Sky Dive Pay

[Diver Driver]

[quote="mag check"]

Ok, let me try a different way, are you an employee, or are you a pilot on contract to them?

If you are an employee, then by all means, demand at least minimum wage.
If you are contracting to them, then "suck it up buttercup".
quote]

It does't matter either way.

But if I were a "contractor" we would not be having this thread. Any contractor sets his own prices to cover his expenses and make a profit or he doesn't take the job.

I used the term "employee" for this thread earlier, but i am using the term loosely.

This is about what would be an acceptible "minimum", and "wage" or "load fee".

If you have any suggestions on this please tell us.

[mag check]

I used the term "employee" for this thread earlier, but i am using the term loosely.

This is about what would be an acceptible "minimum", and "wage" or "load fee".

If you have any suggestions on this please tell us.

Ok, so I would take that to mean that you are NOT an employee, ie: the employer is NOT taking taxes and cpp and such when you are paid.
This would make you a self employed contractor in the eyes of the law, and would require YOU to be responsible for all your income tax obligations.
This would also allow you certain tax write offs on your contracted rate of $5 per load flown, such as your vehicle, fuel, business phone, headset, etc. that are used for your business.

So I say, welcome to the world of small business ownership, you are now in the same boat as many other entrepreneurs, and if you can't survive, then go bankrupt, or get a job.

[Diver Driver]

Ok, so I would take that to mean that you are NOT an employee, ie: the employer is NOT taking taxes and cpp and such when you are paid.
This would make you a self employed contractor in the eyes of the law, and would require YOU to be responsible for all your income tax obligations.
This would also allow you certain tax write offs on your contracted rate of $5 per load flown, such as your vehicle, fuel, business phone, headset, etc. that are used for your business.

So I say, welcome to the world of small business ownership, you are now in the same boat as many other entrepreneurs, and if you can't survive, then go bankrupt, or get a job.

None of the pilots at our drop zone are on contract.

[mag check]

If you aren't on contract, and you say you are using the term employee "loosely", then what are you?
If you are an employee, demand at least minimum wage.
It's the law.
I believe the labour code is pretty clear on how, and how much an EMPLOYEE must make.

[Diver Driver]

[quote="mag check"]If you aren't on contract, and you say you are using the term employee "loosely", then what are you?
[quote]



Thanks again for all the posts. As I said earlier, what we presented to the DZ seems to be inline with most of the advice on this thread. Even you mag check.

I will let everone know how things go.

Diver Driver

[mag check]

Hey, no hard feelings

[tesox2]

One of the worst mistakes I ever made was accepting a job at a DZ in BC. I was told before I went up to work that I would not be paid a wage but my food and accommodations would be taken care of, I was so desperate for hours after spending 60 grand on my licenses. I spent my last few bucks beating the trail for a job all over western Canada, couldnt afford to go further...no jobs, no offers, nothing. What do you do? DO you let your license slip after working so f'en hard to get it?? DO you give up because you realize the industry isnt what the school told you? I tried the skydive thing and nearly paid with my life on several occassions. My thinking is this, and I should have known better, if your "boss" wont pay his pilot a wage what makes you think he will pay for proper maintenance or safety programs...the man I worked for had no regard for safety or maintenance, that was demonstrated when we got the AC in for a thorough inspection and realized that the owner had been doing most of the maintenance on the aircraft to avoid the high cost of an AME. I ended up sleeping in a delapidated trailer in April in the north, I ate one meal a day for nearly 4 months...I dont know how I ended up sinking to such a low point in my life, but I did, and like I said, nearly paid with my life several times.
I dont think that its as easy as saying pilots shouldnt accept the low wage or that were screwing eachother...I think the problem needs to be addressed by the labor board because transport wont do anything. Im happy to say, I will NEVER go near a 185 skydive operation ever again, I would never get in a plane with a low timer either...I think the commercial license does not properly prepare a pilot for the responsibility of being on their own...pilots should apprentice like any other trade, that way I think there would be higher standards and more respect for one another....
just my thoughts.

Cheers,
Tesox

PS anyone remember my post about my experience with said operator a year ago?

[Cat Driver]

.I think the problem needs to be addressed by the labor board because transport wont do anything.

Did you make any complaints to TC?

If you did what were the complaints about?

[mag check]

Pretty sure if you're running a skydive operation you could convince people to pony up a higher price for the service if you were employing good workers (including the pilots) to do the work than a bunch of volunteers.

If there were a bunch of planes full of skydivers crashing on takeoff being commanded by inexperienced pilots, then maybe. But pilot related skydive incidents are rare.

