Air Canada moves to lock out pilots

[yycflyguy]

Rudder you quiter.

You are about to give to CR through lack of situational awareness what he could not get in the CCAA process.

Um, give? No.

The public will never view the pilots as victims. All that they want is cheap fares and reliable service

They are about to get exactly NEITHER from AC.

Planning rallies as a show of force and solidarity is a colossal waste of time.

You imply that this only is significant for AC pilots. This reckless government has served notice to every pilot and every union member in Canada that the Canada Labour Code and the Charter of Human Rights does not apply to this government. They are conducting themselves above the law. 3000 pilots will not accept that. Will you?

[mel gibson]

Rudder,

Thanks for your input?

What Air Canada needs to do is get more foreign pilots and aircraft
and base them in a country other than Canada to avoid the lazy, high
cost entitled work force that pays 30-40% of thier pay every month to support
the majority of Canadians who try and avoid paying taxes.

At the very least, contract a number of foreign pilots and aircraft in Canada,
"seasonally ", of course and plead your case to the government that they are essential
to the regional economies, just like farm workers.

Do you actually talk to the Thomas Cook pilots in the crew room in
Calgary. " Hey mate, we love everyone and we love you!"
" It must be really neat to fly the 757, eh? I fly a Boeing as well!"

Please refer to my earlier post and enjoy the drama.
Remember what goes around comes around.
Listen to the Labour Minister and how she keeps making reference
to essential needs we provide to northern communities,
"Ice pilots, Air Canada edition."
I would rather be called a "dumba$$" by Joe than be robbed
blind by big business and the government.

[Canoehead]

Just in case you have the stomach for it, here's a link that gets you into the debate, and further down, a list of the MP's who voted for and against.
My MP is Kellie Leitch. She will get another letter from me sating my disappointment, and reminding her to not bother coming to my front door during the next campaign.
The finger has been given to Canadian labour yet again, while the "Kevin O'Leary's" in their luxurious offices are high-fiving each other.

Parliament Transcripts

[momentoftruth]

The pilots have always have always held the trump card but are too afraid of the boogeyman to use it. Last time I checked neither The Rat or the Colon can fly an airplane.

Hopefully the new MEC chairman still has the fortitude he displayed back in the late 90's.

Good Luck

You guys still don't get it. Take a look around, don't you see the opposing forces surrounding you? Who are your allies? Do you have any? What is your plan? Do you know what happens next? Read the legislation, it is extremely onerous. You are about to give to CR through lack of situational awareness what he could not get in the CCAA process.

Sure JMB was slick on TV more than a decade ago, but history has never looked back and judged that strike as a success. Whatever the strategy was then will not be of any use now. Withdrawal of services and work-to-rule have already been taken off the table by the Feds.

I look forward to the sound bites and interviews (in both official languages ) but if the message is just bluster and bombast then it is not going to change the outcome. Stop treating this as a PR war (which you will never win - just ask the Electro Motive workers). The public will never view the pilots as victims. All that they want is cheap fares and reliable service. And you have already lost the political battle on Parliament Hill. Instead, you would be better served to work on a corporate solution that is better than the one that is being presented by CR.

The message is already out there: economic viability and competitiveness of Air Canada and the sustainability of its pension plan. Even the market and perhaps the Feds would be interested in hearing something from the pilots about that. You need to outgun the gunslinger himself.

Unfortunately, if you have not already begun that initiative time is running out. Planning rallies as a show of force and solidarity is a colossal waste of time.

rudder... you appear to be "caught in irons."
You are not alone!
Your quote above, even in despair, has heart/hope and care.
... "You need to outgun the gunslinger himself."
The jackboots and sociopaths have been, and always will be, among us.
Our fore fathers taught us, in spite of them, we always have choices.
Yes, it is pretty dark out there right now!
Confidence is high that sails will fill and rudder restore.

[teacher]

Sadly "Rudder" is right.

We (as pilots) have to stop thinking like union folk and start thinking like business people. The more more more demand just doesn't cut it in this day and age. You have to change your way of thinking. We were faced with this same situation at Jazz and instead of being forced into arbitration we altered our demands and came up with a pretty good contract for all involved. Now, we had a lot more upside potential than you AND our employer was not as hell bent on breaking us HOWEVER your tactics and demands from what I've seen and heard have not changed to meet the times.

