50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

[Legacy]

(80% of Jazz, Porter, Hawkair, Perimeter, North Cariboo)

My crude math puts that at around 60K/year for a Q400 Captain. "Race to the Bottom," we all carry a piece of that cross.

This may be a new low, the US style regionals paying poverty wages. Worse of all - Pilots in the industry will defend it.

All in the name of defending their respective employer, instead of defending the Profession.

The few at WJ pulling the big T4's fly 18 - 20 days / Month, no offence guys but you can keep it.

I think you are jumping the gun on your opinion of what starting pay would be. If it is going to be that low i am sure the pilot group will shoot it down. We arent in it to eat our young. There is already discussions on our forum about some things not being fair for the regional pilots. So for us to even go down that route is showing we already are lloking out for the regional pilots concerns. This isnt ACPA or ALPA btw. Not sure what you mean about the flying 18-20 days per month but we dont fly that much here. 16 tops. Usually less.

[YYZSaabGuy]

[quote="watermeth"]Within 2 years WJ buys 51% of porter's shares after their IPO and operates a single fleet type spread all over canada from west to east, connecting main hubs to "remote" airports and thus creating a reliable domestic network.
/quote]
Actually, that crashing noise a couple of days ago was the Porter IPO completing a CFIT. Potential investors are going to look at Westprop's impact on consolidated industry yields and profitability and run screaming in the other direction.

[Stu Pidasso]

Not sure what you mean about the flying 18-20 days per month but we dont fly that much here. 16 tops. Usually less.

It's a small world and an even small industry. I (we) all have plenty of friends flying for both Airlines. I know plenty of Westjetters with their nose firmly in the overtime (pig flying) trough.

[Bede]

Not sure what you mean about the flying 18-20 days per month but we dont fly that much here. 16 tops. Usually less.

It's a small world and an even small industry. I (we) all have plenty of friends flying for both Airlines. I know plenty of Westjetters with their nose firmly in the overtime (pig flying) trough.

WTF? That's as much as an AC or Jazz reserve holder flies, and we're getting paid handsomely for it. I added $1000 to my paycheque (that's net) last week by doing 2 days of overtime and I'm only a 2nd year FO. And we're lowering the bar?

[Disco Stu]

Other interesting note is te reference to paying below market MEDIAN.

There is a HUGE difference between MEDIAN and AVERAGE/MEAN.

HUGE.

[Big Pistons Forever]

So race to the bottom at WJ Regional?

wholly owned subsidiary, separate OC and list
Pilots will earn 80% of regional industry median (80% of Jazz, Porter, Hawkair, Perimeter, North Cariboo)
Flow through to mainline at 4 to 1 ratio with off the street
Mainline to Regional and back once in a career but go to year 1 payscale and conditions of the regional, so poverty wages and no guarantee to get back to mainline unless a "spot" opens up
Mainline block hour and fin guarantee of 2012 levels going forward but can change due to "economic uncertainty"
Only eligible for 10% ESP vs 20% at mainline
employee pays 50% of benefits vs 30% at mainline
Profit sharing same as at mainline
In event of layoff at mainline you bump down into regional

80% of regional median? Are you serious?

I hope the WJPA says no to this in a BIG way.

I have to say that I don't get the highlighted parts. The whole premise of the "WestJet WAWCONs" was to directly reward pilots for contributing to the company success.
Pilots can effect the cost of operating either, positively or negatively, in a very substantial way. The current model incentivizes efficiency and in the initial years was used to justify the initial low base wages and was IMO a major factor in what is now the WestJet culture. It also provides a powerfull disincentive to unionize as the ESP can't exist in a union environment. It was and is a brilliant model and has proven extremely successful yet the new T prop division reduces the incentives, adds benefit costs, and pays below industry standard. This does not sound like a model for a happy pilot group, which was the foundation of WestJet success...

Anyway it is early days yet and WestJet management seems to be unique in Western Airlines because they actually seem to listen to their pilots.

[yycflyguy]

Bede and everyone else at WJ:

My comments are not derogatory against WJ or its pilots but you guys need to know that this proposal is EXACTLY one of the issues that we have been dealing with at AC. Read any one of a dozen threads on the AC LCC. Without scope protection, you are going to get raped in the near future.

It is a global phenomena. If you are not familiar with it please read up on QANTAS and Jetstar and ask yourself if there are any parallels to the road your buddies in management want to take YOUR airline... the same upper management that wont be around for your 25 year career.

