Right. Everyone these days wants to be a Digital Systems Manager on a plastic jet. Translation: computer data entry clerk. This is considered by the vast majority of pilots to be the pinnacle of aviation, and stick and rudder skills are something old-fashioned that only grumpy, smelly, unshaved old pilots who don't wear ties, care about.
What a Brave New World. Pardon me while I barf.
It would be great to hand an arrogant young 200TT pilot a stack of charts and ask him to ferry a no-electric, no-gyro cub, champ or taylorcraft across Canada. No handheld GPS, no handheld nav-com, just a chart, maybe a piece of string, a couple of pencils and a wristwatch. I'll bet the puppy-mill wonder wouldn't even be able to start it, let alone navigate to another airport. The look on his face would be priceless.
Soft Field Technique
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
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Shiny Side Up
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It sure seems that alot of the time we are nearly in agreement but use words and phrases that are confrontational and detract from the discussion. Arrogance isn't a byproduct of the number of hours you have it seems.
The thing is that we have to exist in today's environment. Can it be better - for sure. That's always the case. It could have been better 40 years ago as well.
Sure I see lots of less than perfect landings these days, but I don't see that a majority of people land on the nose wheel. In fact, most don't. I also see that with tail dragger pilots not every one always lands with the stick full back, but the majority do.
I'm not sure why anyone would get enjoyment out of asking someone to perform a task they had never been trained for - either in a flight school or on the job in the "real world"? Just because you have never been required to handprop doesn't mean you can't learn if you need to. It also doesn't prove that you're arrogant or poorly trained - it simply hasn't been necessary. As for navigating across Canada with a string and a couple of pencils - I doubt there are many pilots around today, regardless of experience, who would relish that thought. However, most 200 hour pilots could manage it. (In many cases, probably better than after they've "made it" and been flying IFR for a number of years.) Sure they would probably require help and assistance from more experienced fliers - just like they would have 40 years ago. Hopefully they would have the awareness that they need help and would seek it out. That's how they'd continue to learn.
5x5
The thing is that we have to exist in today's environment. Can it be better - for sure. That's always the case. It could have been better 40 years ago as well.
Sure I see lots of less than perfect landings these days, but I don't see that a majority of people land on the nose wheel. In fact, most don't. I also see that with tail dragger pilots not every one always lands with the stick full back, but the majority do.
I'm not sure why anyone would get enjoyment out of asking someone to perform a task they had never been trained for - either in a flight school or on the job in the "real world"? Just because you have never been required to handprop doesn't mean you can't learn if you need to. It also doesn't prove that you're arrogant or poorly trained - it simply hasn't been necessary. As for navigating across Canada with a string and a couple of pencils - I doubt there are many pilots around today, regardless of experience, who would relish that thought. However, most 200 hour pilots could manage it. (In many cases, probably better than after they've "made it" and been flying IFR for a number of years.) Sure they would probably require help and assistance from more experienced fliers - just like they would have 40 years ago. Hopefully they would have the awareness that they need help and would seek it out. That's how they'd continue to learn.
5x5
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Cat Driver
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I also see that with tail dragger pilots not every one always lands with the stick full back, but the majority do.
I seldom do except on grass.
I find wheel landings to be the safest.
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Seriously, few students are taught properly how to flare. Most either land flat or slam the nosewheel, and when they do hold the nose, they come down hard on the mains or bounce, but I think that if nosewheel a/c where available in your days Cat, students would have done the same thing.
We had nose wheel aircraft in my day, the problem we have now is to many instructors do not understand how to land themselves, let alone teach it.
I'm still waiting for flaperons to tell me why so many pilots land flat or on the nose wheel.
Cat
I seldom do except on grass.
I find wheel landings to be the safest.
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Seriously, few students are taught properly how to flare. Most either land flat or slam the nosewheel, and when they do hold the nose, they come down hard on the mains or bounce, but I think that if nosewheel a/c where available in your days Cat, students would have done the same thing.