As long as the pilot gets the divers up and the plane down without pranging it, why does the operator care?

The operators do their risk/cost analysis. They know what the pilot is worth to them. And at a dime-a-dozen, they have a pocket full of dimes.

I'm not advocating for skydive operators to treat their pilots like crap. I'm just agreeing with the point that you shouldn't be acting the role.

Actually, I think I remember reading that more skydivers are killed in jump plane crashes than actual jumping accidents.
If my memory serves correctly, I think about 50 jumpers die in the US each year total, with the majority in takeoff crashes.
Still quite safe though, considering 80 people die from lightning strikes each year in the US.

[crazy_aviator]

Welcome to the real world ,,,there will ALWAYS be cheap fly-by-night operators AND there will always be the green , pimple faced, desperate pilot out there who will work for nothing . There is only 1 way to fix that situation ,,,regulation ! How far do you go in this country ? Does one regulate everything ? Economics in a free enterprise system means that supply and demand ultimately decides pay and conditions . Born into money ? have a rich airline daddy ? guess what ,,,your fasttracked to the front of the line !! Born into a poor family and without rich daddy pilots and you WILL work your ass off and generally near the back of the line to get there !!!

[Diver Driver]

Guys,

Slow down. I am sure there are some good and some bad DZ's all over. Problem is industry standard for pilot pay has been bad for a long time at all of them. The pilot compensation issue is just as much our fault a theirs.

By the way the DZ we fly at is one of the good ones. They don't compromise safety. If the PIC says it’s a no go then they don't jump. If any of the instructors or the safety officer are not satisfied with the conditions they don't jump.

[tesox2]

I would only incriminate myself for the things I did too...which were just as unprofessional as the owner.

Transport does not enforce pay, thats why they wont do anything.

[mattedfred]

information is power

inform yourself of your legal rights before you establish what your principles are. what labour regulations are you governed by? one can usually get 30 minutes free consultation with a lawyer so find one that specializes in labour law. once you have know your legal rights then use them to establish your principles before you submit your request for better T&Cs

although i feel sorry for the guy that had to live in a trailer in april, the problem with aviation is that every pilot thinks that they should be guaranteed a job once they complete their CPL. the fact that so many people choose to complete their CPL and are willing to work for free or very little is the real problem. if more of us either couldn't afford to complete our CPL or work for free or chose another career after we couldn't find a flying job then those that could afford it and were lucky to find a paying job would be better off.

we should not be using tax dollars to subsidize civilian flight training and we should not support commercial pilots earning less then the minimum required under canadian labour regulations.

although it may be true that many DZs would close down and jumpers would have to pay way more than they are now, those jumpers and their pilots would likely be much safer and better off all around. every canadian does not have the right to jump out of an aircraft and every commercial pilot does not have the right to a flying job.

[duck and run]

Couple of quick questions and comments, 1: if the pay is not what you expected why can't you just find a job elsewhere? 2: Is this a privately owend skydive outfit or a non profit? 3: Is flying your chosen career or just a hobby? Which goes back to the first question.
I guess I am wondering if you are not happy with the pay than why don't you find a job more suitable to what you expect ? If I was not happy with my job and not getting any benifits(flying hours etc.) I would leave plain and simple. my 2 cents

[Diver Driver]

Couple of quick questions and comments, 1: if the pay is not what you expected why can't you just find a job elsewhere? 2: Is this a privately owend skydive outfit or a non profit? 3: Is flying your chosen career or just a hobby? Which goes back to the first question.
I guess I am wondering if you are not happy with the pay than why don't you find a job more suitable to what you expect ? If I was not happy with my job and not getting any benifits(flying hours etc.) I would leave plain and simple. my 2 cents

All DZ's have to be ran like a professional business to make a profit.

I am not answering personal questions on this forum. If you would like to talk further you can pm me or send me an email at home. I am pretty sure you have the address.

[N2]

I did a brief stint and I mean brief with Skydive Toronto. They paided nothing to the pilots in the early nineties and after doing it for a few days I asked to be paid after all I was a commercially rated pilot and I thought this was a paying profession not a volunteer profession . They just laughed at me so I told them to shove their 182's where the sun doesn't shine. Funny thing is that while I was walking out I just about got trampled by guys running in the door to do it for free. Yep sometimes pilots are their own worst enemy's.

[station60]

Looking forward to ideas and opinions,

Diver Driver

Diver, is this a career place for you, or a stepping stone? If it's the latter then pay your dues and move on. Save your energy for the bigger fights ahead when you become the MEC rep for ALPA at Jazz or whatever the case may be. (not that I would *EVER* recommend going there) It's not worth your time to fight-the-man at the lower level. The amount of money you'll see out of this is negligable in the long run. Should he be paying you a $50 callout fee? Sure... will he? probally not. The reality is that you're not worth it (no offense) and that he can get away without doing it.

