ACPA Implodes !

[Fanblade]

In short, this issue is Air Canada's problem. If it is Air Canada's problem, it is therefore your problem. You should therefore treat it as such. For what it is worth...

,

Mechanic,

You seem to have forgotten about the promise each union made in 2009 to fix the pension issue and the mechanism all unions agree to in that respect. Who required that signed promise for the club loan? The minister of finance. His involvement is finished. AC has that promise in its back pocket.

You also seem to not understand the new rules for distressed pensions as of April 1 that the gov't passed with much of it hidden in with other legislation. Even though they claim up front to be neutral. They are not. Reading on the internet won't give you an understanding. It looks politically benign until a lawyer explains exactly what the OSFI now has the power to do to your pension benefit if it becomes distressed. Trust me the law change is not about protecting pension benefits. It is about protecting companies from an obligation they can no longer afford.

However you are right about the quote above.

Other than a foreign exchange gain last year AC has not made money since 2006. This company can not make money as it is presently structured except at the peak of the cycle. The last CCAA was not about sustainability. CCAA will eventually happen again if no action is taken. What needs to happen?

Slashing is what needs to happen. That is reality. It will happen one way or another. Either we do it on our own. Or we eventually do it through another CCAA.

I am sure retirees prefer we avoid CCAA. I am sure as a new hire, what I want is sustainability.

This pension is a boat anchor. Without a company there is no pension.

Everyone and everything will voluntarily be streamlined or get left behind. failing that, we all fail together.

How's that for treating this issue as my problem?

[vic777]

Slashing is what needs to happen. That is reality. It will happen one way or another.

How about "we" start by slashing exorbitant landing fees, and reduce the size of Government. The Pilots generate all the wealth in Aviation and it is sucked out to fund bad Management and big Government. How much can be saved thru intelligent Aircraft Spraying procedures? ..... Millions.

[Fanblade]

Vic,

Agreed. But none of those suggestions would change AC CASM, the highest in North America, in relation to its competition.

Meaning it won't help.

[What's Missing]

What are we missing here..something seem terrible wrong.

ACPA's own actuaries stated in a secret report to the MEC that extending the age past 60 would be beneficial to the pension plan...savings in the order of hundreds of millions if only a small percentage of the pilots stayed for a few years.

Then the argument moved forward to the position that it would delay career progression for the majority of the pilots...from six months to possibly a year.

The arrival of the proposed LCC would impact the pay of a very large group of pilots [the addition of potentially 50 aircraft and over 500 pilots] and would serve as a new low water mark in our pay structure.

What am i missing...Are we throwing the proverbial baby, out with the bath water. Considering that we all know , whether we like it or not, that the age for pilots at AC will be increasing... Which does the greater harm..............?????

Bill

[accumulous]

ACPA's own actuaries stated in a secret report to the MEC that extending the age past 60 would be beneficial to the pension plan...savings in the order of hundreds of millions if only a small percentage of the pilots stayed for a few years.

The internal report you mention has been floating around for quite a while – it’s out there on a lot of hard drives. It clearly shows the huge benefit to the Defined Benefit Pension Plan available by joining every other airline in North America in dropping age 60.

However, the Official Flight Plan of the Hindenburg is not scheduled to cross that Waypoint enroute to the Scene of its Crash.

The Defined Benefit Pension was dropped off the Gas Bag along with the ballast when it set sail for Neverland.

The Official Flight Plan, as of the TA, is to jettison Anything of Value, including the Defined Benefit Pension, just to get Bozo the Blimp to an altitude from which the Bitter End can be clearly observed.

Like any Rudderless Dirigible, the vagaries of wind direction determine the trajectory, in lieu of brains.

Mandatory retirement is dead at AC. Just ask the CAW.

Pilots are going to be returning, having their pensions unwound and restarted, and other pilots will be electing not to leave, just after we lob the Pension Plan into the dumpster in order to make it more economical for the Company to keep the Pension Plans intact for all the other Unions, including the CAW, and the IAM, who will all be thanking us very much and then handing us a Zippo lighter to go check the hydrogen level in Section B.