If you would like to know more of the battle between ACPA and the AC LCC initiatives you can contact me directly.

Best of luck.

[True North]

Bede and everyone else at WJ:

My comments are not derogatory against WJ or its pilots but you guys need to know that this proposal is EXACTLY one of the issues that we have been dealing with at AC. Read any one of a dozen threads on the AC LCC. Without scope protection, you are going to get raped in the near future.

It is a global phenomena. If you are not familiar with it please read up on QANTAS and Jetstar and ask yourself if there are any parallels to the road your buddies in management want to take YOUR airline... the same upper management that wont be around for your 25 year career.

If you would like to know more of the battle between ACPA and the AC LCC initiatives you can contact me directly.

Best of luck.

You are entirely missing the point. WJ is not AC. The fact that WJ management is talking to the employees about an idea, not a done deal, should be your first clue. Since you really don't know what is going on as you don't have the details, why don't you save the negative comments. At least that way you won't look quite so clueless when it all works out for them.

[yycflyguy]

Bede and everyone else at WJ:

My comments are not derogatory against WJ or its pilots but you guys need to know that this proposal is EXACTLY one of the issues that we have been dealing with at AC. Read any one of a dozen threads on the AC LCC. Without scope protection, you are going to get raped in the near future.

It is a global phenomena. If you are not familiar with it please read up on QANTAS and Jetstar and ask yourself if there are any parallels to the road your buddies in management want to take YOUR airline... the same upper management that wont be around for your 25 year career.

If you would like to know more of the battle between ACPA and the AC LCC initiatives you can contact me directly.

Best of luck.

You are entirely missing the point. WJ is not AC. The fact that WJ management is talking to the employees about an idea, not a done deal, should be your first clue. Since you really don't know what is going on as you don't have the details, why don't you save the negative comments. At least that way you won't look quite so clueless when it all works out for them.

Dude, put the Kool-aid down for a second and ask yourself honestly. Could this happen to me? It is exactly your attitude that your management will be counting on to slide 737's to a lower cost operation.

[Bede]

Dude, put the Kool-aid down for a second and ask yourself honestly. Could this happen to me? It is exactly your attitude that your management will be counting on to slide 737's to a lower cost operation.

Could happen to us? Sure it could, but will it? I will wait until I see some evidence that management want's to screw us, then I'll change my tune, but not before. All I see is an executive that wants to expand with a regional airline and is willing to consult the employee group. Why should we pilots be the one's to start the cycle of distrust that permeates your company. I'm not much of a rah-rah WJ type guy but I have yet to be disappointed by anyone at WJ.

Gregg and Cam (the COO) are smart enough to know that screwing the pilots will result in a radically different corporate culture and may result in the loss of their jobs. Just look at what happened to other executives that tried this.

[True North]

Bede and everyone else at WJ:

My comments are not derogatory against WJ or its pilots but you guys need to know that this proposal is EXACTLY one of the issues that we have been dealing with at AC. Read any one of a dozen threads on the AC LCC. Without scope protection, you are going to get raped in the near future.

It is a global phenomena. If you are not familiar with it please read up on QANTAS and Jetstar and ask yourself if there are any parallels to the road your buddies in management want to take YOUR airline... the same upper management that wont be around for your 25 year career.

If you would like to know more of the battle between ACPA and the AC LCC initiatives you can contact me directly.

Best of luck.

You are entirely missing the point. WJ is not AC. The fact that WJ management is talking to the employees about an idea, not a done deal, should be your first clue. Since you really don't know what is going on as you don't have the details, why don't you save the negative comments. At least that way you won't look quite so clueless when it all works out for them.

Dude, put the Kool-aid down for a second and ask yourself honestly. Could this happen to me? It is exactly your attitude that your management will be counting on to slide 737's to a lower cost operation.

I don't drink the "koolaid", I don't work there. Just an interested, thoroughly impartial bystander.

[Mig29]

Rudder,

What is the rate for the DH8 guys (top and bottom)?

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... ation.html

Rudder I had the same question as Bede,
But can you de-factor the rate like u did for the 757, IE what is the cash allocated to a dash skipper before it's inflated with the 757 and RJ wage.

Cheers

Fish

I don't know about the RJ wage 'prop up' for DH8 is, but I can tell you that the 6 757s are providing a very minimal increase on the entire 1500 pilot group hourly rates at JZA. In fact, it's somewhere between 0.5-1.0%.

