thwaites decision

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Al707
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Al707 »

Rockie "entire world has gone to 65"

Check your "facts"!! Keep saying it till it's actually true :roll:
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Rockie
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Rockie »

Al707 wrote:Rockie "entire world has gone to 65"

Check your "facts"!! Keep saying it till it's actually true :roll:
You're right. Air Canada hasn't.

What do your trend analysis skills tell you is happening in the world in general, and specifically within Canada regarding this issue? If you want to roll your eyes at something what's your opinion about a pilot group and union that thinks they can live in isolation to Canadian law, and somehow convince the legal system that the ICAO age 65 (for PIC's only) actually means age 60 for everybody?

I would roll my eyes at that except it doesn't come close to expressing the disbelief and disappointment in our group. Where are these analytical skills pilots are supposed to have? Some people are openly acknowledging that the rules are changing and there is nothing anybody can do about it, but I have to wonder what took them so long. Even then nobody is questioning why ACPA has still not figured it out, or how much this debacle is likely to cost the pilots.

Every employee group at Air Canada is smarter than the pilots because they all figured this out a long time ago. But like the slow kid in class we STILL don't get it.
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SilentMajority
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by SilentMajority »

Morry Bund wrote:
SilentMajority wrote:This might be dead and buried by year end.
Not sure what "this" you are referring to. What might be dead and buried, mandatory retirement by reason of a new collective agreement, or ACPA's willingness to continue filing appeals?
"This" ......refers to the continuing nonsense of fighting the inevitable.
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Al707
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Al707 »

My point was and still is... the "entire world" and "everyone" isn't accurate and you should do more research before trying to convince everyone about something that isn't factual!

Countries perhaps but Companies NO...
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Les Lavoie
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Les Lavoie »

Mig29 wrote:
Norwegianwood wrote:Lufthansa pilots win ageism case at European court Lufthansa is the EU's biggest airline
Europe's top court has ruled that a ban by Lufthansa on pilots flying past the age of 60 is illegal, in a case brought by three flight captains.
Huge support as always! Never the less, the "ME" generation is going to eventually get what they want, on the expense of the majority of pilots who abide by the same contract for years.

So as I said before, let there be an LOU between two 'warring' parties to make 1 for 1 deal. One "overdue" pilot for one "early" retirement pilot with no reduction in pension benefits.

Deal? :wink:
For the record, the ''ME'' generation that is used these days refers to individuals born during the late 70's to mid 80's. Hardly the people that are fighting this discrimination case. Also for the record, I am one of those individuals and I was born in the 40's
Also for the record, I proposed to the officials at ACPA, back in 2005, a detailed mechanism of what you are advocating re one past 60 retirement pilot for one pre 60 retirement pilot with no reduction in pension benefits and I was laughed '' out of the office'' with great scorn and derision. Would you beleive it was a cost saving to AC. If you archived any of the ACPA forum writings, it will be easy to find proof of what I just wrote.
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Rockie
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by Rockie »

Al707 wrote:My point was and still is... the "entire world" and "everyone" isn't accurate and you should do more research before trying to convince everyone about something that isn't factual!

Countries perhaps but Companies NO...
My point has been and still is, that age based mandatory retirement in Canada has been considered discriminatory for many years now. The same increasingly applies to the rest of the civilized world. In 2006 ICAO raised the upper age limit for PIC's to 65 and with few exceptions the entire world belongs to ICAO. In August 2009 the CHRT ruled against Air Canada and ACPA removing the "normal retirement age" exemption as a valid argument and the Federal Court upheld that ruling. The Federal Government has announced plans to remove the exemption altogether from the Canadian Human Rights Act. The most recent ruling in the Thwaites case which was exhaustively more considered (19 months) than the previous BFOR ruling eviscerated Air Canada's and ACPA's argument for BFOR. The fact that the complaint was dismissed was an error on the part of the tribunal that all parties have begun to address. Even if the tribunal ends up ruling the 15(1)(c) exemption is constitutional and in Air Canada's favour, the Federal Court has already weighed in on a previous case, so it doesn't take a detective to figure out which way that will end.

ACPA has been wasting years and LOTS of money (they still haven't said how much) fighting a war that a school child can see will inevitably be lost. They have been accumulating potentially millions of dollars in liability that they volunteered to pay half of in the hopes of either winning outright or at least delaying the inevitable, apparently not realizing even now that those people unfairly forced out of their jobs will likely get them back. That will create disruption and chaos many times greater than just keeping them on in the first place.

Air Canada pilots need to seriously ask themselves if ACPA has been upholding their legal and ethical responsibility to represent all members. We each need to critically assess if ACPA has violated the DFR requirement in the Canada Labour Code by exercising discrimination and bad faith representation against their own members, because the next time it may be you. In that regard it's instructive to look at what virtually every other union is doing and realistically deciding if we alone are right, and everybody else is wrong.

While ACPA has been abetting Air Canada in their own destruction they refuse to prepare in any way for the change that will eventually be forced upon them overnight.

You can waste even more time quibbling about semantics if you like. But instead I suggest you start giving this issue a lot of serious objective thought and begin questioning ACPA's actions so far rather than blindly accepting them as favourable to you...because in the long run they're not.
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sepia
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by sepia »

Rockie wrote:instead I suggest you start giving this issue a lot of serious objective thought and begin questioning ACPA's actions so far rather than blindly accepting them as favourable to you...because in the long run they're not.
Glad to know you're looking out for my best interests so selflessly.
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SilentMajority
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Re: thwaites decision

Post by SilentMajority »

sepia wrote:
Rockie wrote:instead I suggest you start giving this issue a lot of serious objective thought and begin questioning ACPA's actions so far rather than blindly accepting them as favourable to you...because in the long run they're not.
Glad to know you're looking out for my best interests so selflessly.
Actually Rockie is and has been doing so for some time....but alas, it seems that some have trouble seeing past the next Equipment Assignment Bid.
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