This isn't being a quiter it's being realistic. Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes, how much of a dick he's being, how much you used to make OR why the company is actually losing money. Those are red herrings to follow into the abiss. This is not the playground it is business, playing nice is for a time long gone.

Focus on YOU, THE PILOTS and YOURSELVES. Think like a capitalist not a Captain!!!!!!

[Bede]

Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!

[altiplano]

What is the timeline for the arbitration process?

What kind of proposal is the union putting forward? I assume company will put out TA1?

How is it expected to affect recent / new hires?

[CanadianEh]

Rudder,

Thanks for your input?

What Air Canada needs to do is get more foreign pilots and aircraft
and base them in a country other than Canada to avoid the lazy, high
cost entitled work force that pays 30-40% of thier pay every month to support
the majority of Canadians who try and avoid paying taxes.

At the very least, contract a number of foreign pilots and aircraft in Canada,
"seasonally ", of course and plead your case to the government that they are essential
to the regional economies, just like farm workers.

Do you actually talk to the Thomas Cook pilots in the crew room in
Calgary. " Hey mate, we love everyone and we love you!"
" It must be really neat to fly the 757, eh? I fly a Boeing as well!"

Please refer to my earlier post and enjoy the drama.
Remember what goes around comes around.
Listen to the Labour Minister and how she keeps making reference
to essential needs we provide to northern communities,
"Ice pilots, Air Canada edition."
I would rather be called a "dumba$$" by Joe than be robbed
blind by big business and the government.

Me thinks mel gibson is a pissed off air canada shareholder who lost his shirt. The sad thing about Air Canada shareholders is that they don't realize that the Air Canada pilots want exactly what they (hopefully) want; a sustainable, healthy and united company. Not an ATM for corporate pigs.

[CanadianEh]

Sadly "Rudder" is right.

We (as pilots) have to stop thinking like union folk and start thinking like business people. The more more more demand just doesn't cut it in this day and age. You have to change your way of thinking. We were faced with this same situation at Jazz and instead of being forced into arbitration we altered our demands and came up with a pretty good contract for all involved. Now, we had a lot more upside potential than you AND our employer was not as hell bent on breaking us HOWEVER your tactics and demands from what I've seen and heard have not changed to meet the times.

This isn't being a quiter it's being realistic. Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes, how much of a dick he's being, how much you used to make OR why the company is actually losing money. Those are red herrings to follow into the abiss. This is not the playground it is business, playing nice is for a time long gone.

Focus on YOU, THE PILOTS and YOURSELVES. Think like a capitalist not a Captain!!!!!!

Correct, however, did you watch your company have the value YOU created stripped from it and given to Robert Milton and ACE shareholders? Did YOU have to take concessions in spite of the fact that you did your best to make this company run smoothly? If you did and still believe AC pilots are out of line by not giving up more, you're crazy.

[CanadianEh]

Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!

That is actually quite a smart idea Bede.

[ChallengerDan]

Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!

That is actually quite a smart idea Bede.

in theory, maybe. Try to find a broker that will let you sell short a 0.95$ stock. Good luck. risk/reward ration is way too high.

[CanadianEh]

Bang on Teacher.

If I was on the AC MEC here is what I would do: start a strategic fund funded by the pilots and use all that money to short AC stock. Leverage as much as you can. Then drive AC into the ground and reap the rewards that way. The execs end up with no stock options and you're laughing.

THINK LIKE A CAPITALIST NOT LIKE A CAPTAIN!!

That is actually quite a smart idea Bede.

in theory, maybe. Try to find a broker that will let you sell short a 0.95$ stock. Good luck. risk/reward ration is way too high.

That's true, usually stocks need to be over $5. Although some have it above $1.

[teacher]

Sadly "Rudder" is right.

We (as pilots) have to stop thinking like union folk and start thinking like business people. The more more more demand just doesn't cut it in this day and age. You have to change your way of thinking. We were faced with this same situation at Jazz and instead of being forced into arbitration we altered our demands and came up with a pretty good contract for all involved. Now, we had a lot more upside potential than you AND our employer was not as hell bent on breaking us HOWEVER your tactics and demands from what I've seen and heard have not changed to meet the times.

This isn't being a quiter it's being realistic. Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes, how much of a dick he's being, how much you used to make OR why the company is actually losing money. Those are red herrings to follow into the abiss. This is not the playground it is business, playing nice is for a time long gone.

