float ratings and embarked on a whole host of other careers.

5. Some of the people who try to go through this degree and who do not enjoy business end up electing to finish their degrees in other disciplines. You generally should enjoy business to enjoy this program. Those who do not enjoy business, but are interested in the university route might consider the U of Waterloo courses.

For those who have posted; please keep asking questions about the program! Many of the grads (myself included) are only too happy to talk about the CAM program.

Very good

[ToFlyIsDivine]

I am not suggesting that you give up uni or college (whatever you are doing), but it is not a bad idea to obtain a degree. If i could do one without working for it I wouldnt mind having one, lol. You might have heard many times, that a degree will give you extra points to get hired with an airline. That is true, but your experience in aviation has a priority over a degree as far as im concerned. Lets say you get a degree and your fresh out of flight school with 200 hours, and your competing with another candidate who has 3000 hours with multi/ifr/turbine etc. experience, but only high school. If you were the employer, which candidate would you chose? The degree preference is there to show the airline that you are able to learn when they will train you, and it will make it easier for them to decide if they should spend money to train you.

Good luck. cheers!

Very True

[deflux]

Why don't you stop pointlessly bumping this thread, champ?

[ToFlyIsDivine]

hahaha...so much hatred and anger....
something must be done about that....perhaps may I suggest anger management?

Would somebody clip this guy's wings? Please?

Seriously, why would you keep this thread going when you've already made your school look bad enough? Maybe it's because you lack an outside perspective, but yes, you have made your school look bad.

After so many posts, no one has been able to say anything other than the fact that this program is more expensive than others when in fact it is offered at a discount.

Furthermore if you wanted a degree with your pilot licenses the costs would be at this level because you are simply getting the best of both worlds.

So I ask you how have I made my school look bad?

[mcrit]

OK, if you want to make your school and yourself look bad by keeping this thread at the top, cool.
For those of you that are considering taking this course, let me share with you my observations on the product produced. I've flown with quite a few grads of this course. There is no difference between UWO grads and grads from a regular flying school. In fact some flying schools, (BFC, and Toronto Airways come to mind off hand), produce better pilots. I suspect this is because UWO contracts out their flight training to a regular flight school. The instructors there are nothing special, (as opposed to Seneca where they have a lot of ex-military guys, and Confed where most of the instructors are ex airline/bush pilots).
As for the academics, take a look at ToFly, make your own call.

[sirtate]

if i make a reference to Hitler, will that kill this thread?

[L1011]

Are you comparing a college diploma with a university degree?
You just can't....at western, we have one of the best faculty staff in Canada they have the most in depth knowledge of the industry....all come from very rich backgrounds....

PROVE IT. Otherwise I just take your word for it, and Western is the bestest program EVER!

Also, I don't know of an airline that differentiates between a diploma from a flight college and a degree.

If you have studied Aviation Management, you would know that there are fundamentals in the Aviation industry that will never change and the knowledge you hold will never be outdated.

So true, because successful airlines never ever go out of business!

It’s alright if you can't afford quality education, I don't blame you.

Lower that nose there, bud.

They work hard to achieve their ratings and their degree at the same time. That is commendable and it’s not something everyone can handle.

I can think of several other things that are challenging that's "not something everyone can handle."

its the new age now, if you don't even have a degree, its hard to remain competitive....

Yup, and in this new age I will waltz right to the front of the line to all the operators that aren't hiring, and say "here's my degree, I'll start tomorrow."

There may not be many aviation companies, but I do know of several alum that have graduated and moved on to aviation companies as managers and management of AC Jazz even to Transport Canada.

What FTU doesn't have past students in these positions?

The point is your attitude is piss poor. And you represent Western with this attitude, which I don't think is fair to the school.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

Are you comparing a college diploma with a university degree?
You just can't....at western, we have one of the best faculty staff in Canada they have the most in depth knowledge of the industry....all come from very rich backgrounds....

PROVE IT. Otherwise I just take your word for it, and Western is the bestest program EVER!

Also, I don't know of an airline that differentiates between a diploma from a flight college and a degree.

If you have studied Aviation Management, you would know that there are fundamentals in the Aviation industry that will never change and the knowledge you hold will never be outdated.

So true, because successful airlines never ever go out of business!