We had nose wheel aircraft in my day, the problem we have now is to many instructors do not understand how to land themselves, let alone teach it.
I'm still waiting for flaperons to tell me why so many pilots land flat or on the nose wheel.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Shiny Side Up
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Its because so very few pilots truly understand the theory of flight portion behind landing the aircraft. They have but one fear - stalling too soon - which gets harped on right from the lesson in slow flight. This combines with the fact that forward vis is decreased in the flare as well. Not entirely mind you, but enough to freak out a novice. What students don't get, however is a good demonstration of what happens if you do land on the nose wheel - largely because its too dangerous even for an experienced instructor to attempt with a reliable margin of safety.
Secondly few are given a good example of how to correct a porpoise of ballooning incident - or a good demonstration on how much abuse the main gear will take. Which it must be noted is significantly more than the nose gear. I always ask them: If we have to put a majority of the landing force on which one should it be these two big tires attached to this chunk of spring steel? or should it be this little one? If that doesn't get the point across I simply resort to physical violence upon their person if they land it on the nose wheel.
Now given this problem as you percieve it Cat (And yes you're right people do have this bad tendancy of landing flat or on nose wheels) I find a good portion of private licence holders simply revert after getting outside my supervision - why is this one might ask - they were shown the right way after all. Some times its just plain laziness, I mean keeping pressure on that control column is soooooo hard in the roll. Some misguidedly do it as an attempt to make smoother landings - If you take a survey of several PPs who fly the same airplane you'll get a wide range of approach speeds and landing techniques. That and they're never put into a spot where the performance of their landing matters - I mean who buys a piper Arrow to fly into little grass strips? Bad habits and complacency are common - I mean refreshing up with an instructor once in a while costs money! And even if they do, its their airplane right? Who is some 20yr old to tell me the right way to fly MY airplane...
The odd bad instructor out there? I can buy that, but a whole generation of them out there? Not likely - after all, the performance of instructors is somewhat regulated or at the very least there's someone keeping an eye on them. Is anyone watching those fresh licence holders out there making sure they're staying up to snuff? Only when they wreck one.
But like I keep saying, its just a sign of the times, aviation isn't the only place where people keep somehow making it by without killing themselves.
Secondly few are given a good example of how to correct a porpoise of ballooning incident - or a good demonstration on how much abuse the main gear will take. Which it must be noted is significantly more than the nose gear. I always ask them: If we have to put a majority of the landing force on which one should it be these two big tires attached to this chunk of spring steel? or should it be this little one? If that doesn't get the point across I simply resort to physical violence upon their person if they land it on the nose wheel.
Now given this problem as you percieve it Cat (And yes you're right people do have this bad tendancy of landing flat or on nose wheels) I find a good portion of private licence holders simply revert after getting outside my supervision - why is this one might ask - they were shown the right way after all. Some times its just plain laziness, I mean keeping pressure on that control column is soooooo hard in the roll. Some misguidedly do it as an attempt to make smoother landings - If you take a survey of several PPs who fly the same airplane you'll get a wide range of approach speeds and landing techniques. That and they're never put into a spot where the performance of their landing matters - I mean who buys a piper Arrow to fly into little grass strips? Bad habits and complacency are common - I mean refreshing up with an instructor once in a while costs money! And even if they do, its their airplane right? Who is some 20yr old to tell me the right way to fly MY airplane...
The odd bad instructor out there? I can buy that, but a whole generation of them out there? Not likely - after all, the performance of instructors is somewhat regulated or at the very least there's someone keeping an eye on them. Is anyone watching those fresh licence holders out there making sure they're staying up to snuff? Only when they wreck one.
But like I keep saying, its just a sign of the times, aviation isn't the only place where people keep somehow making it by without killing themselves.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Cat Driver
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Shiney side said...
The odd bad instructor out there? I can buy that, but a whole generation of them out there? Not likely -
There may not ba a whole generation out there but there are far to many...
