The Dumbing Down of Aviation

[trey kule]

I myself am the type of person that has to play with everything in the plane and do weird stuff all the time. Ever try to fly and land your plane with just trim tabs??? Shoot even just think about different scenarios and what you would do if!!!!!!

that has to be one of the scariest comments I have ever read here. Please take some advice from an old guy. There are simulators and dedicated training sessions where you learn the different ways to deal with "scenarios" (an FTU/Instructor phrase). Not when you are operational. Someone who has to play with things and do "weird" stuff is a danger in the cockpit...a loose cannon who other flight crew members will not deem reliable.

I have no idea of what type of equipment you are operating, but do yourself, your fellow crew members and the innocents that ride along with you a favor and leave the playing and weird stuff out of operational flying.. You might just find that trying that weird stuff ends up resulting in a "scenerio" you did not plan on. Think of how you will explain to anyone how you decided to take a perfectly good airplane and crash it.

[C-GGGQ]

I have seen a flyingschool start a new student that it was painfully obvious would never hold a Cat I medical, and rack up 50hrs plus of pre-solo dual time in a hurry while the student was awaiting some medical results. Needless to say the student never passsed the medical, never got a student permit, but got robbed by the school and spent $5,000 plus on what was an obvious dead end. I have also seen flying schools string along guys that are simply not cut out for flying, but won't tell these students, cause all they see is more $$$. Pathetic!

Exactly why my instructor (CFI of the school) gave a prospective student all the info he could took them up for an intro flight and then told them "If you want to keep going, go get your medical. When you have it in hand come back and we'll set you up with your ground school materials and go from there" He wouldn't sell a person anything without a medical in hand just in case for some reason you couldn't pass it.

[Hedley]

I have no idea of what type of equipment you are operating

EngineGuy flies a Sukhoi, which has a truly eye-watering
Vg diagram, which defines it's limitations.

Sukhois are different than Boeings and Airbuses. Not
everyone flies Boeings and Airbuses. If you're going to
teach yourself to tumble, for example, what he is saying
makes perfect sense.

Oops. I used the term "Vg diagram". On the subject
of dumbing-down, is that term appropriate here?

http://www.faatest.com/books/FLT/Chapte ... iagram.htm

[Rubberbiscuit]

I have seen a flyingschool start a new student that it was painfully obvious would never hold a Cat I medical, and rack up 50hrs plus of pre-solo dual time in a hurry while the student was awaiting some medical results. Needless to say the student never passsed the medical, never got a student permit, but got robbed by the school and spent $5,000 plus on what was an obvious dead end. I have also seen flying schools string along guys that are simply not cut out for flying, but won't tell these students, cause all they see is more $$$. Pathetic!

Exactly why my instructor (CFI of the school) gave a prospective student all the info he could took them up for an intro flight and then told them "If you want to keep going, go get your medical. When you have it in hand come back and we'll set you up with your ground school materials and go from there" He wouldn't sell a person anything without a medical in hand just in case for some reason you couldn't pass it.

....the way it should be done! BTW! I wasn't painting all flight schools with the same brush as I am fully aware there are some great ones out there.

[trey kule]

Doc, I feel better already. I had visions of someone sitting in the cockpit of a two crew machine, or trying out some stupid stunt in a bush plane.

His own plane. By himself. Have at it with the weird stuff as long as no one unlucky in underneath you.

[Hedley]

Have at it with the weird stuff

Not everyone flies straight and level all the time!

Everyone doing this stuff is self-taught:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmRWRo-CrUY

Not sure what's weird about being upside-down ....
I guess that's another component of "dumbing-down"?

Anyways, if you know how to recover from an
inverted spin, or a tailslide, teaching yourself how
to tumble really isn't that big a deal.

[C-GGGQ]

....the way it should be done! BTW! I wasn't painting all flight schools with the same brush as I am fully aware there are some great ones out there.

Some great ones out there indeed unfortunately most are the puppymills you describe. Mine was a one man one plane outfit, (had an agreement for a twin for the multi stuff from a local charter ops). Only instructor I know of who would call to say "looks like its going to be a beautiful day. Plane free for a few hours this afternoon." He hounded me at times (sometimes unwelcome at 8am ) but without it i probably would have procrastinated and not felt like going if i didn't already book a flight. He knew that (he knew all his students) and he pushed where needed to get them done.

[xsbank]

Part of the problem with the training nowadays, with the possible exception of in-house training, it has become so expensive that the students will not pay for another week, another 10 hours or more books; it all means staying longer in the hotel, more commuting, more meals, more loans etc. and so the feel-good, extra training that puts the icing on the cake, so to speak, doesn't happen.