Focus on YOU, THE PILOTS and YOURSELVES. Think like a capitalist not a Captain!!!!!!

Correct, however, did you watch your company have the value YOU created stripped from it and given to Robert Milton and ACE shareholders? Did YOU have to take concessions in spite of the fact that you did your best to make this company run smoothly? If you did and still believe AC pilots are out of line by not giving up more, you're crazy.

Yes actually. WE at Jazz took haircuts twice to save AC money, once during CCAA and again in 2009. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC purchase regional airline assets and sell THAN lease back aircraft that were bought and paid for years prior. Yes WE at Jazz watched several different successful airlines be merged than gutted to become nothing more than a feeder airline for a failing company. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC use our airline as a means to line YOUR shareholders' pockets by creating a trust with a lucrative contract and distribution only to divest itself of the asset THAN claim that it's too expensive but now saddled with a dividend it may one day have trouble paying.

My posts are not meaned as an insult, they are intended as a wake up call to the old guard still fighting yesterdays war. Fight capitalism with capitalism. Come up with new ideas, new ways of achieving the same goals. Change your offer, negotiate something different, better, more with the times. Failure to do so and you might as well sign on the dotted line for TA1.

[CanadianEh]

Yes actually. WE at Jazz took haircuts twice to save AC money, once during CCAA and again in 2009. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC purchase regional airline assets and sell THAN lease back aircraft that were bought and paid for years prior. Yes WE at Jazz watched several different successful airlines be merged than gutted to become nothing more than a feeder airline for a failing company. Yes WE at Jazz watched AC use our airline as a means to line YOUR shareholders' pockets by creating a trust with a lucrative contract and distribution only to divest itself of the asset THAN claim that it's too expensive but now saddled with a dividend it may one day have trouble paying.

My posts are not meaned as an insult, they are intended as a wake up call to the old guard still fighting yesterdays war. Fight capitalism with capitalism. Come up with new ideas, new ways of achieving the same goals. Change your offer, negotiate something different, better, more with the times. Failure to do so and you might as well sign on the dotted line for TA1.

I like where you're going with this, but it all comes back to supply and demand.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20 ... ll-120313/

Paul Strachan mentions in this interview the belief that depending on how the binding arbitration goes we could see pilots heading elsewhere for jobs. If you look at the number of pilots, especially EMJ FOs taking a LOA, It's not out of the realm of possibility that pilots will leave. As Paul also mentions when asked "If there are better places to go than AC, why don't they just go?", many AC pilots stick around for the pension and because they want to live and raise their families in Canada.

[teacher]

Oh I know, supply and demand is simply why Asian and European pilots generally make more than North American ones. I say generally because there are exceptions to every rule. It costs over $100,000 to get a commercial license in Europe. That alone is an instant barrier to entry and limits the pilot pool. In North America we as pilots have been on the wrong side of that curve for a long time. Things are slowly moving back in our favour but we have a LONG way to go. Sadly we may be so used to crap pay that even when it's in our favour we might not know any different

[ratherbee]

What is the timeline for the arbitration process?

What kind of proposal is the union putting forward? I assume company will put out TA1?

How is it expected to affect recent / new hires?

90 days I believe.

Actually, we don't know what ACPA has put forward. More than likely big raises, all the jets, and keep the pension. The Company pulled TA1 off the table and offered up much less. Zero raise for the first year, outsource the small jets, and DC for the new hires.

Recent hires are somewhat protected but there will be fewer jobs for any new hires, if at all. No LCC. No Jetstar though either.

[Jack Klumpus]

Your company is losing money, you're pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada. It doesn't matter what the CEO makes,

LOL

38k/yr is pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada.

Total pilot salaries amount to no more of 4% of AC's pay structure no? So lets say we lose 1%, this alone will make AC all the money?

LOL

[teacher]

38k/yr is pretty much at the top end of payscales in Canada.

Total pilot salaries amount to no more of 4% of AC's pay structure no? So lets say we lose 1%, this alone will make AC all the money?

LOL

Touche, FO pay sucks BUT if you took all wages paid divided by number of airplanes flown it'd be pretty darn good. It just happens to be weighted in the senior pilot and wide body side. I don't disagree that ALL pilots should make more than we do, but when negotiating it's hard to ask for a big raise when your peer group is making as much or less than you. You can't just look at CASH MONEY either, compensation comes in different forms be it wages, pension, benefits, perdiems and even lifestyle/scheduling. Someone might make more than you BUT do they work more? Are their reserve, reassignment or scheduling rules more flexable to the employer?

