Cariboo Gear UP?

[trey kule]

I don't consider it "harsh" judgment, at all. You've got a trained crew "forgetting" to lower the gear. Come on. In your book, that's somehow acceptable? It ain't in mine. There are a few simple things a pilot is expected to do correctly EVERY time. Putting the gear down is one of them.
Many (not just you there, Sidebar) subscribe to the horse shit line that "it could happen to anybody...". I don't buy into that line of crap. There are many of us that it will never happen to. Because, we don't think it's Okay....on ANY lev

Aw come on Doc. Stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel.

I agree 100% with you. Two crew. supposedly properly trained (and NC does do that), professional and following SOP's...and they forgot the gear. Let me repeat. Two crew.
They made a stupid stupid mistake. Period!
Their only saving grace would be, in my opinion, if they dont try to rationalize out of it.Accept you are not the professional you claimed to be and you may never do it again and become the professional. Rationalize it, like so many here seem to want to do, and you are setting yourself up for a repeat...after all, it wasnt your fault...you were tired, new to the left seat, enjoying the ride..and....as a last ditch rationale...or the old, there is only two kind of pilots: those who have and those who will land gear up.
I have three family members with tens of thousands of hours of flying time who are all retired and never once landed a plane gear up..It does not happen to everyone. And while we all make mistakes, those that wont admit they did something stupid are destined to make mistakes again.

[Carrier]

It does happen to the bigger planes. Here’s some info on another by an airliner, this time a DHC7:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 20060501-0
http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/ ... beria.html

[xsbank]

Two trained and current pilots 'forgot' to lower the gear. I don't happen to think that any of us are immune to this type of accident and the recent spate of accidents, all relating to 'human factors' can only be a reinforcement to this fact.

I am in no way condoning, excusing or deflecting the blame here, they fzcked up for sure, but why? They obviously were doing something wrong as they crashed. So what happened? Was the cockpit 'sterile' or were they talking about the new girly dispatcher? Did one pilot say "I'm outside" and the other say, "I'm inside" or were they both staring at the runway? Did somebody say "Gear down landing check" at the first dot or were they busy shooting a tight circuit and there was no 'reminder' to drop the gear? Without the drag of the gear they were probably carrying extra thrust. Was it a non-standard approach?

I am of the opinion that the crew had to be of average pilot intelligence to have convinced the CP they were ready to fly this aircraft so why did they make such a sad mistake?

As bad as it looks, there has to be a reason for this accident as no rational person would wish to commit career suicide like this and cost his employer so much dosh.

So, instead of gnashing out teeth and calling names, doesn't it make more sense to try and figure out why this silly accident continues to re-occur, and why ALL of the accidents that we read about nowadays have happened to somebody else before?

At least some originality might be employed to try and kill off our passengers in a new, imaginative way? Inverted? Backwards?

Try and get it right out there. Moving through the air at high speed means that you've got to get it right. If you don't, you or your passengers will die or at the very best, you break the tin and lose your job. Part of being a professional is self-examination - are you 'up' to your job? Do you need some help, retraining, time off, a different copilot, more sleep, less beer, some maintenance?

'Human factors' mean that YOU have to look after YOU.

[Jastapilot]

I'd like to hear what Strega has to say about all this.

[Legacy]

When does duty rest/period have to due with lowering the gear. All you bleeding hearts out there, put some cake in your cake hole. You guys have no history of the crews rest period or training prior to this accident. Quit beating a dead horse.

Please follow the checklist..that is what it is there for.

end rant

With all due respect Ray Ban, you haven't taken human factors have you. Ever hear of a 15 hour work day has the same effect as having 3 drinks? Being tired enough, you can do the checklist and look down and your brain will tell you that there is 3 green (one green in the case of the straight 100) meanwhile there is no green lights at all.

One thing that really annoys me about pilots is a lot of us have the "well it wouldn't happen to me" or "well those pilots should have.........". If you weren't there then BE QUIET. For people like Trey Kule, have you ever forgot to turn on a bleed air, or arm an auto-ignition, or auto-feather or something of the sort. If you say no to that question you and I both know you are full of it. So let's say you forgot to arm the auto feather. Does that give me the right to say you aren't a professional? Not arming an auto-feather for example can have a lot more disastrous outcome than a gear up in some airplanes. Let's put you in a oxygen deprivation tank. Let me ask you some questions and see if you get them right. If you don't, can i call you a moron? Because really, according to some of you Human factors don't exist, right? Having an opinion is OK. Being opinionated just shows you don't have an open mind........IMHO.

[nimbostratus]

All I can say is that I would never put my family in the back of an airplane with a pilot up front who denies that anything bad can ever happen to him/her.
The opposite attitude is a much safer one.

My opinion.

[Legacy]

And that is a good opinion.

[Doc]

All I can say is that I would never put my family in the back of an airplane with a pilot up front who denies that anything bad can ever happen to him/her.
The opposite attitude is a much safer one.

My opinion.

Denying that ANYTHING bad will ever happen, and denying that you will ever forget to physically lower the landing gear, are miles apart. "Something bad" can always happen. To anyone. At any time.