This is the kind of tail spin we’re good at.

Just get right behind the power curve, pull the stick hard aft, keep it there, and simply go Thundering in Ass First every time.

All this, and more, in the interest of preventing 2900 pilots, who cannot maximize the Pension Plan Years of Service criteria due to the now 30 year old Tribunal ruling that prevents age discrimination in hiring at AC, from realizing the full benefits of the Pension that we're throwing out now so that we lose the chance to fix it after forced retirement is turfed.

New AC Hiring Criteria Cog Test.

Q. Are you legally insane?
A. Yes.

You’re hired.

[c170b53]

Your demeanor is understandable but I don't think slagging other workers at the company is being useful in anyway. I don't think you will see big numbers, a few may elect to stay on but their contribution to the plan will probably be helpful only because they are unlikely to get out what they put in. A fellow worker, super guy, never took a sick day, retired last year at 65 and now sadly is in palliative care, he won't see the fall.
The company will gladly take what ever you are not willing to fight for, that's a given. This is just round one, don't worry you'll have plenty of time to lose it in the later rounds but when you do, direct it at the guys that want the concessions just this (one more) time.

[LeadingEdge]

For Leading Edge

your post:

What most of you retired guys fail to understand is that if this agreement passes, you will not want to come back. You will be placed on the 767 and then transferred to low cost, whether you like it or not. The position that you had is being eliminated...

ACPA is not imploding, and ALPA is not going to happen. ACPA is returning to its roots, you remember those days don't you?? You should be supporting the grass roots

=============================================================================================

Please, think about your post. Then, spend a few minutes looking at the HRA under the Federal Rules of discrimination.

One of the most important rules, established, and adheared to, set by the Federal Government, sets out the procedures for reinstatement back to an individuals place of original employment. (the place/position/status/pay levels etc., when they were discriminated against.)

Anyone, (a pilot in this case) who is wrongfully terminated due to a proven legal violation as per the HRA, will, be reinstated back to their original position. That is not open to negotiation. IT is the law, and that is what acpa has been keeping from you all along, as well as a box car full of other details.

The HRA carries, a great deal of established, and enforced, legal procedures, like it or not. This a very different from the V/K case, who were reinstated under different rules. This is very different, and has many different laws.

The Pension Issue, from this TA has just cemented more post pending/current, 60 types, into applying, it was a huge eye opener to see what they tried to do in this TA. The no indexing, possible reductions to one's pension in a few years, etc. etc. just to mention a few items, that will cause even more to consider staying past 60.

I do understand what you are saying, but event will move past your legal rights. The position that you left will no longer be in the mix. The new position is "widebody captain" THATS IT. Now you will not take a paycut, but they can place you wherever they want - B767 here you come. After that witness LCC formation and you will be FORCED REDUCED. Its all legal whether you like it or not.

Further more, if you return, your pension will undergo the changes that Fanblade mentions up above. The core members of ACPA are fighting this TA, YOU had better hope that they are successful.

There is not a court in the land that will reinstate you to an expired collective agreement...

[LeadingEdge]

Maybe the flypast 60 group should try to get an injuction against this TA...

[Rockie]

It's easy to imagine CR and the rest of the senior management team sitting around guffawing at the sight of pilot factions blaming each other for the raping they are effortlessly inflicting on us. Age 60 is another divisive issue that fell into their lap, and they continue to play us like a violin. Just wait until the bill comes in that our union in their infinite stupidity agreed to pay half of.

As tactical thinkers we suck.

As strategic thinkers WE SUCK.

[morefun]

Rockie ...lets face it we just suck period....

[Inceptive]

Slashing is what needs to happen. That is reality. It will happen one way or another. Either we do it on our own. Or we eventually do it through another CCAA.

I am sure retirees prefer we avoid CCAA. I am sure as a new hire, what I want is sustainability.