...when I owned a school of the twenty or more instructors who worked for me as far as I can remember not one of them could teach a student how to land properly when the started to work for me.
I'm still waiting for flaperons to tell me why so many pilots land flat or on the nose wheel.
Cat
The odd bad instructor out there? I can buy that, but a whole generation of them out there? Not likely -
There may not ba a whole generation out there but there are far to many...
...when I owned a school of the twenty or more instructors who worked for me as far as I can remember not one of them could teach a student how to land properly when the started to work for me.
I'm still waiting for flaperons to tell me why so many pilots land flat or on the nose wheel.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Shiny Side Up
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The your experience has been different than mine in which the biggest offenders are your private pilots, especially those in their first 100 hours past the private. On the other side, in your day its possible that so many of them learned on taildraggers that they were unable to fly a simple nose wheel aircraft....Cat Driver wrote:
...when I owned a school of the twenty or more instructors who worked for me as far as I can remember not one of them could teach a student how to land properly when the started to work for me.
Careful Cat, in most forums that's considered bad etiqette and often referred to as "baiting". Not that I care, but if flaperons takes it, you might then be considered a master baiter, so to speak.I'm still waiting for flaperons to tell me why so many pilots land flat or on the nose wheel.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Cat Driver
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Naw, Shiny Side they wern't tailwheel pilots I had the school from 1986 until 1991 and even leased a J3 at one point but the instructors would not teach in it, so I had to get rid of it.
For what it is worth all of those instructors had the same fault in the method they taught landings, with the result that the students landed flat in the Cessnas....by the way I also had a helicopter section with a new R22 on floats..
Hopefully we are all masterbators, its healthy.
Flaperons comes on strong so I was hoping he would not need baiting.
When you have such strong opinions one would hope you could back them up with facts...right flaperons?
Cat
For what it is worth all of those instructors had the same fault in the method they taught landings, with the result that the students landed flat in the Cessnas....by the way I also had a helicopter section with a new R22 on floats..
Hopefully we are all masterbators, its healthy.
Flaperons comes on strong so I was hoping he would not need baiting.
When you have such strong opinions one would hope you could back them up with facts...right flaperons?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Stan_Cooper
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Story time: "So the winds were out of the north, 22 gusting 28, and we were landing on 06 left, it was a pretty challenging approach... The seven sixty seven sure is a beautiful airplane to fly in a crosswind though. It was fun."hz2p wrote:Right. Everyone these days wants to be a Digital Systems Manager on a plastic jet. Translation: computer data entry clerk. This is considered by the vast majority of pilots to be the pinnacle of aviation, and stick and rudder skills are something old-fashioned that only grumpy, smelly, unshaved old pilots who don't wear ties, care about.
I think airline pilots still consider themselves to be pilots.
Also, I fly Katanas with no autopilots. I do wear a tie, I'm not grumpy, and I guess I occasionally smell. Where do I fit in? Am I still a pilot, or am I an analog systems technician on a plastic prop?
I don't think any 'digital systems managers' get so sarcastic when they talk about any other group of pilots, so why the hate?
Domination: Coming soon to a city near you.
Last time I did a dual prof check in a 172, it was with a 20+K hr class 1, DFTE, Ex-airline pilot, who is semi-retired and does a whack of flight testing for the local schools. When I landed he spontaneously commented on the fact that I touched down on the mains with the nose off the ground. His comment, "almost nobody lands like that anymore." His comment is certainly supported by my own observations at my local aerodromes.
When I learned to fly in the 70's, it was on a 172 and I was taught to land on the mains. Everyone else in my group of 30 air cadets, split between two schools, was also taught to land on the mains and we all completed the course in the 35 hours of the day. It had nothing to do with tail draggers or having experienced instructors. Most were just like today's, low time class 4's or 3's, no tail dragger in their logs, and working their entry job to the industry.
So what's changed?