[yycflyguy]

Dude, put the Kool-aid down for a second and ask yourself honestly. Could this happen to me? It is exactly your attitude that your management will be counting on to slide 737's to a lower cost operation.

Could happen to us? Sure it could, but will it? I will wait until I see some evidence that management want's to screw us, then I'll change my tune, but not before. All I see is an executive that wants to expand with a regional airline and is willing to consult the employee group. Why should we pilots be the one's to start the cycle of distrust that permeates your company. I'm not much of a rah-rah WJ type guy but I have yet to be disappointed by anyone at WJ.

Gregg and Cam (the COO) are smart enough to know that screwing the pilots will result in a radically different corporate culture and may result in the loss of their jobs. Just look at what happened to other executives that tried this.

Good post Bede. Hope you are right. Cheers.

[CanadaEH]

If the Regional pay is 80% of the market median, wouldn't it be fair to say that 10% ESP and profit sharing would bring it up to 100% of the market median or more?

I have a lot of questions about the Regional concept but our Executive are making culture priority #1. We'll get this right.

[TheStig]

I bet every flight instructor, and 703 pilot likes this idea. The only opposition seems to be from those at AC. Grow up boys and be thankful we all have good paying jobs.

Bede,

I bet those instructors and 703 pilots would rather work for WestJet than its subsidiary. I may be the only non WestJet employee here who thinks this regional operation will be successful. It will prevent Porter from expanding westward and no doubt push Jazz, SkyRegional, PAL, and Perimeter to compete for every bit of market share. A regional airliner will no doubt allow WJ into new markets and more importantly allow WestJet to increase profitability on thinner routes not suited for a 737.

I'm sure that every WestJet pilot is excited about this, and your strong relationship with management will ensure that your concerns are adressesed going forward. No doubt WJhas been an excellent employer to it pilots, profit sharing and plenty of stock options has everyone aligned with the companies interests. I can see why there is no lack of goodwill and trust.

But just thinking critically, I cannot understand why you wouldn't want to keep this in house? Not having to work around scope rules will ensure that the airline will always be able to operate routes with the most profitable aircraft. I'd suspect that the check-in, call centre, ramp, (flight attendants?, dispatch?), and upper management will be the same, so Pilot's are then only ones being outsourced. Think about all the other issues that wouldn't have to be solved; fleet ratios, ASM ratios, flow through, standby travel priority, profit sharing, and so on.

Why doesn't WestJets management want to keep this under the same umbrella? Westjet and its employees have been successful largely because of the organizations unity, why spit up now?

[CAL]

wow I am kinda shocked this is the direction westjet is taking...and the wording in the memo to the employees seems to isolate the pilots....I am not convinced its going to work in the long haul...just a price war on these routes which is good for the consumer but bad for the guys who fly them....80% of an industry mean/average whatever that is already not all that great.....seems a shame it has come to this....I figured they would go bigger...best of luck to the guys at mainline and those coming into WJ Express....I hope the WJPA Members keep everyones future in mind when they vote...at least at what Greg is currently offering...

[altiplano]

Do all current employees get a 20% match on the stock? Ramp, cabin crew, CSR etc? or just the pilots? I assume all employee groups get the same coverage on extended health too?

Seems these thing are the most significant inequities, it's one thing to say we will pay $XX for flying a Q400 above/below standard is subject to interpretation, but to not give the same benefits as the other employees surprises me with what I understand WS culture to be - ie. equal partners in making the ship go, just getting paid differently based on position/responsibility from CEO to pilot to rampie.

Good to hear on the new undertaking though, well wishes from me on keeping the culture and building this new thing right!

[Jastapilot]

All employees have always had the opportunity to invest up to 20% of their pay into WJA shares, which is matched 100% by the company.

[Bede]

I bet those instructors and 703 pilots would rather work for WestJet than its subsidiary.

No doubt. It's just that WJ doesn't hire many 703 pilots and flight instructors. The majority of new hires for WJ are off 705 jets. This venture will get them an "in" to WJ by working for a decent regional carrier.

I'm sure that every WestJet pilot is excited about this, and your strong relationship with management will ensure that your concerns are adressesed going forward.