It’s alright if you can't afford quality education, I don't blame you.

Lower that nose there, bud.

They work hard to achieve their ratings and their degree at the same time. That is commendable and it’s not something everyone can handle.

I can think of several other things that are challenging that's "not something everyone can handle."

its the new age now, if you don't even have a degree, its hard to remain competitive....

Yup, and in this new age I will waltz right to the front of the line to all the operators that aren't hiring, and say "here's my degree, I'll start tomorrow."

There may not be many aviation companies, but I do know of several alum that have graduated and moved on to aviation companies as managers and management of AC Jazz even to Transport Canada.

What FTU doesn't have past students in these positions?

The point is your attitude is piss poor. And you represent Western with this attitude, which I don't think is fair to the school.

Actually if you considered the posts prior to mine, you would understand that my attitude was more than fair. If I was met with a respectable crowd, I would be more than respectable and courteous, however I wasn't, so why blame me on the piss poor attitude.

[deflux]

Why don't you post your name and i'll send this link to the person responsible for the program. You should have no problem doing this based on your previous posts.

[Hedley]

No one cares where you get your pilot licence. No one
really even cares very much how well you fly. There's
a reason there are two pilots up front.

What matters is who you know. To a very much
lesser extent, your flight time after you got all your
licences (and how you spent it) might matter a little,
but not as much as you might think.

To help you understand, here is a little scenario:

Two pilots apply for a job. One is the reincarnation
of . Yeager, and hold a Phd in Aeronautical
Engineering from the London School of Economics.
He has 10,000 hours, 3 moon landings, every type
rating in the book, perfect tan, and perfect teeth.

The other pilot has no degree, 100 hours five times
over, lots of zits, a mouthful of cavities, and marginal
piloting skills. But his uncle is Chief Pilot.

Now, who do you think will get the job?

Morale of the story: choose your parents (and
the year you were born) very carefully.

[iflyforpie]

No one cares where you get your pilot licence. No one
really even cares very much how well you fly. There's
a reason there are two pilots up front.

What matters is who you know. To a very much
lesser extent, your flight time after you got all your
licences (and how you spent it) might matter a little,
but not as much as you might think.

To help you understand, here is a little scenario:

Two pilots apply for a job. One is the reincarnation
of . Yeager, and hold a Phd in Aeronautical
Engineering from the London School of Economics.
He has 10,000 hours, 3 moon landings, every type
rating in the book, perfect tan, and perfect teeth.

The other pilot has no degree, 100 hours five times
over, lots of zits, a mouthful of cavities, and marginal
piloting skills. But his uncle is Chief Pilot.

Now, who do you think will get the job?

Morale of the story: choose your parents (and
the year you were born) very carefully.

It's funny 'cause it's true.

[ToFlyIsDivine]

No one cares where you get your pilot licence. No one
really even cares very much how well you fly. There's
a reason there are two pilots up front.

What matters is who you know. To a very much
lesser extent, your flight time after you got all your
licences (and how you spent it) might matter a little,
but not as much as you might think.

To help you understand, here is a little scenario:

Two pilots apply for a job. One is the reincarnation
of . Yeager, and hold a Phd in Aeronautical
Engineering from the London School of Economics.
He has 10,000 hours, 3 moon landings, every type
rating in the book, perfect tan, and perfect teeth.

The other pilot has no degree, 100 hours five times
over, lots of zits, a mouthful of cavities, and marginal
piloting skills. But his uncle is Chief Pilot.

Now, who do you think will get the job?

Morale of the story: choose your parents (and
the year you were born) very carefully.

hahahaha....so true

[Stevo226]

I fly out of the same airport as these "god's gift to aviation" instructors and i've never heard so much whining in my life. Everyday there's a complaint about something, ie. "you're flying too close to me, please pick another practice area" (we were 8 miles and 2000' apart.). I can't count the number of times i've been cut off in the circuit at all the uncontrolled airports around.

Not to mention the fact that there's SOOOO many of these a-holes. Trust me, if you want to get into flying stay away from London, unless you want to fork out an extra 10 grand for waiting 20 minutes to take off ON EVERY FLIGHT.