When I learned to fly in the 70's, it was on a 172 and I was taught to land on the mains. Everyone else in my group of 30 air cadets, split between two schools, was also taught to land on the mains and we all completed the course in the 35 hours of the day. It had nothing to do with tail draggers or having experienced instructors. Most were just like today's, low time class 4's or 3's, no tail dragger in their logs, and working their entry job to the industry.
So what's changed?
Oh, sorry Cat. I was out pounding noseweels into the ground.
The answer to your query, I'm sure, is that it's my fault somehow.
Based on your non-stop whining about how it's wrong to transfer your gaze towards the far end of the runway as you approach the flare, I'm going to guess that's what you're looking for. Can't say that I agree with you, though.
I'd bet the real reason is because they're flying with their heads instead of their asses. But I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong. Good for you.
Thing is, I haven't come across this consistent problem you're talking about. Sure, I've seen some bad landings in my time (and it usually comes down to attitude), but not to the extent that you're going on about. Maybe it's something to do with how you all teach out west.
Enlighten me, O Master of the Skies. Or at least give it your best shot.
The answer to your query, I'm sure, is that it's my fault somehow.
Based on your non-stop whining about how it's wrong to transfer your gaze towards the far end of the runway as you approach the flare, I'm going to guess that's what you're looking for. Can't say that I agree with you, though.
I'd bet the real reason is because they're flying with their heads instead of their asses. But I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong. Good for you.
Thing is, I haven't come across this consistent problem you're talking about. Sure, I've seen some bad landings in my time (and it usually comes down to attitude), but not to the extent that you're going on about. Maybe it's something to do with how you all teach out west.
Enlighten me, O Master of the Skies. Or at least give it your best shot.
It's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone think you're a fool, than to open it and prove them right.
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Cat Driver
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flaperons, I hope for the sake of aviation that you are not an instructor because your explination to a serious question shows you are more ignorant of the art of flying than I previously thought.
You say :
" I'd bet the real reason is because they're flying with their heads instead of their asses. But I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong. Good for you.
Thing is, I haven't come across this consistent problem you're talking about. Sure, I've seen some bad landings in my time (and it usually comes down to attitude), but not to the extent that you're going on about. Maybe it's something to do with how you all teach out west. "
However when you added the following to your post I have thought about it and decided that I would give you dual instruction in an attempt to teach you how to fly, but only for your students sake if you can prove you are an instructor.
" Enlighten me, O Master of the Skies. Or at least give it your best shot. "
If your interested my hourly flying rate is 250.00 euro per hour, which at this mornings exchange rate is $403.80 Canadian. You of course will have to rent or borrow the airplane.
I will be leaving for Europe on March 18 so let me know if you will be able to get out here before I leave.
Cat
You say :
" I'd bet the real reason is because they're flying with their heads instead of their asses. But I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong. Good for you.
Thing is, I haven't come across this consistent problem you're talking about. Sure, I've seen some bad landings in my time (and it usually comes down to attitude), but not to the extent that you're going on about. Maybe it's something to do with how you all teach out west. "
However when you added the following to your post I have thought about it and decided that I would give you dual instruction in an attempt to teach you how to fly, but only for your students sake if you can prove you are an instructor.
" Enlighten me, O Master of the Skies. Or at least give it your best shot. "
If your interested my hourly flying rate is 250.00 euro per hour, which at this mornings exchange rate is $403.80 Canadian. You of course will have to rent or borrow the airplane.
I will be leaving for Europe on March 18 so let me know if you will be able to get out here before I leave.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat Driver wrote:
If your interested my hourly flying rate is 250.00 euro per hour, which at this mornings exchange rate is $403.80 Canadian. You of course will have to rent or borrow the airplane.
Cat
No offence, but who would be so stupid to pay that much for freaking flight instruction?
Timing is everything.
Hint: Cat Driver (hint hint) isn't riding around in the right seat of a buck-fifty.
