teacher wrote:How about any airline that actually pays a dividend!?!? I believe there's 1 in the states, that's it. There's a reason for that. Jazz was set up to make RM and his buddies a lot of money.

That is it in a nutshell.

Jazz doesn't pay a dividend, they pay a distribution as they are a trust company. Very different when the taxman cometh. Instead of complaining about it, why not partake?

This past week, Jazz unitholders voted to convert to a corporation. When that happens on January 1st, then they'll pay a dividend. If you missed it, "Chorus" will be the new name. Mr. Randall has said the $0.60/year payout will continue and I suspect it's a factor in Jaz.un's run up of late.

[quote="F-16"]
Who has been one of the main obstacles to the foundation of the College of Pilots?

Jazz.

[quote]

Care to elaborate on that ?

At the last ACPA meeting it was revealed that Jazz to the day has not contributed to the college of pilots. Guess they are not interested.

Jazz the corporation, not likely. ALPA, not sure, but I suspect yes.

The Board and Executive of the College are well represented with members from the following companies and industry areas: WestJet, Skyservice, Georgian, Transport Canada/Nav Canada, Sunwing, Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz, Bearskin Airlines, Calm Air, First Air, CanJet, Kelowna Flightcraft, Central Mountain Air, Air Transat, Wasaya, float plane pilot(s), General Aviation pilot(s), and Corporate pilot(s).

Has Air Canada contributed?

I think it was monetary they were talking about that Jazz (or ALPA) has not contributed.

You were once at Jazz Sage, why the hate on now?

LisaS wrote:You were once at Jazz Sage, why the hate on now?

LisaS, no hate for Jazz. Just answering the question. I know it may read so at times but I have no hate for Jazz. Have a lot of friends still there, good memories, and I would recommend it to anybody. Jazz has a good place in the AC system and voted in the last poll to keep that. Hate on for some of the Jazz MEC definitely though. As long as BS and his Six Zerio cronies are there. Before you jump on me, I do not lump the MEC and the union membership in the same boat. I try to make it a point for you guys not believe everything that comes out of the MEC, and that's any MEC. Jazz MEC has in the past tried to screw anything ACPA associated (narrow body flying, EMJ, etc.) and that included Jazz pilots going over to AC, and flat out lied about it. Yes Im included and that has left a bad taste in alot of the former Jazz guys at AC. I'm not alone. You can add College of Pilots to the list now. They say they are proponents of the College but haven't contributed anything to it. Jazz guys coming over in this hiring will have the benefit of not having LOU18 holding you back and it being used as a bargaining tool by ALPA MEC.

Peace.

I don't seem to understand what your point is Sage? .. You keep saying Jazz but not ALPA? Are you saying Jazz the company hasn't put money toward the C of P? Or ALPA specifically?

I get your point about LOU18 .. but atleast with that LOU some seniority for pay could atleast follow you ..

I do find it funny that you believe the Jazz MEC to be a bunch of liars but that everything you hear from ACPA is gospel. Personally .. I think they're both guilty at times ..

Localizer wrote:I don't seem to understand what your point is Sage? .. You keep saying Jazz but not ALPA? Are you saying Jazz the company hasn't put money toward the C of P? Or ALPA specifically?

I get your point about LOU18 .. but atleast with that LOU some seniority for pay could atleast follow you ..

I do find it funny that you believe the Jazz MEC to be a bunch of liars but that everything you hear from ACPA is gospel. Personally .. I think they're both guilty at times ..

It was Jazz ALPA that hasn't contributed monetarily to the College. Why does it matter? I mentioned "Jazz(or ALPA)" as insert your own term here. This is a profession thing..why would Jazz the company have anything to do with this? Use a little common sense here.

Pay with LOU18 is nice Loc but it is awful having a job presented to your face and told you cannot have it until such and such a time has passed. Pay upgrade for those who stayed 2 years and under at Jazz is not as good as you might think however. You don't carry over a full 2 years.

I never mentioned anything about ACPA as gospel. I think I mentioned any MEC. Don't get the impression I was too pleased with the recent goings on at ACPA because I, like many are pretty pissed off.

Sage wrote:It was Jazz ALPA that hasn't contributed monetarily to the College. Why does it matter? I mentioned "Jazz(or ALPA)" as insert your own term here. This is a profession thing..why would Jazz the company have anything to do with this? Use a little common sense here.