This pension is a boat anchor. Without a company there is no pension.

Everyone and everything will voluntarily be streamlined or get left behind. failing that, we all fail together.

How's that for treating this issue as my problem?

You're kidding right?

No WestJet comparisons, or even Air Transat on their last CA.
Why, because they are asking you to accept CAR's
Company Issue as your problem? You are the problem!
If you can't figure out that no matter how much you give, that this company will still be defunct, once again,

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!

Jazz runs Thomas Cook, an LCC under their working conditions...
WestJet T4's are better than our boys (737 vs. A320)...
But once again, take it upon yourself as a pilot, to fix the shortcomes of this company..

Robert Milton and Calin's bonuses could have paid off 25% of the pilot pension deficit...
(Just a comparison, and never expected)
But go ahead and take your next pay cut! Again, and again, and again, and again, and again!

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!

LOU's to come.. Come on!

Put it in writting and then come to us.. We all know that changes are coming, but not like this!

If you want to work under these conditions, please address your next resume to NWT where a lot
of us have already been! It's the best if you're 18 and single.. However not if you're married with
kids!

Grow a backbone and stand with your profession and not your company! If they are this pathetic, then
let UAE come in and at least pay some of us..

You don't even know what's in this TA, for most of the LCC info is in LOU's to come.

So head blindly down this path, while the rest of us fight for at least an LOU or two for you!

[vic777]

There is not a court in the land that will reinstate you to an expired collective agreement...

LeadingEdge, what are you talking about? Do you read your comments? Where has anyone proposed, being "reinstated to an expired collective agreement". Here's a simple question for you. Let's say FlyPast60 becomes a reality and that there is a B777 Captain who turns Sixty and wants to stay employed, what do you think is the most economical and profitable thing that the Company can do with that individual? What is the most profitable action that the Company can take, with this individual?

[MackTheKnife]

The new position is "widebody captain" THATS IT. Now you will not take a paycut, but they can place you wherever they want - B767 here you come. After that witness LCC formation and you will be FORCED REDUCED. Its all legal whether you like it or not.

V & K had their seniority re-instated in full so it only follows that any other returning retiree will get theirs reinstated as well.

How do you propose, legally forcing seniority number 1 down to an LCC 767 operation at reduced wages

Nice try.

The so called "wide body Captain" position just becomes another step on the ladder but there will always be a Junior Capt and a Senior Capt.

Unless you plan on ditching the seniority system entirely and go to a Brown Nose system, seniority will still rule the day.

[Fanblade]

Slashing is what needs to happen. That is reality. It will happen one way or another. Either we do it on our own. Or we eventually do it through another CCAA.

I am sure retirees prefer we avoid CCAA. I am sure as a new hire, what I want is sustainability.

This pension is a boat anchor. Without a company there is no pension.

Everyone and everything will voluntarily be streamlined or get left behind. failing that, we all fail together.

How's that for treating this issue as my problem?

You're kidding right?

No WestJet comparisons, or even Air Transat on their last CA.
Why, because they are asking you to accept CAR's
Company Issue as your problem? You are the problem!
If you can't figure out that no matter how much you give, that this company will still be defunct, once again,

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!

Jazz runs Thomas Cook, an LCC under their working conditions...
WestJet T4's are better than our boys (737 vs. A320)...
But once again, take it upon yourself as a pilot, to fix the shortcomes of this company..

Robert Milton and Calin's bonuses could have paid off 25% of the pilot pension deficit...
(Just a comparison, and never expected)
But go ahead and take your next pay cut! Again, and again, and again, and again, and again!

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!

LOU's to come.. Come on!

Put it in writting and then come to us.. We all know that changes are coming, but not like this!

If you want to work under these conditions, please address your next resume to NWT where a lot
of us have already been! It's the best if you're 18 and single.. However not if you're married with
kids!

Grow a backbone and stand with your profession and not your company! If they are this pathetic, then
let UAE come in and at least pay some of us..

You don't even know what's in this TA, for most of the LCC info is in LOU's to come.