There's an outfit near Toronto that offers aerobatic flight instruction in an Extra 300. I think they charge around $750/hour, which is probably $500/hour for the aircraft, and $250/hour for the instructor. I guess there aren't a whole lot of people who are qualified to give aerobatic instruction on an Extra 300
There's an outfit near Toronto that offers aerobatic flight instruction in an Extra 300. I think they charge around $750/hour, which is probably $500/hour for the aircraft, and $250/hour for the instructor. I guess there aren't a whole lot of people who are qualified to give aerobatic instruction on an Extra 300
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Right Seat Captain
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Oh I don't know, lets think about why Cat is called Cat Driver.Tango01 wrote:Gee, why don't you go to his website and tell me what is the first thing you see in the centre of your monitor.hz2p wrote:Hint: Cat Driver (hint hint) isn't riding around in the right seat of a buck-fifty.
That ain't no Extra 300 boy
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Cat Driver
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"No offence, but who would be so stupid to pay that much for freaking flight instruction? "
_________________
Only those who need the instruction and can afford it, usually people who buy warbirds and can not get authority to fly them without receiving instruction form an instructor who is approved by the insurance company to give said instruction.
Also of course there is also the regulatory body in whatever country that the candidate has the aircraft registered in. To give dual instruction in any country requires the approval of their regulatory body and is very expensive and difficult for a non citizen of that country to receive.
That is a couple of reasons for the rate I charge, then for me to keep flying my customers must be satisfied that the instruction was worth the cost. In this business everything depends on reputation and referrals by former clients.
Now if only I could find someone who could take over my business I would love to retire and finish building my Amphibious Cub and just play with that for fun.
Oh I forgot to mention I will also continue to fly in the airshow circuit in Europe for entertainment , it would be a pity to just allow my CAA air display authorization to just expire....after all a guy has to have some fun.... All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy..
Cat
_________________
Only those who need the instruction and can afford it, usually people who buy warbirds and can not get authority to fly them without receiving instruction form an instructor who is approved by the insurance company to give said instruction.
Also of course there is also the regulatory body in whatever country that the candidate has the aircraft registered in. To give dual instruction in any country requires the approval of their regulatory body and is very expensive and difficult for a non citizen of that country to receive.
That is a couple of reasons for the rate I charge, then for me to keep flying my customers must be satisfied that the instruction was worth the cost. In this business everything depends on reputation and referrals by former clients.
Now if only I could find someone who could take over my business I would love to retire and finish building my Amphibious Cub and just play with that for fun.
Oh I forgot to mention I will also continue to fly in the airshow circuit in Europe for entertainment , it would be a pity to just allow my CAA air display authorization to just expire....after all a guy has to have some fun.... All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy..
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Tango 01 :
The Aerobat in my web site is for sale, I converted it to a taildragger to use for basic aerobatic training because it is relatively inexpensive to operate.
However I had a problem with TC and they have denied me the right to work in Canada...so rather than just let that Aerobat sit unused I am selling it.
You seem to be making an issue about the type of aircraft that I fly and I wonder just what your problem is with this? Has it occured to you that I have flown aircraft you may not have even seen pictures of?
For your information we have an Extra 300 in the group that I fly with in Europe, I personally choose to fly the Pitts S2B.
Tell you what, I'll make you a deal.. you and flaperons come on out to Nanaimo and rent a Cessna 172 and I'll see if I can improve your flying skills... I will even give you a brake on the cost and make it a flat $400.00 Canadian per hour.
Cat
The Aerobat in my web site is for sale, I converted it to a taildragger to use for basic aerobatic training because it is relatively inexpensive to operate.
However I had a problem with TC and they have denied me the right to work in Canada...so rather than just let that Aerobat sit unused I am selling it.
You seem to be making an issue about the type of aircraft that I fly and I wonder just what your problem is with this? Has it occured to you that I have flown aircraft you may not have even seen pictures of?
For your information we have an Extra 300 in the group that I fly with in Europe, I personally choose to fly the Pitts S2B.