However sitting on the ground listening to the "english" is pretty hilarious. Helps me relax between flights

[E-Flyer]

Graduates of the Commercial Aviation Management Program who select the flight training option will be licensed to fly commercial aircraft and be ready to assume management responsibilities, both on the ground and in the air.

Graduates can look forward to rewarding careers in airport and airline management, as well as employment as pilots for private or commercial airlines.

Some of our graduates graduate to become:
Air Law Specialists
AC Pilots
AC Jazz Pilots
Air Canada Jazz Management
CF Fighter Pilot
Cathay Pacific Pilot
Cathay Pacific Management
Transport Canada
Industry Canada
...Just to name a few....

Okay I have a few problems with these chunks in the ad. If you are targeting High School kids who have a small incentive about aviation and want to fly, the way this program was put through awareness is manipulating.

To the general public, "Commercial Aircraft" / Commercial Airplanes are the big jets that people fly on for vacations and business trips; they don't know that a simple C172 can be a commercial aircraft as well, because they probably don't even know what the definition of an aircraft is.

Graduates can look forward to employment as pilots for .... "commercial airlines." The assumption the general public who will be "interested" in this program get is that as soon as they're done training, Air Canada or an airline of the same infrastructure will hire them. These kids have probably not written TC tests yet and won't pay attention to tricky words such as "looking forward." However, in the context you have written this ad, "looking forward" seems like when they start in the first year, they will "look forward" to being employed as pilots for Commercial Airlines.

Some of our graduates graduate to become (the list of the airlines down there). That's a big fat No No, except for Jazz which normally looks into Seneca, and maybe Cathay who puts you into their Cadet Program to redo it all, no body that I know of will hire those graduates right off the bat. Also, let's say Cathay does hire them; in the ad, it seems like it's such an easy process. What about HKG residency? Chinese Medical? Conversions ... you make the ad seem as if they have many possibilities as low time pilots while when they face reality, they don't. It normally will boil down to instructing or going up north.

Maybe your assumption wasn't to promote the idea that they can get into airlines as soon as they graduate, but to the avid 17 year old who is planning his future, he will get the idea that he will be able to fly jets for Air Canada in 4 years. Not a fair way to manipulate students to join the program. You need to specify that after the program is done, they have opportunities to fly as commercial pilots in PROGRESSION TO airlines. Then list what a few of those opportunities are, such as.

- Instructing
- Working on The Ramp
- Flying Bush Planes

Etc...


Thought I would point that out.

Cheers

[TopperHarley]

As much as I dont want to flame the fire and insanity that this thread has become, I just want to comment about what E-Flyer said.

When I was inquiring and applying for the program and was in touch with the people at Empire, they were very clear about the type of jobs we'd expect upon graduating. No instructor there ever gave us the idea that we'd go straight to any airline. In fact, we were being told to expect to instruct for upwards of 5 years before finding your first real flying job or work the ramp for 2+ years. My first day of flying was Sept 11 2001, so you can just imagine the mood of everyone at the time. When I went through the program, our instructors were actually grads from Seneca, Confed, Sault, and a few from the London area who did it privately. We got some good perspectives about how things were done differently at the other schools.

We also had many guest speakers from various airlines in the industry, from Canada and abroad. They were also all very clear by telling us what to expect. Many of the people were blunt and told us a good majority wont find a job right away, it will be years before you see a high salary, etc. I never got the impression that smoke was being blown up my ass, and Im pretty sure none of my classmates did either.

Before Empire was taken over by the Asians, they also had a section on their website dealing with "frequently asked questions by students." Its no longer there as the school has changed ownership which is quite sad. The information was very valuable and was written up by myself along with some of the staff. We made every effort not to be misleading and to be as honest as possible in telling people what to expect. Some of the info is now found on the UWO site here: http://mos.uwo.ca/cam/pgFaq.html

As a few exerpts mention:

Q: Can I expect to be hired by a major airline when I graduate?
A: Most major airlines such as Air Canada currently require extensive flight experience of pilots before they legally can employ them. Some smaller airlines require between 1000 and 2500 hours of flight time of their entry-level pilots, while major airlines may require at least 5000 hours, including jet time. Generally, it takes between five and ten years to acquire the experience major airlines require. While some European and Asian airlines require less experience, you will need to acquire the certification necessary to fly commercially in other national or regional jurisdictions. Fortunately, Transport Canada licensing standards are widely considered to be among the highest in the world, and pilots trained in Canada generally do not have difficulty satisfying licensing requirements elsewhere (such as the FAA in the United States).