[AuxBatOn]

All I can say is that I would never put my family in the back of an airplane with a pilot up front who denies that anything bad can ever happen to him/her.
The opposite attitude is a much safer one.

My opinion.

Denying that ANYTHING bad will ever happen, and denying that you will ever forget to physically lower the landing gear, are miles apart. "Something bad" can always happen. To anyone. At any time.

And that something bad, doc, as moronic as it sounds, can be forgetting to lower the gear.

[double-j]

Interesting topic.

Was it not the captains first flight off line indoc? I am sure all of us can remember this feeling, not only flying from a different seat but the whole 'big picture' just got alot bigger.

Also someone pointed out this may have been a case of a 'hot and high' approach. Not saying it was but it may explain the gear horn being silenced until the flare.

My big question...and this includes you doc, is do you 703,704, operators have a stable approach criteria, a operational mandate that if the airplane is not stable on flap setting, speed and slope a missed approach will be conducted? Regardless of VMC/IMC conditions?

jj

[ahramin]

Xsbank, you nailed it on the head.

There seem to be two misguided points of view here:

1. Good job no one got hurt. This could happen to anyone.

2. It happened because the pilots were morons.

Both are wrong. The human factors leading to a gear up landing can also lead to a CFIT. Very experienced and otherwise competent pilots have allowed distractions to cause an accident through complacency and getting away with it many times before.

[Doc]

Xsbank, you nailed it on the head.

There seem to be two misguided points of view here:

1. Good job no one got hurt. This could happen to anyone.

2. It happened because the pilots were morons.

Both are wrong. The human factors leading to a gear up landing can also lead to a CFIT. Very experienced and otherwise competent pilots have allowed distractions to cause an accident through complacency and getting away with it many times before.

That's so "touchy, feally" it makes me want to toss my cookies.
Until we can put all the warm and fuzzy, politically correct terms and attitude on the "back burner" and just admit to the simple fact that it was really stupid, these things will continue to not only happen, but will be "explained" away.....because, all the contributing factors made me do it. Bull crap.
"I screwed up! ME! I did it to myself! I have NO excuses!"
Wonder why nobody is "man" or "woman" enough to admit this?

[double-j]

My big question...and this includes you doc, is do you 703,704, operators have a stable approach criteria, a operational mandate that if the airplane is not stable on flap setting, speed and slope a missed approach will be conducted? Regardless of VMC/IMC conditions?

Anyone? Doc?


.... and if so, have you ever continued an unstable approach, confident you can 'salvage' it?

jj

[Mrs.Robinson]

double -j:

3 703 companies I have worked for had it, and 2 704

[Doc]

My big question...and this includes you doc, is do you 703,704, operators have a stable approach criteria, a operational mandate that if the airplane is not stable on flap setting, speed and slope a missed approach will be conducted? Regardless of VMC/IMC conditions?

Anyone? Doc?


.... and if so, have you ever continued an unstable approach, confident you can 'salvage' it?

jj

I try to stay away from "stabilized" approaches. If I'm too stable, I tend to suck at the landing. Stables are for horses!
But, to answer your question....no.

[pelmet]

[quote="Lurch"]

I don't recall any of the Airlines ever having this problem. When was the last time you heard of a 747 accidentally landing with the gear up?

[/quote]

23 years 5 and one half months ago actually.

Date: 04 FEB 1986
Type: Boeing 747-282B
Operator: Pakistan International Airlines - PIA
Registration:AP-AYW
Total: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 264

Narrative:
Belly landed after the crew forgot to lower the landing gear.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19860204-0

[Sidebar]

Until we can put all the warm and fuzzy, politically correct terms and attitude on the "back burner" and just admit to the simple fact that it was really stupid, these things will continue to not only happen, but will be "explained" away.....because, all the contributing factors made me do it. Bull crap.

Doc,

My attitude and any warm and fuzzy PC terms have been stowed on the back burner for the time being. My understanding of your point is that if we "just admit to the simple fact that it was really stupid", gear up landings are less likely to occur. Please correct me if I've got it wrong. I don't think gear up landings are acceptable. However, I don't understand how labelling people as morons or really stupid helps in preventing gear up landings in the future.

What do we do, put some kind of additional screening in place to weed out morons and really stupid people? The current licensing process already eliminates really stupid people who can't pass written exams and flight tests. Commercial operators already have extensive training programs and PPCs to further weed out those morons and really stupid people who slip through the licensing process.

What else do we do? How do we get rid of the morons and really stupid people before they injure or kill somebody? Or land gear up? Help us out here.

[rigpiggy]

What do we do, put some kind of additional screening in place to weed out morons and really stupid people? The current licensing process already eliminates really stupid people who can't pass written exams and flight tests. Commercial operators already have extensive training programs and PPCs to further weed out those morons and really stupid people who slip through the licensing process.

What else do we do? How do we get rid of the morons and really stupid people before they injure or kill somebody? Or land gear up? Help us out here.

Do you mean things like the psych test/ career totter/extra sim time"train to standard" etc.....