Tell you what, I'll make you a deal.. you and flaperons come on out to Nanaimo and rent a Cessna 172 and I'll see if I can improve your flying skills... I will even give you a brake on the cost and make it a flat $400.00 Canadian per hour.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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shitdisturber
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Not a lot of instructors give lessons in recovery from inverted spins either, which is one of many things they do. It doesn't hurt that they're former Hornet pilots with combat time under their belts either. One of them's a good friend, hell of a pilot; anybody who can, should go up with them.hz2p wrote:Hint: Cat Driver (hint hint) isn't riding around in the right seat of a buck-fifty.
There's an outfit near Toronto that offers aerobatic flight instruction in an Extra 300. I think they charge around $750/hour, which is probably $500/hour for the aircraft, and $250/hour for the instructor. I guess there aren't a whole lot of people who are qualified to give aerobatic instruction on an Extra 300
Pitch at Air Combat is one of the good guys - I think he's now an ICAS ACE.
Speaking of inverted spins, I was saddened to see that George Twente just died in his Model 12 with a pax at Meridian, Mississippi, where we did an airshow last spring. Spun in, according to reports. I wish he had a bit more aerobatic instruction.
A friend of mine just bought a Sea Fury - I'm not sure how many people here would know what they are. They have a direct operating cost of US$1900 per hour for just gas and oil. $250 per hour for an instructor to teach you what you need to know to keep you alive seems pretty cheap to me.
.: you gotta stop by Eastern Ontario in the spring, and have some fun with us!
Speaking of inverted spins, I was saddened to see that George Twente just died in his Model 12 with a pax at Meridian, Mississippi, where we did an airshow last spring. Spun in, according to reports. I wish he had a bit more aerobatic instruction.
A friend of mine just bought a Sea Fury - I'm not sure how many people here would know what they are. They have a direct operating cost of US$1900 per hour for just gas and oil. $250 per hour for an instructor to teach you what you need to know to keep you alive seems pretty cheap to me.
.: you gotta stop by Eastern Ontario in the spring, and have some fun with us!
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shitdisturber
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Actually Pitch is a great guy; if you're flying with him, drinking with him, deployed with him or whatever. He even came out and said it was his fault when I accidentally started his car on fire.Hedley wrote:Pitch at Air Combat is one of the good guys - I think he's now an ICAS ACE.
Not to mention introducing me to some attractive single english girls as a guy who flew paratroopers, skydrivers paratroopers, so he stretched the truth a bit! A true friend anyway. 
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Cat Driver
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Tango 01 :
Why do you think I am arrogant? do you think that trying to give free advice to low time instructors makes me arrogant?
Quote from you.
Besides, what skills can I possibly pick up from such an arrogant person like yourself?
T01
Probably none due to your preconceived opinion of me.
PS: There must be a reason you're not allowed to work here.
_________________
Yes there is however it has nothing to do with my qualifications as a pilot or having ever been accused of any contrevention of CAR's.
To put it simple so you can understand, I had a problem with a TC Inspector abusing his authority, I followed proper channels and laid a complaint.
The problem was the Regional Director Civil Aviation being a dishonest moral degenerate decided to protect his inspector and bankrupted my Canadian company by breaking the rules to do it.
So I trust thet helps clarify things for you?
Cat
Why do you think I am arrogant? do you think that trying to give free advice to low time instructors makes me arrogant?
Quote from you.
Besides, what skills can I possibly pick up from such an arrogant person like yourself?
T01
Probably none due to your preconceived opinion of me.
PS: There must be a reason you're not allowed to work here.
_________________
Yes there is however it has nothing to do with my qualifications as a pilot or having ever been accused of any contrevention of CAR's.
To put it simple so you can understand, I had a problem with a TC Inspector abusing his authority, I followed proper channels and laid a complaint.
The problem was the Regional Director Civil Aviation being a dishonest moral degenerate decided to protect his inspector and bankrupted my Canadian company by breaking the rules to do it.
So I trust thet helps clarify things for you?
Cat
Last edited by Cat Driver on Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