If it is advanced training, the companies will not pay or will not stand for their crews to be away and not-productive for any time longer than the bare minimum time to cover all the mandated subjects or minimum number of class-room/sim hours.

[trey kule]

hedley wrote

Not everyone flies straight and level all the time!

Dont worry Hedley. Just keep practicing and working on it and I am sure you will someday be able to do it.

[On the up]

The main problem I think is that FTU's will do anything to get their 'customers' through flight tests rather than teaching them about flying. Especially for commercial. Unfortunately, the eat or be eaten mentality required flight schools to survive will always mean they will do as little as possible to get the students to pass.

When was the last time a flight school told someone they probably should pick a new hobby/career?

[BoostedNihilist]

I think aviation has become "as dumb as you want it" I personally like to learn everything I can. I strive to memorize engine model numbers, POH information, common modifications of the airframes I am working with. So many people I have encountered throughout my training have no clue if they're behind a continental or a lycoming.

There has to be some personal responsibility. My motto in every endevour in my life has been "know what you should know so if you don't know you can find out" I Follow that to the pot of gold that is knowledge and it has not failed me yet. If you do not know what you 'should' know then you are royally screwed.

Beyond that I think there is a general dumbing down of society. You see it in every facet. The proposed changes to the ontario graduated licensing program is a prime example of the 'dumbing down' of society. I don't think aviation is specifically being dumbed down but more a byproduct of the dumbing down of society.

I was on my way back home from the FTU I attend (which by the way is definitely not in the 'dumbed down' category. excellent school) and I tuned into CBC and they had a show on about the loss of the 'canadian' skill set. An example they used is the fixing of a pipe. Every old man I know can solder copper pipe together... not one younger person I know (who is not a plumber) can do this. It's just another example. People aren't the same anymore. It used to be, when you wanted information you actually had to work for it... go to the library, open a book, effortfully process the information. Now, you go to google and type in a phrase and the information comes to you... the incentive to learn and remember information has been undermined by the ease of access.

Another example of the flight from knowledge I see here on avcanada is the chasing away of the old dogs when they criticize the younger set. It's sad that the input isn't at least considered. More often then not the criticism is taken as a personal insult and absolutely no productive learning takes place. I have not personally witnessed the 'puppy mill' mentality as I am not part of that industry, but I see it in every other facet of life. Kids today, do something once and assume that they know what they are doing. Society is trending towards compartmentalization, where skill is extricated in order to drive down the wages. Skilled labor costs more than semi-skilled labor and people are dumb and follow trends. Could there be a parallel here with the blind adherence to checklists I read complaints about on Avcanada? Perhaps, but it is the way society as a whole is going... sad really.

[C-GGGQ]

Every old man I know can solder copper pipe together... not one younger person I know (who is not a plumber) can do this. It's just another example. People aren't the same anymore.

This is true 99% of the time. I'm certain I wouldn't fix someone elses pipes or replace my own, could i fix a leak? sure. I've soldered pipes together in an old pool house at a camp cause it needed to be done. Didn't have to be pretty, just had to be sound. same with welding and other stuff I'm no pro (not by a long shot not even compared to my grandfather, though i weld a nicer bead than he does ) Most things should be taken care of by a professional (demolition is not one of them its too fun to pay someone through the nose for it) However I think anyone should be able to do basic stuff (change oil, replace a toilet or a sink, stop a leak,) but sadly most of my generation can't more of my fathers generation can but not all, most of my grandfathers generation can. My children will learn the same things my grandfather and father taught me cause i'll make a point of it but seeing kids in school now doesn't give me much hope for society overall.

[Cat Driver]

Another example of the flight from knowledge I see here on avcanada is the chasing away of the old dogs when they criticize the younger set.

Some of us are difficult to chase away.

It's sad that the input isn't at least considered.

Especially when some of us just happen to be quite conversant with the modern technology aircraft.

More often then not the criticism is taken as a personal insult and absolutely no productive learning takes place.

Quite often it is meant to be personal.

[MichaelP]

Sukhois are different than Boeings and Airbuses.

Really?
Tell that to Tim Barnby who's SU26 techniques probably saved the A340 from a lot of damage.

IMHO the PPL flight test, at least in the way it's conducted in the west, is a much tougher test than people had to take twenty or more years ago.
Knowledge level and piloting abilities tend to be higher overall.
But sometimes the instructors let the students down by not insisting on a higher level of basic airmanship and the perfection of skills such as landing the aeroplane.