It's hard to push up the ceiling but dangerously easy to step off the ladder.

[chatman]

Rumor in Wpg.. that mechanics are rolling their toolboxes out of the hangar. I am sure there is a huge investment in those tools.

They are worried that they will be locked out due to bankruptcy of Aveos

[ragbagflyer]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/114 ... ll-in-sick

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20 ... ns-120317/

[The Fish]

Canada Eh,

Why are you so interested in the internal business of Air Canada , other than being a troll.

Worry about your own house.

First , you have foreign pilots operating a 757 from Calgary to Honolulu on behalf of Westjet.
What route is next. Keep getting that cheap European labour as their economy is in the tank for a long time.

Oh ya, there is Westjet Regional. Westjet pilots are angry, and complain , but cannot say anything as they have no protection. They fear for their jobs. Oh ya, 91 percent voted for it, good luck on your Calgary to Brandon run. You could really use some Air Canada travel website info with this venture.
The days of 1000 hour years will be gone. The new rest limitations will be coming , in line with the United States . But will be handled by your new regional airline . The low cost regional will be able to take care of that Vancouver turn from Calgary.
Flica will be great as a Q400 will do that dropped flying for you. Those 1.5 per hour overtime days will dry up, and pilots will be livid.

And then you have your mainline FAs bragging to the regional FAs on how they use to slum it in Grande Prairie , but now do their long Cancun layovers. I have seen it all my friend. History repeats itself. The regional employees will soon resent you. I have heard they were pondering one list for the pilots. You will pay for this blunder not to do this.

You have become Alaska Airlines. Gee wizz, did your CEO not come from there? I know he was gunning for the big job there but could not get it as he was a Canadian. His brother works for Air Canada.

Fancy that, that is what we are trying to do, is protect Canadian jobs as they were protecting coveted American jobs.

Oh wait, the new runway that is started in Calgary will be the right length for an Emirates A380 , whom you just signed an agreement with. Only if Emirates can get landing rights there. Just wait, it will happen. I guarantee it.
Honestly, check out how Emirates destroyed the airline industry in Australia.

Your agreement with Delta will prevent any sort of widebody growth. Good luck with the 787.

Stupid industry.

There could be a meger of Westjet and Air Canada some day, who knows ?
The industry changes every 10 years.

Fly safe, because ultimately that is what it is all about.

Good luck

Mel, Mel, Mel!!

We all know you're a hater!! obviously a WestJet hater.

But bad news Pal " Canada Eh" and "CanadianEh" are two different people!!!

Near as i can tell the lad you're so angry at is just an opinionated private pilot with aspirations of flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog s**t outta Hong Kong!

Yes WestJet used a few Limeies for the 757 Stuff, But really who else could do it?? Jazz?? I personally would have preferred a Canadian entity, but there were no domestic options last year. 2012/2013 will be a little closer to home

Anyways Mel

Point your anger in the right direction!
Just so u don't forget

Mel hates "Canada Eh" = WestJetter WHO HASN'T POSTED IN THIS THREAD!!!

Mel tried to hate "CanadianEH" private Pilot

BTW loved Brave heart!!!

Best of luck Mel

Fish

[mel gibson]

You know what I hate , is the degradation of the
pilot profession in Canada.

Why is a little real world advice from someone who has lived
what you are about to experience in the next few years,so bad?

I hate how pilots of other airlines benefit off the work
and fight of Canada's largest pilot group , and then
say we should just be happy to have a job.

Westjet's biggest fear was always the third carrier in Canada
eating their lunch. Porter is doing a good job in the Triangle.
Just wait, the low cost carrier will come and hurt you, until it
fails , that is.

And finally, I hate Capt. Highliner. So there , how does that feel?

[Mig29]

Don't be hatin' Mel, it's not good for your heart and digestive tract

[Mig29]

sorry guys, but I couldn't resist tossing in a bit of humor to break the tension a bit with the latest events....




And for all you pilots trying to find a good excuse how to park the plane for the day and not get in trouble....there are few tips in the following video!!




Fly safe everyone!

[teacher]

taaj is awesome!