Since I had already completed my flight training I couldn't change anything at the school while I was there, but afterwards I calculated my number of solo hours and paid my instructors a bonus for the time they spent on my training that they were not compensated for. Seriously...if someone can afford to take flying lessons in the first place, they should be able to afford to pay the instructor 20 bucks an hour at least for sitting around because they are required to. For me, they were worth every penny.
What have you done to improve flight training?
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Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
As a recent graduate of a PPL program, I was appalled to learn that my instructors were only paid when providing dual instruction. Even though they are required to be present when a student is conducting a solo flight, the instructors do not get paid for their time. Personally, (although I have little to compare to) I believe that my flight instructors were of high character and conducted themselves very professionally. These poor folks have to put up with a lot of crazy crap that would make most pee their pants, I've even heard mine come close to slipping out an expletive or two while I was flying.
Come close mind you...they never did...nor did they take control because they were in fear of a negative outcome.
Since I had already completed my flight training I couldn't change anything at the school while I was there, but afterwards I calculated my number of solo hours and paid my instructors a bonus for the time they spent on my training that they were not compensated for. Seriously...if someone can afford to take flying lessons in the first place, they should be able to afford to pay the instructor 20 bucks an hour at least for sitting around because they are required to. For me, they were worth every penny.
Since I had already completed my flight training I couldn't change anything at the school while I was there, but afterwards I calculated my number of solo hours and paid my instructors a bonus for the time they spent on my training that they were not compensated for. Seriously...if someone can afford to take flying lessons in the first place, they should be able to afford to pay the instructor 20 bucks an hour at least for sitting around because they are required to. For me, they were worth every penny.
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shitdisturber
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Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
You're in the minority but I salute you for recognizing what your instructors did for you, most don't. In my own case, I never begrudged the extra time I spent with students. I did it of my own free will and with few exceptions that I can think of; I did it because I liked my students and wanted them to succeed, if it cost me a little free (literally and figuratively) time, so be it. I have no regrets.ArcticKat wrote:As a recent graduate of a PPL program, I was appalled to learn that my instructors were only paid when providing dual instruction. Even though they are required to be present when a student is conducting a solo flight, the instructors do not get paid for their time. Personally, (although I have little to compare to) I believe that my flight instructors were of high character and conducted themselves very professionally. These poor folks have to put up with a lot of crazy crap that would make most pee their pants, I've even heard mine come close to slipping out an expletive or two while I was flying.Come close mind you...they never did...nor did they take control because they were in fear of a negative outcome.
Since I had already completed my flight training I couldn't change anything at the school while I was there, but afterwards I calculated my number of solo hours and paid my instructors a bonus for the time they spent on my training that they were not compensated for. Seriously...if someone can afford to take flying lessons in the first place, they should be able to afford to pay the instructor 20 bucks an hour at least for sitting around because they are required to. For me, they were worth every penny.
Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
I am not unhappy with my lot in flight training, I'm just very tired.Unless I miss my mark, you're extremely unhappy with your lot in flight training chiefly because you feel there's not a living to be made in it. Do you feel the situation would improve if you could make a decent living at it? Remember, I didn't say get rich. Do you feel that flight training at your school would improve if the personell made a good living at it? What about flight training in your area? Nationally?
A decent living can be defined in many ways.
Personnel here make a better living than most on this airfield, we pay better and treat them better. But we can only do so much with the declining customer base.
All schools are hurting right now as there are a lot fewer students coming through the doors.
Perhaps the endemic unhappiness you can read in these pages is a factor. Nobody wants to go to a party of misery.
Flight training here suffers as much from the weather forecasts as anything else.
Students cancel on the forecast and students from elsewhere will not come here because the weather is always bad.
The problem is it isn't!
We've had a lot of good flying days recently when nobody showed up because of the weather forecast!
Nationally?
I can't speak for the rest of this country.
I believe Moncton is doing a very good job, I understand they got some Chinese students from here through their licences and back to China before their compatriots who are still here (not at my school)... The weather in the Maritimes is worse than here but they still succeed and good for them.
Our foreign students always compare us with how their friends are doing in London and in Winterpeg.