Then there's the base product of growing up in today's society. Perhaps that is where the dumbed down sense has its origin.
Motor skills from computer games are not a bad thing for instrument flight, but combined with the sensations of real flight are not of any benefit VFR.
Such skills developed by playing games such as football (the real football not carrying it a few yards ), baseball, and even riding a bicycle are much more useful. The better students are the active ones.
I've even suggested dance lessons to many!
Sitting at a computer doesn't help your coordination.

As instructors we can sort these predumbed down students out by insisting on a level of perfection. Let's hear that stall warner going off before touchdown.
I believe that if you teach the student right, from the beginning, that student goes solo earlier than if you let things go as being alright.
I see so many bad habits, run-ups with the elevator down is one... Instructors in these aeroplanes have no sympathy with the machinery they are operating.
Looking after the aeroplane is everyone's responsibility and proper airmanship means lower operating costs as less maintenance is required.

So what has to change is the attitude towards what we do in the beginning stages of a students learning.
Start the airmanship discipline early.

[Liquid Charlie]

Every old man I know can solder copper pipe together.

Damn we aren't that old yet -- still enjoy sex 5 or 6 times a week -- what it really is - there are less "rural" grass roots people out there today -- the same goes for aviation

[wxguy]

I did my PPL flight test, and thought that I had failed several times throughout the exam, but ended up getting very good mark on it!
Not to say that I wasn't glad that I passed, but I would have failed myself on that flight without a question...

[BTD]

I did my PPL flight test, and thought that I had failed several times throughout the exam, but ended up getting very good mark on it!
Not to say that I wasn't glad that I passed, but I would have failed myself on that flight without a question...

I don't know you personally, but generally those students/pilots that feel this way about certain flights of theirs generally end up being the better pilots. Always looking for self improvement.

When I was instructing I could usually tell the students that would perform well most days. They were the ones who could come down from a flight and give themselves the post flight.

Also, if you are at the stage of your PPL flight test, you most likely haven't seen how other people fly when they are in the training environment. It's not always pretty.

BTD

[AuxBatOn]

Always looking for self improvement.

They were the ones who could come down from a flight and give themselves the post flight.

Shouldn't it ALWAYS be the case? If they can't self analyze their mistakes and/or seek improvent and they are by themselve, what's going to happen?? What's going to happen when they are Capt on an airplane and they can't find what the FO is doing wrong?

As a student, my instructors always asked me, eighter in the air after an exercice or, if there is no time/fuel in the air, on the ground to debrief myself on the manoevers we did. That way, it ensured I knew what was going on and that I had the proper motivation to continue.

[freakonature]

The instalation of 12 foot fence's had a lot to do with the dumbing down. There was a time when you could ride your bike out to the local airport and spend some time with the people of aviation. There was even a good chance you got to go for a ride with a local pilot. The knowlege you were able to access was endless. Today a young person riding his bike on an airport would be considered a threat. The $50 fam ride is the closest you will get today. And that is my 2...... Why is there no cent's key on a keyboard?

[Cat Driver]

That is worth far more than two cents.

It is probably one of the real reasons why the flying industry has changed.

[freakonature]

I guess the Young Eagle's would be the equivalent today?

[MichaelP]

Societal change, increased fear, cotton wool lifestyle, no risk, reduced competition - every child wins, children NOT riding bicycles (too dangerous), no glow plug motors (too noisy), computer games - no social interaction or air in lungs.

In plumbing I can still remember how to sweat a pipe joint.

Damn we aren't that old yet -- still enjoy sex 5 or 6 times a week

That's subject to examination... I bet the standard is not up to TC requirements if they had them.
In any case Victorians had a whole different idea.

On the subject: I suggest to all my students that they sit in their favourite chairs and replay the flight in their mind's eyes.
This is "Review" and by doing so they increase the value of every lesson many times over.

Physical fitness is important. I have also suggested to more than one student getting out on a bicycle and exercising while getting air in the lungs.
I do not suggest the gym, I think they are very unhealthy places. The great outdoors is best.
Dancing is also a great thing for pilots to do to improve their coordination.

[Cat Driver]

I've been teaching flying for a very long time.

Of all the teaching aids I have ever used the camcorder is beyond any doubt the best, not only so the student can keep the tapes and re-fly their trips forever if they want, it also can't be beat for debriefing.

[freakonature]

Have you got any video of a pilot sweating his pipe joint? Or for that matter a pilot dancing?

[Cat Driver]

Are you trying to get a picture of a pilot sweating his pipe joint?

That sounds a little kinky.

To add to what Michael was saying about improving co-ordination changing hands is a good exercise and when you can gain a stroke changing hands you have arrived.

And no I never met a stripper who was also a pilot ( strippers were the only dancers that I bothered to watch,)