Q: What type of job can I expect after I graduate?
A: Many new graduates will first be employed as flight instructors. Others might choose to earn a float-plane rating and begin their careers flying float planes in more remote areas. Many smaller companies also hire new pilots into non-flying positions such as dockhands, aircraft refuellers, or dispatchers, as a first step towards adding them to the pilot roster. The amount of time you can expect to spend in a non-flying position varies from company to company.

[iflyforpie]

WTF is this thread doing back at the top?

DIE DIE DIE!!!

[L1011]

Okay I have a few problems with these chunks in the ad. If you are targeting High School kids who have a small incentive about aviation and want to fly, the way this program was put through awareness is manipulating.

To be fair, I have yet to see a post-secondary aviation institution that is not guilty of this in some way or another.

I know that I had a significant amount of smoke blown up my ass to start with where I went, but once I was in the program, the instructors and some staff were more realistic, like C-HRIS experienced (great post by the way). After all, these programs rely on funding, and need big admissions numbers to get it as sad as that may seem for the few who were misled.

except for Jazz which normally looks into Seneca

The Jazz award is at many other colleges across the country, don't forget to give them credit too!

PS - Sorry iflyforpie!

[E-Flyer]

As much as I dont want to flame the fire and insanity that this thread has become, I just want to comment about what E-Flyer said.

When I was inquiring and applying for the program and was in touch with the people at Empire, they were very clear about the type of jobs we'd expect upon graduating. No instructor there ever gave us the idea that we'd go straight to any airline. In fact, we were being told to expect to instruct for upwards of 5 years before finding your first real flying job or work the ramp for 2+ years. My first day of flying was Sept 11 2001, so you can just imagine the mood of everyone at the time. When I went through the program, our instructors were actually grads from Seneca, Confed, Sault, and a few from the London area who did it privately. We got some good perspectives about how things were done differently at the other schools.

We also had many guest speakers from various airlines in the industry, from Canada and abroad. They were also all very clear by telling us what to expect. Many of the people were blunt and told us a good majority wont find a job right away, it will be years before you see a high salary, etc. I never got the impression that smoke was being blown up my ass, and Im pretty sure none of my classmates did either.

Before Empire was taken over by the Asians, they also had a section on their website dealing with "frequently asked questions by students." Its no longer there as the school has changed ownership which is quite sad. The information was very valuable and was written up by myself along with some of the staff. We made every effort not to be misleading and to be as honest as possible in telling people what to expect. Some of the info is now found on the UWO site here: http://mos.uwo.ca/cam/pgFaq.html

As a few exerpts mention:

Q: Can I expect to be hired by a major airline when I graduate?
A: Most major airlines such as Air Canada currently require extensive flight experience of pilots before they legally can employ them. Some smaller airlines require between 1000 and 2500 hours of flight time of their entry-level pilots, while major airlines may require at least 5000 hours, including jet time. Generally, it takes between five and ten years to acquire the experience major airlines require. While some European and Asian airlines require less experience, you will need to acquire the certification necessary to fly commercially in other national or regional jurisdictions. Fortunately, Transport Canada licensing standards are widely considered to be among the highest in the world, and pilots trained in Canada generally do not have difficulty satisfying licensing requirements elsewhere (such as the FAA in the United States).

Q: What type of job can I expect after I graduate?
A: Many new graduates will first be employed as flight instructors. Others might choose to earn a float-plane rating and begin their careers flying float planes in more remote areas. Many smaller companies also hire new pilots into non-flying positions such as dockhands, aircraft refuellers, or dispatchers, as a first step towards adding them to the pilot roster. The amount of time you can expect to spend in a non-flying position varies from company to company.

Good Post Chris !

But then again, the experience you had with realistic figures was given to you ONCE you were in the program. You were okay with it. But it would suck for those individuals who come in with the intention to fly for airlines after a few years.

I hope you can see where I was going with the intent of the Ad.

Yes, most schools do this to attract students; it's quite sad.

And I was using Seneca as an example L1011

Cheers