Winnipeg has better weather, there's Sun in the forecast every day, I wouldn't like the cold though!
Everywhere has its change of personnel, as instructors move on to the airlines.
As mentioned, my generation was lucky for the experienced personnel who taught us, they were retired or just doing it weekends for the pleasure of doing a good job.
Today for most the instructor rating is a passing phase on to the next thing. People hurry a lot more these days, they must catch up with something.
What I see sometimes is pilots who want to change, why not do it this way? Then one day they come unstuck and learn why things were done a certain way for the past 80 years...
I am tired, I am growing old, I am here 12 hours a day even in the winter... I do not expect anyone else to shoulder the load, they are not paid enough.
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Old Dog Flying
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Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
MichaelP: Quit whining about your situation, I too spent 12-14 days until I was 68 and enjoyed it. Many days I would instruct for 3-4 hours then go spend the next 8 hours in the tower sorting out the dog-fight called a circuit. We can only change those things that effect us, we can't change others so why worry. Get on with the job and do the best you can!MichaelP wrote:[
I am tired, I am growing old, I am here 12 hours a day even in the winter... I do not expect anyone else to shoulder the load, they are not paid enough.
This should be good for a flame job!
Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
I'm not whining I just doing, and doing what it takes.
I believe in what we are doing, but I don't believe in asking others for more than they are paid for.
It's a good thing when people go the extra mile to help out and we have people who do so in this company.
Barney is of an old generation who did work longer hours... Mind you we get paid the same dollar amount today as was paid 20 years ago, except the dollar does not have the same value!
To make it work in this country someone has to put in the effort.
The more experience you have the more work you can do... Someone has to do it!
A school cannot survive on the instructor turnover that the culture has created. It has to have someone with experience to ensure its continuance, and that someone will inevitably have to put in extra time.
I am prepared to pass on my job as CFI this summer to someone else.
The CFI needs to have experience in all aspects of this business including knowledge of maintenance.
I believe in what we are doing, but I don't believe in asking others for more than they are paid for.
It's a good thing when people go the extra mile to help out and we have people who do so in this company.
Barney is of an old generation who did work longer hours... Mind you we get paid the same dollar amount today as was paid 20 years ago, except the dollar does not have the same value!
To make it work in this country someone has to put in the effort.
The more experience you have the more work you can do... Someone has to do it!
A school cannot survive on the instructor turnover that the culture has created. It has to have someone with experience to ensure its continuance, and that someone will inevitably have to put in extra time.
I am prepared to pass on my job as CFI this summer to someone else.
The CFI needs to have experience in all aspects of this business including knowledge of maintenance.
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Old Dog Flying
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Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
I ran a very busy FTU in the late 70s...10,000 hrs per year..and the instructors were paid 60% of the dual rate! And this included a base per and an hourly rate! Before I quit instructing, one school offered me $19.00 per flying hour just a few years ago...my freelance rate was $40.00 per hour. Guess what my comments were!MichaelP wrote: Mind you we get paid the same dollar amount today as was paid 20 years ago, except the dollar does not have the same value!
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Pay the instructors a good living wage and the quality of flight training will improve as the turn-over rate decreases in the instructor ranks.
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GoinNowhereFast
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Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
I agree with that 100%. The low turn-over rate would deter those who are just building hours and don't care about teaching. It may actually become a viable career.Old Dog Flying wrote:Pay the instructors a good living wage and the quality of flight training will improve as the turn-over rate decreases in the instructor ranks.
Sarcasm is the body's natural defense against stupidity
Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
Same same...
The big problem is flying school operators who want to maintain the status quo, and who's to blame them when you can learn so much cheaper south of the border?
I was told a few years ago that Canadian flight training can only survive if flying instructors are paid below the legal minimum wage. That by a manager member of ATAC.
The cost of operation of aircraft in Canada has gone up, so to compete the pay for instructors must go down in real terms.
In a few years you'll probably be paying the school to fly as an instructor in the same way some airlines have and will charge their copilots who are building valuable flying hours.
I don't think there's an easy answer to this...