There are only two kinds of pilots 1.those that have 2. those that might

[Doc]

Sidebar....no. Admitting it's a stupid, moronic act, will not make it happen any less often. But, it will remove the "I didn't do it all by myself. There are other factors to blame." excuses so many like to fall back on.
This isn't like forgetting to turn on the auto feather, prop sync, auto ignition, leaving the flaps at approach or leaving the flaps down after landing.
I don't think that everything a pilot does that can be labeled "stupid" necessarily requires "contributing factors". And, not every stupid thing has the overwhelmingly disastrous results as leaving the gear stowed during the landing stage of a flight.
Therefore, I must label the gear up landing as "beyond stupid".

[Flybaby]

The big argument of forgetting other things can lead to an accident is not a very good analogy for forgetting your gear because that will cause an accident.

[Finn47]

Some years ago I took the company Aztec & went for a short ride, alone. Levelled off & set for cruise and after a minute or so started wondering why the plane was some 20 knots slower than usual. One look down told me the gear handle was still down...

If that makes me a moron in somebody´s eyes then so be it

[pika]

I've reread the thread from the beginning and nowhere do I see anybody excusing the incident. If I've missed where somebody says it's ok to land gear up please someone point it out for me. Nobody was injured so consider that a bonus.

Most manufacturers put a gear horn in their airplanes to warn of an unsafe landing configuration. It's either to remind "morons" to lower the gear or to mitigate the risk of a crew not completing an essential step. Choose your viewpoint based on your experiences. Either way it's the same result but one is big picture thinking and one is small picture thinking. Accident reports are written to determine cause; not fault. CVR's and FDR's are installed to help determine cause, not fault. Flight Data Analysis is a proactive measure to track certain events a company may not want occuring in its fleet. Again, it's cause, not fault. If a trend develops expect to review the forbode procedure next recurrent. You might even expect an SOP or FOM ammendment which reflects a change of company procedures or policies to further try and eliminate the undesired trend.
If the above mentioned resources are used properly we can all learn from the mistakes of others. The "morons" forgot the gear is as about as reactive a statement as it gets and it contributes nothing to developing or further enhancing safety (which I think is what we are all striving for?).

As far as stabilized approaches go... We all know that a stabilized approach should lead to a good landing. If your company has no stabilized approach criteria put it in the company suggestion box. 1000' IMC and 500' VMC is a good starting point. Your SMS auditor might even think it's a good idea.

[chief]

This isn't like forgetting to turn on the auto feather, prop sync, auto ignition, leaving the flaps at approach or leaving the flaps down after landing.
".

Doc, come on now. Try forgetting to ARM your autofeather on a C425 and have an engine failure at 100' AAE. Good luck! If you live you can tell us the story. In fact, the autofeather is a no-go item. That's how critical it is. It just sounds like an Ooops if you heard about someone forgetting to arm it. According to your statement, you wouldn't consider the person to be a "moron" (as people have been terming pilots) BUT does that pilot now become a moron if the engine quit and they went into the ground? I don't believe ANY pilot here would intentionally land a plane with gear up. If so, then I would agree that pilot may be a bit of a moron. A pilot CAN say "yes i messed up" but that mess up can have outside factors affecting them.

[trey kule]

Quite interesting, the different perspectives. And perhaps I did not state mine well.

In order to learn from a mistake we must first accept responsibility for the mistake.
that means not saying, well I did it BUT.......
It means saying, and believing. I screwed up. It wont happen again. chances are if you dont put a BUT in there, it wont. But over and over I have seen pilots make all sorts of mistakes and then rationalize them in an attempt to avoid admitting it was a dumb thing to do (or not do).
I know a couple of very experienced pilots who have needed full power to taxi after a landing. Ask them why and they will tell you plain and simple..."I screwed up". the fact that they were tired, tried to salvage a bad approach, or simply were talking about their latest exploits does not change anything.
On the other hand, I have seen pilots who did something stupid and then come out with a litany of reasons for why.. And then go on to repeat the same mistake.

I learned early in my career that those pilots who dont accept responsibility for their mistakes by rationalizing them often go on to make mistakes again and again.. After all, it is not their fault.

I am not preaching perfection. In over 40 years of flying I have made my share of mistakes.
It happens. But sometimes we just have to admit that what we did was incredibly stupid and have a talk with ourselves. To say we were tired because of a long duty day simply means we did not have the sense to stop. To say it was because I tried to salvage an unstabalized approach means we did not have the sense to go around, and if it was a case of two , count them two crew members simply not doing their job..well...

I am not condemning this crew at all. I am just a little tired of all the posters who claim it could happen to anyone, and it is irresponsible to deny that. It was a result of a whole bunch of factors. They forgot to put the gear down. End of story.

I dont normally like to get involved in this kind of thread because there is most likely a couple of our fellow pilots out there who are not to proud of themselves right now, but all this warm fuzzy stuff form posters which appears to me to be offering excuses for a plain stupid mistake is concerning.

I understand why Doc has taken the extreme view, because otherwise some of you just dont get it.

[xsbank]

I did not ever offer excuses, nor did I intend to be "warm and fuzzy" but I did try to look for the reasons why this "moronic" thing happened.

"Stupid" seems, well, stupid.

Is that the best we can do?