Holy man! .. I ask you to clarify which group you were referring to and this is the responds? "Why does it matter", "insert your own term", "Use a little common sense" .. Maybe a simple "ALPA" would have sufficed, instead of sounding crass.

For the purpose of this post Jazz = Jazz ALPA

Sage,

I was suggested earlier that Jazz was an obstacle to the Foundation of the college. Now you are telling us that Jazz has not contributed. Not helping out and being against something are 2 different things.

I was under the impression that Jazz supported the colege, I know a few of our union reps who are working with the college.

Has ALPA Canada contributed to the college? Jazz is part of ALPA Canada so if they have contributed, Jazz's contribution would have been included no?

If not, is there a reson why Jazz has not contributed? What is the purpose of the college? Could it be that maybe Jazz thinks that the college will not work thus they have decided to put their resource elsewhere?

Personally I am surprised to hear your comments about Jazz not contributing, I am don't know the answers to any of those questions. I want to know what the real story is.

Now from my point of view....

ACPA has allowed AC to use another carriers for Tier 2. A Carrier that will fly a 75 seat airplane for cheaper than Jazz and Porter. ACPA is thinking about throwing an ACPA sen# as a carrot in the mix as well.

Given the crap that ACPA has just pulled off, I would not be surprised if Jazz or any other pilot group decides not to support the college as long as ACPA is involved. Can you blame them?

Not trying to stir the pot, just trying to get answers.

Cheers

It's probably fair to say wages cannot get too much lower...however with CMA & Georgian's history of training bonds etc. I think its safe to say they will continue that practice...no more "free" training on type...if you want the job on the Dash8 (or RJ down the road)you had better be prepared to committ the $ and/or the time.

That's where companies such as these have a huge cost saving advantage over JAZZ, WestJet, AC and the like.

Dark Helmet wrote: Sage,

I was suggested earlier that Jazz was an obstacle to the Foundation of the college. Now you are telling us that Jazz has not contributed. Not helping out and being against something are 2 different things.

I was under the impression that Jazz supported the colege, I know a few of our union reps who are working with the college.

Has ALPA Canada contributed to the college? Jazz is part of ALPA Canada so if they have contributed, Jazz's contribution would have been included no?

If not, is there a reson why Jazz has not contributed? What is the purpose of the college? Could it be that maybe Jazz thinks that the college will not work thus they have decided to put their resource elsewhere?

Personally I am surprised to hear your comments about Jazz not contributing, I am don't know the answers to any of those questions. I want to know what the real story is.

Now from my point of view....

ACPA has allowed AC to use another carriers for Tier 2. A Carrier that will fly a 75 seat airplane for cheaper than Jazz and Porter. ACPA is thinking about throwing an ACPA sen# as a carrot in the mix as well.

Given the crap that ACPA has just pulled off, I would not be surprised if Jazz or any other pilot group decides not to support the college as long as ACPA is involved. Can you blame them?

Not trying to stir the pot, just trying to get answers.

Cheers

Dark helmet,
Yes, you are correct, not helping out and being against are different things. I don't know the specifics but at the last meeting it was mentioned that no monetary contribution has been made to this day by JAZZ ALPA. It was not one of the topics to be discussed so no other specifics were given out. I will find out and let you guys know and in the mean time a call to your reps will probably answer your questions better. I'm very curious as well. I know I, along with many on the line, were shocked to hear that. I thought this was one thing in which pilots were all united on. As for resource allocation, do you not think that the college is something worthwhile and resources should be thrown at it to make it work?

About the ACPA seniority number, have you thought about this - do you not think that this is a good way to prevent a race to the bottom? Have an AC union set, control, and maintain a standard for pay and working conditions? Wouldn't that prevent an AC undercut for this new company? The view is that this is AC flying and a violation of scope, and who should be flying AC flights but ACPA pilots.

Sage,

Absolutely, I believe that Jazz ALPA should contribute. However, such contributions should be made only if it benefits everyone, not just one group at the expense of the other. As I said in my last post, the recent actions by ACPA raises some doubts. I can't speak for Jazz ALPA, just myself. I will research into this further.

do you not think that this is a good way to prevent a race to the bottom?

No it would not. Global solutions woukd have solved that (or a least given us a lot of leverage). However, your members said that it would never work because we are seperate companies now. How will this be any different?

Have an AC union set, control, and maintain a standard for pay and working conditions??