If this is a career move for you then definitly try to make your working place a better one by pushing for better standards. The odds are against you however seeing as though this is probally a small operation with a limited number of a/c. do your time and get out of there.

Pick your battles.

[tesox2]

I disagree, this "battle" might prove invaluable experience for later on...good for you, keep up the good work on trying to make positive change.

[Hedley]

I just about got trampled by guys running in the door to do it for free. Yep sometimes pilots are their own worst enemy's.

I'm quite surprised that enterprising DZ's don't charge
commercial pilots for each flight. As long as it's cheaper
than a rental, low-timers would probably do it.

[360montana]

I flew skydivers a bit... You should check the Okanagan... two DZ's opperate one Vernon and one Kamloops... both fly 182's and both pay $10 per load... check Alberta too they pay their Caravan pilot a flat monthly and per jumper. There are DZ's still on the old pay scale but only because the pilots keep perpetuating the poor pay... demand more... you will be suprized... if they value your service they will pay more. They also value a pilot that is an active skydiver. Your more valuable to them all around. You look to a DZ not as a career move, but as a means of building time to move towards a career. It's seasonal and you have to love the sport or your waisting your time. If you do choose this route it is a good way to build a little pic time and get into a real flying gig... and if you play your cards right (it's a small community) you could move down to the US and fly larger aircraft if you know the right people. Hands down, if you are a skydiver already, you have far better a chance to progress. It is a fun sport and a good time flying... it's not all bad. Just know your goal and why you are there and use it as a step forward in your flying career.
Blue Skies!

[oldncold]

consider this approach/

season is MAY 15/TO SEPT 15/

employer offers to pay xxx amount / you accept/

here is the difference he agrees to put xxx amount for the season into a escrow account to be drawn down monthly

there by he gets your services for the full season and you get fully paid.

this is the way aircraft are sold in many cases in the u.s.

consider this option. and check your own chute/ dive safe!!!

[Diver Driver]

consider this approach/

season is MAY 15/TO SEPT 15/

employer offers to pay xxx amount / you accept/

here is the difference he agrees to put xxx amount for the season into a escrow account to be drawn down monthly

there by he gets your services for the full season and you get fully paid.

this is the way aircraft are sold in many cases in the u.s.

consider this option. and check your own chute/ dive safe!!!

Please explain.

Our season is April to Nov.

[Baazoo]

At my Drop Zone:

The pay is 15$ per load for non permanent pilots (first year pilots) 3 loads minimum
400$ per week for permanent pilots (first year pilots)
650$ per week for permanent multi engine pilots (second year pilots generally)
5 days per week (1 free day of my choice and the other free day at the DZ choice)

[Diver Driver]

Well here is what has gone down at our DZ. This motion was voted on and passed by the DZ members

The Motion
The BOD makes the motion that the pilot pay for the 2009 year be increased from $5.00 a load to $7.00 a load, and the pilots be paid a mileage rate for travel to and from the dropzone based on the following:
1. Kilometers driven will be calculated from the center of the town the pilot lives in to dropzone as per Google Maps.
2. Calculations will be based on 25 mpg consumption rate.
3. Fuel rate will be based on the average fuel price for the season
Rate = (April 10th fuel price + Nov 15th fuel price)/24. We try our very best to book one pilot per day.
5. If a regular member drives the pilot out to the dropzone then no mileage is paid.
6. If a pilot comes out to fly and jumps that day as well, then he will not be paid the mileage for this day.
7. Days driven out to the dropzone is the responsibility of the pilot to total and submit on or before November 30th 2009. On November 30th 2009 there will be one entry into JumpRun for mileage claims, and the pilots will be mailed out their mileage cheques.

[Mustang06]

Bla bla bla bla bla bla
Everybody has something to say but nobody do anything and the problem just continues.
Let’s collect some money , hire a couple of lawyers, get some political support and start doing something, stop the verbal diarrhea and start the action.
The problem between us pilots is that we only care about how to protect our ass, how to get the job we want, we don’t care a shxxxt about the others.
We spend hours talking about others pilots and we take the first opportunity to criticize and to spread rumors about our colleagues.
We do anything to get the job we want even forgetting the most basic principles of respect and professionalism, until that continues these guys will be treating pilots like cheap labor.
Just for the fun of flying, oh come on!, we spent 50-60k in our training!!!