So head blindly down this path, while the rest of us fight for at least an LOU or two for you!

Inceptive,

Thanks for the pep talk.

I agree the CAR's work rules are a joke. I agree even more with how crazy executive compensation has become.

But as a group we need a reality check. AC is not going to survive in its current form. And I say that with absolute total confidence.

AC has not made a profit in the last 5 years except last year which was from foreign exchange gains. This company can only make money at the peak of a cycle and then turn a margin in that is less than 1% of revenue. First there was low cost domestically driving yields down. Now low cost is showing up on the international routes driving yields down. Transat to Europe and soon to China. Jetstar SYD-YVR soon coming. How many near misses with insolvency do you want to make?

What is my message? The legacy model is done. Slash it. But slash what? Any cost that is not industry standard bring it in line. That means productivity, pension work rules. How is the only way to do that? Shift work to another company without the legacy cost for any employee group unwilling to do so.

We refuse? We are helping our self into another CCAA. In CCAA our pension will be completely gone. Our work rules will get kicked and our pay will get further eroded. Or we simply disappear.

So am I the problem? I am new to AC and come from a commerce back ground. My view is that AC employees are out of touch with the reality they are employed in.

Making those living in la la land the problem.

[rudder]

Inceptive,

Thanks for the pep talk.

I agree the CAR's work rules are a joke. I agree even more with how crazy executive compensation has become.

But as a group we need a reality check. AC is not going to survive in its current form. And I say that with absolute total confidence.

AC has not made a profit in the last 5 years except last year which was from foreign exchange gains. This company can only make money at the peak of a cycle and then turn a margin in that is less than 1% of revenue. First there was low cost domestically driving yields down. Now low cost is showing up on the international routes driving yields down. Transat to Europe and soon to China. Jetstar SYD-YVR soon coming. How many near misses with insolvency do you want to make?

What is my message? The legacy model is done. Slash it. But slash what? Any cost that is not industry standard bring it in line. That means productivity, pension work rules. How is the only way to do that? Shift work to another company without the legacy cost for any employee group unwilling to do so.

We refuse? We are helping our self into another CCAA. In CCAA our pension will be completely gone. Our work rules will get kicked and our pay will get further eroded. Or we simply disappear.

So am I the problem? I am new to AC and come from a commerce back ground. My view is that AC employees are out of touch with the reality they are employed in.

Making those living in la la land the problem.

No other AC union group is going to agree to the "LCC - bomb labour back to the stone ages" concept being promoted by the head shed.

Is change necessary? Yes. But not this plan. This is a prescription for neverending internal divisions and for neverending demands from management to erode what was previously known as mainline AC.

ZIP failed. This is ZIP with widebodies.

[Fanblade]

No other AC union group is going to agree to the "LCC - bomb labour back to the stone ages" concept being promoted by the head shed.

I don't think they are invited. That is the point. It is only being "played" the way it is for optics. the company will just say we asked them and they didn't want to. No other group has scope.

Is change necessary? Yes. But not this plan. This is a prescription for neverending internal divisions and for neverending demands from management to erode what was previously known as mainline AC.

Got a better idea? How would you get industry standard costs in place? As you know we are not alone in this. Jazz is also very much on the radar for industry standard costs.

ZIP failed. This is ZIP with widebodies.

Zip never reached any kind of economy of scale. There are many examples of failure with the airline within an airline concept. There are also many successes. The key is economy of scale and as much detachment from legacy costs as possible. It is not enough to just stick extra seats in a hull. Lower RASM across more seats with the same costs structure does not work. The only detachment from legacy cost for ZIP were the FA's. Everything else was the same.

The success stories are complete or near complete detachment. And don't think AC couldn't pull a Jetstar and ditch the pilots who are the only ones with scope language if it so decided. Start an airline in England to run back to Canada. Start an airline in Asia to run back to Canada. Our labor laws do not extend beyond our boarders. Ask the auzzies.