To be honest, this venture doesn't really benefit me directly, but I do believe it will benefit the company and I do believe it will benefit pilots in general. When I first had the experience to qualify for a move from the 703 world, there was really only Jazz to go to. Now we have many more operators for a pilot to choose from. The more firms have to compete with labour, the higher wages tend to be. This is basic economics. Imagine if there was only one firm to provide labour to competing employees- employees would become price takers. In other words, employees take a wage whatever is offered by the employer. On the other hand, say you're a superstar CEO with many firms chasing you, the firm becomes the price taker- the employee sets the price and the employer has to meet it. I want to be the employers to be price takers. Multiple firms shift the curve in that direction.

But just thinking critically, I cannot understand why you wouldn't want to keep this in house?

Great point. I agree. I do believe that this should be done in house. I think it would be better for everyone and it is a concern I will bring up if I can ever make it to a townhall (I work on all the townhall days). Hopefully management has a justifiable answer. However, just because I would prefer this venture to be done under one roof doesn't mean I'm opposed to WJ starting a regional carrier and certainly doesn't mean that I'll fight tooth and nail against it.

[Franky Jr]

I say vote Yes for below industry standard wages, high benefits, and 2nd class treatment to WestDad! That would be the smrt pilot thing to do.
And I am sure our share price will sky rocket, I mean since WJ announced these plans yesterday the stock is down 1.5%. I think everyone will be millionaires all over again. ( especially at 10% match ). Vote YES

[CanadianEh]

All employees have always had the opportunity to invest up to 20% of their pay into WJA shares, which is matched 100% by the company.

Just out of curiosity, is there a vesting period for those shares?

[cjet]

Yes, Stock must be held for one year.

CJET

[Jastapilot]

And after a year you have full control over what happens to those shares. They're yours.

[commonsense]

[/quote]

I dunno stu,
You must have some time off from collecting signatures to displace guys in our own shop. Here we have an AC union guy telling WJ shame! Lol.

As for the race to the bottom, it's the same story as before when WJ first opened. Captains making 60k etc.. Everyone said they are ruining the industry. Now look.

I have a buddy who has been there 11 yrs and he paid 100 k in tax alone for 2011...

So what you are saying is for example a 1000 hr pilot working in the bush could get on there and have a flow thru to mainline( the 1 to 4 ratio is a minimum btw) sounds like a solid carreer. Clearly there is a different expectation here vs a guy with 5000 hrs. These aren't poverty wages IMO...
Flying for a stable company, taking a stick to AC, equal travel benefits, full healthcare and support from mainline, flow thru, no double standard, new airplanes, mainline leadership. I really can't see the problem here because these guys are all playing in the same sandbox to promote growth and go wide body down the road. They will feel like they are contributing unlike jazz. Because they have something to gain as well. 80 percent median pay is a moot point.

Cost is king

I just hope every Westjet pilot considers what a good deal this would be if the same type of agreement was negotiated for a larger aircraft type being introduced at Westjet. I am guessing the company will be selling this as a building block for future growth into wide body airplanes. Easy to sell out the new regional pilots for less than industry standard wages and working conditions and only 1-4 ratio flow-thru. If larger aircraft were introduced and there was only 1-4 ratio of existing Westjet to off the street and below mainline ESOP and benefits I am guessing there would be outrage in the Westjet pilot group.

On a side note, What percent ESOP and how much of the benefits are paid by flight attendants at Westjet?

[Dockjock]

Now's the time for scope. It all sounds nice, and nobody's really too concerned because well, it's a dash 8 operation and it's a flow down concern only ie. It's an FO issue (every single captain will vote yes). But without scope, 5 years from now when your B787's are on the way at another wholly owned subsidiary and you have a 1 to 4 ratio to get there, not so nice then. But you can't complain because you have no contractual right to that work, do you?
Training costs a ton- money, lost productivity, infrastructure, all those costs are avoided by only two methods: subsidiary silos or bidding restrictions. This is your first silo; sure there is a nominal ability to flow either way, but it comes with major restrictions and harsh ones.
Throw a 20-ship b787 fleet on top of your operation and let's see how interested management is in losing their top 200 b737 CA's to staffing up the new division. Much easier, cheaper is to hire off the street, in a new silo er, wholly owned subsidiary. Hey lookit that who has a whole crap ton of qualified B787 drivers across the road? Why not just hire those guys?
But, but, but.....
Get a scope clause!
So, in that respect this is good for pilots, just maybe not WestJet pilots. B)