With all do respect, your current pay system is far from perfect. Your pay system allows the senior pilots at your company to enjoys the best WAWCON, while your junior pilots have it much worse. Judging by what I am hearing, there is little confidence in your negots committee from your members that this will change.


In the new Jazz CA, the negots committee and the MEC agreed to alocate the majority of the monetary gains towards FO compensation. The junior pilots ended up better than our senior pilots. BTW I am a junior pilot.

When we got the 757's (which you have a grievence against, even though this is not AC flying) Again every pilot got a pay uplift regardless wether you fly the machine or not.

As far as AC pilots doing AC flying. Well, we had the power within us to accomplish that, we simply choose not to, probably because of our egos....

Now

Wouldn't that prevent an AC undercut for this new company

No, AC or Skyregional will ultimately decide what the cost will have to be to remain competetive. ACPA may not have a say unless they are willing to give something up in return. Again, one of the reasons why global solution failed was that AC management would never support it. Again, how will this be any different.

Of course when it all falls apart, you will just point the finger and blame Jazz right

Can we cut the Air Canada, ACPA and Jazz crap?? This thread is about Sky Regional.
Some of you need to clue in and take yer horses**t to another thread.

Borrrrrrrrrrring.

Moderator? Any chance we can stay on topic?

Gino Under

Gino Under wrote:Can we cut the Air Canada, ACPA and Jazz crap?? This thread is about Sky Regional.
Some of you need to clue in and take yer horses**t to another thread.

Borrrrrrrrrrring.

Moderator? Any chance we can stay on topic?

Gino Under

Gino, you STILL don't get it. I tried a couple of times to illustrate to you why the relationship between ACPA/ALPA, AC and Jazz is VERY significant in the creation of SkyRegional. Unlike many other threads, this one actually has some dialogue worth reading and educating the masses on the political game. The current scenario being played out will have an enormous impact on the Canadian Aviation industry in the near future. If you are a pilot, and if you expect to have a career in the industry for more than the next 3 years, I suggest you absorb some of the info here.

Gino Under, I suggest you go to the very first page and read the very first post. The discussion in this thread regarding ACPA and JALPA has everything to do with the topic.

I've taken your kind advice and re-read the very first post and, nope. Nothing there about either Union at ACA or ACJ. If any interested pilot candidate wishes to accept the work and wage on offer at Sky Regional, isn't that a personal decision? What impact that will have down the road is pure speculation. Reading ad infinitum the jibberish about these CBAs is best placed in either Air Canada or Jazz Forums. But, that's only my opinion. FWIW
I don't set the the pace or the tone. I was kind of expecting to read something about Sky Regional and from those going through the screening process and their responses to that first post. After all, the other post was locked. (I believe)

It's just not going that way because too many insist on hijacking the thread.

I guess I'll move on...

Gino Under

Befor you move on, I've taken the liberty of highlighting some points I find illustrate my point

Good day everyone,

I usually read these forums but never actually posted anything. Actually, I just signed up today. I think this should be considered before anybody's resume makes it to Sky Regional Airlines.

I am very concerned with the possible arrival of Sky Regional Airlines. We are very fortunate in this country. Our national airline is currently using only 1 major regional partner. The arrival of Sky Regional would change that and could have potential desastrous implication for our future as pilots in Canada. For those who don't know; Air Canada will start serving Toronto Island again shortly. Instead of offering this work to their current regional partner, they intend on giving the work in and out of the Island to this new Airline. The Idea is clear, Sky Regional would do this work for less than Air Canada' other regional partner.
If this ever happens, we have to consider the possibility that in a few years from now, Air Canada will gladly offer its regional work to the lowest bidder.

This will most likely mean a situation similar to what they have south of the border. Ridiculous wages and poor working conditions.

Keep this in mind. If Sky Regional never happens, the work will still need to be done. These jobs that seem so appealing will still be available, most likely at Air Canada's current regional partner.

I won't hide, I work at Jazz as an FO. I have been here 3 years. Let me just say this. I was chatting an American Pilot that works for Pinnacle. He's a Captain on an RJ. We are bringing home the same money. Please help me insure we are not headed that way... Please look at the BIG picture.

Thanks for your time.

Heard through the grapevine that starting pay for a capt is 52k. Can anyone who has had an interview confirm that?

bcflyer wrote:Heard through the grapevine that starting pay for a capt is 52k. Can anyone who has had an interview confirm that?