For me this is simple. AC must change. AC will not survive without change. We can be apart of the changes required, or we can refuse to change. There are consequences to both decisions. That is life, and that is the reality we work in.

The CAR's work rules aside. That is ridiculous.

[rudder]

The success stories are complete or near complete detachment. And don't think AC couldn't pull a Jetstar and ditch the pilots who are the only ones with scope language if it so decided. Start an airline in England to run back to Canada. Start an airline in Asia to run back to Canada. Our labor laws do not extend beyond our boarders. Ask the auzzies.

Your conspiracy theory is a little overwrought. But that is exactly what CR wants labour to believe - that he will act unilaterally.

ACE is no longer in the picture. It is not a threat. The only corporate entity of consequence (or relevance) is AC. If AC were to try to pull an unsanctioned alter-ego airline stunt it would result in holy war and not one collective agreement would be signed this year. And let's not forget the jurisdiction of the CIRB if there were allegations of common employer or transfer of work. No, acting without explicit support from labour is suicide.

So, where does that leave everybody? Back at the drawing board. And if the best that anybody can come up with is this, then you are correct. It is over for AC.

By the way, just because an idea eminates from the corner office does not mean that it is a good one.

[Fanblade]

The success stories are complete or near complete detachment. And don't think AC couldn't pull a Jetstar and ditch the pilots who are the only ones with scope language if it so decided. Start an airline in England to run back to Canada. Start an airline in Asia to run back to Canada. Our labor laws do not extend beyond our boarders. Ask the auzzies.

Your conspiracy theory is a little overwrought. But that is exactly what CR wants labour to believe - that he will act unilaterally.

ACE is no longer in the picture. It is not a threat. The only corporate entity of consequence (or relevance) is AC. If AC were to try to pull an unsanctioned alter-ego airline stunt it would result in holy war and not one collective agreement would be signed this year. And let's not forget the jurisdiction of the CIRB if there were allegations of common employer or transfer of work. No, acting without explicit support from labour is suicide.

So, where does that leave everybody? Back at the drawing board. And if the best that anybody can come up with is this, then you are correct. It is over for AC.

By the way, just because an idea eminates from the corner office does not mean that it is a good one.

Rudder,

This is exactly the problem with AC employees.

You acknowledged there is a problem but provide and refuse any form of a solution. If you were in the head office how would you make AC sustainable? Sustainability will only come through cost competitiveness in the market you are in.

At the moment I see two options on the table. One deals with the problems AC faces. Cost competitiveness is specific markets. And one sticks its head in the sand. I guess I haven't been an AC employee long enough to believe option two is actually an option.

As for common employer? No work will transfer from AC. AC will stay the same size. What is purposed is re-branding to enter a different market. Like many many other industries in Canada.



Hilton Group for example.

http://www.hiltonworldwide.com/ourbrands/index.htm

[Rockie]

Fanblade

Cheap crews do not make a low cost airline and you know that. Getting rid of every employee group's DB pension does not make a low cost airline. Low costs make a low cost airline, and Air Canada has never been, and never will be a low cost airline. Thinking a 3 tonne rhino can be turned into a jaguar is ridiculous especially when you consider this is Air Canada we're talking about.

A low cost division of Air Canada is ridiculous because if they were able to create an effective one the whole airline would become LCC. Why wouldn't it?

At best Air Canada can become more competitive with costs, but never a LCC. When I see the senior executives clawing back their own salary and benefits I will take them seriously, but since they aren't doing that I can only assume they want to do it all on the backs of the most visible employees. I for one don't feel much like cooperating.

[rudder]

Rudder,

This is exactly the problem with AC employees.

You acknowledged there is a problem but provide and refuse any form of a solution. If you were in the head office how would you make AC sustainable? Sustainability will only come through cost competitiveness in the market you are in.

At the moment I see two options on the table. One deals with the problems AC faces. One sticks their head in the sand. I guess I haven't been an AC employee long enough to believe option two is actually an option.