I note that Seattle area schools charge more than Vancouver based schools. But perhaps they have more credibility and so can charge more, and their clients might be well heeled
The big problem is flying school operators who want to maintain the status quo, and who's to blame them when you can learn so much cheaper south of the border?
I was told a few years ago that Canadian flight training can only survive if flying instructors are paid below the legal minimum wage. That by a manager member of ATAC.
The cost of operation of aircraft in Canada has gone up, so to compete the pay for instructors must go down in real terms.
In a few years you'll probably be paying the school to fly as an instructor in the same way some airlines have and will charge their copilots who are building valuable flying hours.
I don't think there's an easy answer to this...
I note that Seattle area schools charge more than Vancouver based schools. But perhaps they have more credibility and so can charge more, and their clients might be well heeled
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Old Dog Flying
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Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
[quote="MichaelP"]Same same...
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The cost of operation of aircraft in Canada has gone up, so to compete the pay for instructors must go down in real terms.
In a few years you'll probably be paying the school to fly as an instructor in the same way some airlines have and will charge their copilots who are building valuable flying hours."
This is about as silly a statement as I have ever heard!...therefore using your rational, there would no longer be a dual rate because your starving instructors are paying the school for the privilege of building hours....Pardon me while I put on my hip waders 'cause the BS is getting real deep.
As for the instructors rate going down with the increased cost in aircraft operation...again BS. The biggest problem with flying schools is the overhead...lease/rental of office space, aircraft parking and in ZBBs case the higher than average cost of fuel, although this is still a relatively small part of the operating costs..it all adds up.
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The cost of operation of aircraft in Canada has gone up, so to compete the pay for instructors must go down in real terms.
In a few years you'll probably be paying the school to fly as an instructor in the same way some airlines have and will charge their copilots who are building valuable flying hours."
This is about as silly a statement as I have ever heard!...therefore using your rational, there would no longer be a dual rate because your starving instructors are paying the school for the privilege of building hours....Pardon me while I put on my hip waders 'cause the BS is getting real deep.
As for the instructors rate going down with the increased cost in aircraft operation...again BS. The biggest problem with flying schools is the overhead...lease/rental of office space, aircraft parking and in ZBBs case the higher than average cost of fuel, although this is still a relatively small part of the operating costs..it all adds up.
Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
That is theoretically possible, from a purely economic standpoint. If the supply of flight instructors is large enough, and the demand for them is low enough, the price could go down to zero, and even negative per hour, because low-time flight instructors are compensated in two ways: money, and logged time.you'll probably be paying the school to fly as an instructor
When flight instructors decide that the value of an hour in the logbook is worth enough, their wages will go negative.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
This unfortunately is already happening. I know of one Class 4 who after searching for 6 months was offered a job. No base and 18 $ hr when he flew. The problem was there were already too many instructors for the level of business so after accounting for gas money to get to the airport, uniform expenses, CFS, charts, medical, and the cost of his class 4 renewal ride. The approximately 100 hrs (no recommends) he flew over the 6 months was effectively working for free. The sad part is he considered it worthwhile because he was able to move to a school with a proper base and salary and enough students to stay busy. He felt that the little bit of experience he already had was what helped him get hired over 9 (yes 9) other Class 4's who were interviewed for the job.Hedley wrote:you'll probably be paying the school to fly as an instructor
When flight instructors decide that the value of an hour in the logbook is worth enough, their wages will go negative.
Working for free as a flying instructor is already here.....
Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
Didn't the Jetsgo pilots do something similar? Paid the company $30k each to get the job?
Sort of a negative signing bonus.
Sort of a negative signing bonus.
Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
It was meant in jest but then again: "Many a true word spoken in jest".This is about as silly a statement as I have ever heard!...
Re: What have you done to improve flight training?
Yes they did. I believe Jetsgo had the $30k as a training cost, which almost makes sense as they did train for transition to type. But if you apply the idea of paying your own training to any other industry, it seems nuts.Hedley wrote:Didn't the Jetsgo pilots do something similar? Paid the company $30k each to get the job?
Sort of a negative signing bonus.
I had a friend who was ready go go down and get his training with his $30k cheque in hand... Fortunately (or not), it went belly up before he could hand over the cheque.