If I was an ACPA member i'd be ashamed of my association. I think the junior pilots at AC and Jazz really need to take the helm. Its obvious the more senior pilots at both companies are blinded by the past .. its time for new blood to use common sense and stop the stupidity.

bcflyer wrote:Heard through the grapevine that starting pay for a capt is 52k. Can anyone who has had an interview confirm that?

I'm hearing $31,200 for F/O's plus $14 per hour, and $54,000 for captains plus $22 or $24 an hour. They are aiming for 85 hours per month.

ACPA should definitely be ashamed of allowing Air Canada to use a second Tier 2 operator and allowing them to lower the standards further. This does not help ACPA members, and honestly Air Canada should want to put pressure on Porter by paying slightly more to draw pilots from their operation and increasing Porter's overall costs as well. ACPA definitely dropped the ball in my eyes.

Yup,

LOC and ng78 you guys are right. ACPA should make sure that the cost of 23% of AC's North American ASM's remain roughly 30% above what the competition pays for the same lift.

Great idea. See ya at the unemployment line.

Where is the business acumen in this group? We do need to operate within reality. We all know that right?

This is not about the Jazz pilots. This is about forcing Jazz the company to sharpen its pencil. It won't happen unless they are forced. This is about ACPA deciding not to intervene in AC's desire to force Jazz, the corporation, to sharpen its pencil. Why? 26c/ASM and increasing is why.

It will be the Jazz pilots that will be responsible for defending their contract once Jazz the corp decides to do the sharpening. Why do you guys just assume JALPA won't be able to defend their CA? That the cost savings won't come from other things such as the margin, fleet type, or distribution?

I am absolutely not ashamed that ACPA has chosen to allow competition to the Jazz CPA. It is necessary under the new corporate structure. It is a fact of life. It has been a forgone conclusion that this would happen the day ACE made the decision to turn Jazz into a CPA provider.

What I am ashamed of is that we saw this coming. All of us. If you didn't you had your head buried in the sand. I've been writing about it on this board for a few years now and we have done nothing to prepare.

One group. One list. One union.

This self imposed immobility we place on ourselves is being leveraged against us.

Respectfully Brickhead,

I would like to respond individually to many of the points in your post so I have cut and pasted and placed quotes around those that belong to you. The points that belong to me will not appear in quotes.

"ACPA should make sure that the cost of 23% of AC's North American ASM's remain roughly 30% above what the competition pays for the same lift."

Are you inferring that the viability of AC is in jeopardy without the immediate reduction in Tier 2 CPA costs?
Do you realize that AC just recently renegotiated and renewed the Tier 2 CPA which included an extension and a reduction to the margins when block hours are increased above a certain amount?
Are you inferring that ACPA finds the current WAWCON of the US Regional pilot to be acceptable and that Canadian Regional pilots are overpaid in comparison?
Do you feel that 5 Q400 operating for an indeterminate amount of time will provide a reduction in CPA costs that will be sufficient to ensure the continued viability of AC?

"Where is the business acumen in this group?"

My business sense tells me that it would be more economical for AC to offload all of their domestic flying to Tier 2. Would you agree that this would make the most sense from a purely economical perspective?

"This is about ACPA deciding not to intervene in AC's desire to force Jazz, the corporation, to sharpen its pencil."

AC recently took the opportunity to negotiate new rates for the Jazz CPA. Why do you feel that Jazz will offer to reduce their current CPA rate due to the entrance of a new Tier 2 provider?
Are you inferring that ACPA has consciously decided not to intervene in the creation of a second Tier 2 provider by agreeing to renegotiate their current Scope Language?

"Why do you guys just assume JALPA won't be able to defend their CA? That the cost savings won't come from other things such as the margin, fleet type, or distribution?"

Perhaps you wouldn't mind providing some examples of pilot groups that were not forced to accept concessions when their employer was forced to decrease their revenue?

"It is necessary under the new corporate structure. It is a fact of life. It has been a forgone conclusion that this would happen the day ACE made the decision to turn Jazz into a CPA provider."

Are you inferring that ACPA has absolutely no influence over their current Scope Language?
Why do you appear to presume that ALPA will be able to defend their CA when you infer that ACPA cannot?

"One group. One list. One union.

This self imposed immobility we place on ourselves is being leveraged against us."

I'm not sure how these last two sentences fit in with the general tone of the comments that precede it. How does facilitating the creation of a second Tier 2 provider, that is non-unionized, aid in the creation of one group, one list and one union?