As for common employer? No work will transfer from AC. AC will stay the same size. What is purposed is re-branding to enter a different market. Like many many other industries in Canada.



Hilton Group for example.

http://www.hiltonworldwide.com/ourbrands/index.htm

Unless AC is involved, the new carrier has no value to AC. If AC is involved, then there are industrial consequences.

The requisite change at AC is not rocket science, nor is it as draconian as the senior management would like to see. Perhaps part of the 'plan' should be that AC accepts that it cannot be all things to all people? Airlines drop markets all the time that they deem to be non-competitive.

Your theme seems to embrace all of the free market economy and corporate interest principles yet makes no room for the labour interest or principle side of the equation. The ultimate solution will have to factor in both components.

Become more productive. Reject B-scale. Demand a significant share of any proceeds (equity and profits) that flow from changes that you make. Reign in Executive rewards.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade

Cheap crews do not make a low cost airline and you know that. Getting rid of every employee group's DB pension does not make a low cost airline. Low costs make a low cost airline, and Air Canada has never been, and never will be a low cost airline. Thinking a 3 tonne rhino can be turned into a jaguar is ridiculous especially when you consider this is Air Canada we're talking about.

Rockie pilots represent a very small portion of CASM. Yes an LCC needs to be built from the ground up to work. And if done that way there are many example of success.

A low cost division of Air Canada is ridiculous because if they were able to create an effective one the whole airline would become LCC. Why wouldn't it?

No. There is still demand for premium traffic. No company can be all things to all people. That is why they re-brand when attempting to enter a different market segment.

Think of us as the HBC. Zellers is their low cost.

At best Air Canada can become more competitive with costs, but never a LCC.

Exactly why re branding is necessary, with a separate entity from the ground up, if AC is to compete in other than premium market segments.

I for one don't feel much like cooperating.

That is completely your prerogative. Just like all other employee groups. But every decision has consequences. Doing nothing is still a decision.

[Fanblade]

The requisite change at AC is not rocket science, nor is it as draconian as the senior management would like to see. Perhaps part of the 'plan' should be that AC accepts that it cannot be all things to all people? Airlines drop markets all the time that they deem to be non-competitive.

That's a choice too. A bad one though as fewer seats get spread across the cost base driving CASM up. For that reason Airlines can't shrink into profitability.

Your theme seems to embrace all of the free market economy and corporate interest principles yet makes no room for the labour interest or principle side of the equation. The ultimate solution will have to factor in both components.

You got me. I probably have more of a business back ground than aviation. Family business I grew up in. Degree in commerce. Became pilot instead. Right there my credibility should be next to zero. Your points about labor are valid. They didn't implode over ZIP. No shrinkage at mainline is planned.

Become more productive. Reject B-scale. Demand a significant share of any proceeds (equity and profits) that flow from changes that you make. Reign in Executive rewards.

You had me until this one.

Demand a significant share of any proceeds (equity and profits)

It will take significant change just to create a viable company. If the unions take a significant "share" of the changes the company still won't be sustainable. The equity idea I like.

As employees we have to remember that at the end of the day revenue minus cost must be a positive number. AC employees seem to have forgotten basic math. A very simple perusal of AC financial statements tells the story.

Something is going to give. We participate. Or it gets done too us.

[rudder]

Become more productive. Reject B-scale. Demand a significant share of any proceeds (equity and profits) that flow from changes that you make. Reign in Executive rewards.

You had me until this one.

Demand a significant share of any proceeds (equity and profits)

It will take significant change just to create a viable company. If the unions take a significant "share" of the changes the company still won't be sustainable. The equity idea I like.

As employees we have to remember that at the end of the day revenue minus cost must be a positive number. AC employees seem to have forgotten basic math. A very simple perusal of AC financial statements tells the story.

Something is going to give. We participate. Or it gets done too us.

Profits i.e. below the line.

Take it in cash or force the company to use it to buy equity for the pilots. No profit then no share.

AC will never be a dividend paying company. Sure, some profit must remain unassigned in order to build cash reserves. But if the pilot contribution to reducing the expense side of the ledger results in net income, then they definitely should take a piece rather than watch it being used to give executives 100% increases in total compensation.

Take a good close look at the WJ model. They have this part all figured out. The goal is to create balance between the naturally competing interests. At AC, there is no such balance.

And as for B-scale, it is a cancer. Pure and simple. If it such a great idea, then there should be B-scale executives. But there never are.

[777longhaul]

What a joke!

The Government SUCKS air canada, and every other airline dry, with fees, taxes etc. etc.

Then, they threaten the airlines, with legal moves, if there are any problems.

Then, they get the AC, management, to spin the problems of revenue, and profit, as being THE PILOTS problems, along with their pensions.

We, the pilots, are so busy screwing each other, that we start to fully believe, the wispering, in our collective ears, is that it is our problem, because we are causing it.

The pilots, could all fly for taxi wages, and the airlines, and the govenment, would still say it is US that is causing the problem, They dont know how to say anything else.

LCC is a joke, with the current taxes, and operational fees charged, by NAV Canada, etc. Will someone, PLEASE post the compensation for the NAV CANADA (ATC) employees.

I flew with an F/O who told me that his spouse, quit flying after 15 years to go into Nav Canada, as it paid better in the very first year of service.

We, the pilots, are not the problem, Look at Southwest.

We the pilots are the solution, and we keep the operation SAFE, Viable, and we are productive versus our compensation.

Can you honestly, say that Senior management is worth their compensation?

AC legacy costs, are below the wing costs, and above the first floor of management.

How much money is in the Executive compensation fund at AC? How much does the indexed pensions of senior management cost per hour?

Miltons, pension, 600,000.00 per year, and it is indexed. CR is getting a pension now, and he is also getting millions in compensation. AC paid 28 million in cargo fines last year. Do you, the pilot, really need to give up your chicken shit wages, even more to support this crazzzzy world.

Milton raped, and then screwed everyone. CR was his right handman. Do you think for a moment, that anyone in the government or in senior management at AC cares a damn about you and your family? We are in this together, and we fight together, or we die off, one by one. The old saying, "Hang together, or hang individually."

How much money went out the window since last CCAA, on fuel hedging mistakes, cargo fixing fines, executive severance funds, hedge funds, finders fees, placement fees, language training, that is forced onto AC, etc. etc. times a million.

We the pilots are not the problem, so stop making it worse. Put RESPECT back into the pilot position, for all pilots, regardless of which company they fly for, and see what good, positive, change can be made with forward, upward thinking and action.

Unity, is our only hope. We need to stop feeding the fire of what others want to see.

[Fanblade]

The old saying, "Hang together, or hang individually."

Unity, is our only hope. We need to stop feeding the fire of what others want to see.

I can't help but wonder if this is what Pan Am was like.

The past is the past. Milton doesn't care. Your willingness to go down with the ship to spite him is absurd? He won't even notice.

Fixed costs that all the competition pays is not the problem. Yes it drives people across the boarder. Yes it forces price points that deters air travel. But it has nothing to do with our cost competitiveness with those we compete with for the traffic that is left.

You know I have talked to people who were at Ac during CCAA. One of the problems I notice is that it was not nearly as painful as it normally would have been, because the players weren't after sustainability. They were chasing monitization. Unfortunately as a result there seems to be this fearlessness in the face of insolvency.

There is nothing left. This place has been gutted. 9 billion back in debt.....again. There won't be much left to be united with if CCAA happens again. And it will unless something changes. That simple.

Do some basic math people. In good times AC profit is less than a penny for every dollar of revenue. The margin is too tight. With a margin like that you go from crisis to crisis to crisis. With a margin like that you get POS contracts. With a margin like that a sneeze and your bankrupt. With a margin like that no pension is safe. With a margin like that the company's value is shit. With a margin like that borrowing is expensive.

It is simple. Costs must go down. If they do not go down? The company will.