AVEOS closes the doors

[CID]

This is hilarious! Typical union pawn who's bought in completely trying to deflect any little criticism using all the typical union tactics. Here's a clue for you Rockie. I've never worked for Air Canada, nor have the majority of Canadians. So how would I know the exact department names that are responsible for the various responsibilities of operations? What I do know is that the regulations require a dispatch department and however you and Air Canada want to slice it, (or name it) they are usually responsible for crewing the aircraft or at very least being in the loop when there are crewing issues. But that's not the main point of this discussion is it?

You've now taken the role of absolute deniability which is SO typical of union tactics. You don't care if there is overwhelming evidence or if the optics are damning. You will continue to deny any wrongdoing or bad intent by the "membership" or the "brotherhood" or whatever you're union calls their drooling clones.

Air Canada and their unionized workers are in the final phase of the union cycle. After decades of steadily decreasing worker accountability, higher wages, less productivity and a all but "gone" work ethic, the "workers" have adopted a scorched earth mentality. You guys accuse management of putting profit first while you put your customers "last". If you think Air Canada was sinking before, keep this garbage up and you won't have any passengers to worry about or a job to go to.

The company is sick and the environment is ripe for another company to step in and become the largest airline in Canada. It's time to do away with the Air Canada Act in order to break all ties with the government and erase any sense of inequality with respect to Air Canada. As one Air Canada employee stated way back when Canadian Airlines was on the ropes, "Just let them die".

[xsbank]

Interesting - Transport regulates everyone with SMS now, the government has declared AC as essential - how can you regulate AC if the threat of an OC suspension is impossible? Wonder if anyone in our moronic, central-planning Chinese wannabe government thought through how they were shooting their own ministry in the foot?

[Rockie]

CID

Your first paragraph proves my point that you have no idea what you're talking about. The rest is brainless, foaming at the mouth verbal diarrhea. Tell me, what is your opinion of Canadian's democratic right being consistently and summarily curtailed to support a political ideology?

[True North]

Well CID, If Rockie is a "typical union pawn" then you would be the perfect corporate shill. I don 't work for Air Canada either but I have friends who do. You claim there is "overwhelming evidence" that the pilots staged a sick out. Show me that evidence. ACPA has access to the crew scheduling records and have shared them with the pilots - at least the ones I have talked to - and there is nothing unusual about the staffing levels or book offs. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps AC management is playing this for all it's worth and trying to sway public opinion? Did you look at the weather both in YUL and YYZ during the timeframe of the alleged sick out? Did you notice the delays to the other carriers as well? From where I sit the main problem is very poor PR by ACPA. They have been totally outplayed by AC management.

[CID]

So I guess all Westjet employees are corporate shills too?

Now let's discuss Air Canada's corporate intentions. Think about it. If you ran Air Canada, would you risk destroying your public image by pushing the idea that their pilots are so irresponsible as to walk off the job leaving several passengers stranded??

It's in BOTH groups best interests to deny, deny, deny.

The "public" has it's own mind(s). My opinion doesn't come from Air Canada or their employees who are far too close to the story to be unbiased.

[True North]

So I guess all Westjet employees are corporate shills too?

No. Only you. I haven't heard a single WS employee suggest that we should "just let them fail". My friends that work for WS are actually very sympathetic to what the AC employees are going through right now and feel the government has overstepped its bounds.

Now let's discuss Air Canada's corporate intentions. Think about it. If you ran Air Canada, would you risk destroying your public image by pushing the idea that their pilots are so irresponsible as to walk off the job leaving several passengers stranded??

Are you f****** kidding me? You did just fall off the turnip truck didn't you.

The "public" has it's own mind(s). My opinion doesn't come from Air Canada or their employees who are far too close to the story to be unbiased.

Neither does mine. It comes from years of studying labour unrest and union/management tactics.

[Rockie]

So I guess all Westjet employees are corporate shills too?

Now let's discuss Air Canada's corporate intentions. Think about it. If you ran Air Canada, would you risk destroying your public image by pushing the idea that their pilots are so irresponsible as to walk off the job leaving several passengers stranded??

I fail to see what Westjet employees have to do with the government denying everybody under their jurisdiction the right to strike or Air Canada's labour relations. Please explain.

If you ran Air Canada would you break the company up and sell off the individual parts for a huge amount of money, and then disburse that money ($4+ BILLION in CASH) out to non-Air Canada shareholders?

Would you wantonly destroy what's left of employee morale and good will by refusing to negotiate agreements, and instead collude with the federal government to strip away employee rights and impose a draconian contract that you know will enrage the people dealing face to face with your customers?

Would you alienate and anger the people directly responsible for the safety of those customers, other crew-members and very, very expensive corporate assets?

If you answer no to any of the above questions then why the hell are you arguing with me? If you answer yes to any of them then you should apply to be an Air Canada executive. You'll fit right in.

[CID]

I wouldn't do any of those things because I wouldn't be involved in such a broken company. Besides, the activities you're describing are being put in the worst possible terms. Air Canada likely needs many of those solutions to remain in business with such an inefficient overpaid work force. But I digress....

So tell me, if YOU ran Air Canada would you continue to allow massive losses due to inefficiency? Would you sit on your hands as the highest paid workers in the industry are continuously involved in activities that alienate your clientele? Would you allow employees to sabotage your business without repercussions? (cut printer cables, phony flu, assaulting passengers as they enter the terminal)

Like I said, Air Canada is sick. All the way from the corporate shills to the lazy useless grunts hiding behind their "draconian" union contract. And it's been like this for decades. Every couple of years Canadians are held hostage by Air Canada and their associated unions. In the meanwhile, slowly but surely, Westjet get stronger and more successful......

By the way, I've never worked for Air Canada and over the last 2 months I've diverted all my air travel away from them. They are just too unpredictable.

[Rockie]

Besides, the activities you're describing are being put in the worst possible terms.

Those activities are being put in the driest, most factual terms possible.

Air Canada likely needs many of those solutions to remain in business with such an inefficient overpaid work force.

Really? Air Canada needs to move $4 billion in cash out of the company to stay in business? How is enraging every single employee (executive management excepted) going to help the company stay in business?

So tell me, if YOU ran Air Canada would you continue to allow massive losses due to inefficiency? Would you sit on your hands as the highest paid workers in the industry are continuously involved in activities that alienate your clientele? Would you allow employees to sabotage your business without repercussions? (cut printer cables, phony flu, assaulting passengers as they enter the terminal)

Correction, massive losses due to executive incompetence and breaking the bank trying to kill the competition instead of improving your own product.

It was the company who locked out the pilots. You don't think shutting down the business at the start of march break would alienate a few customers?

Take away people's livelihoods and you're going to have some very unhappy people, and that includes sarcastically clapping as the Minister responsible gets off an airplane. Hardly an assault by anybody's definition except you and Lisa Raitt.

[True North]

I wouldn't do any of those things because I wouldn't be involved in such a broken company.

That's a nice deflection yet you don't deny any of it is happening.

[azimuthaviation]

In the meanwhile, slowly but surely, Westjet get stronger and more successful

Kind of reminds me of Eaton's after they had to start competing against Walmart in the early 90's. They both offered a different solution for the same needs of the same demographic, people demanded less and the fact that Eaton's was a national institution didn't help them. Neither did relying on their historical significance or contributions to the development of Canada. Air Canada might be well advised to take notice.

[Colonel Sanders]

Take away people's livelihoods and you're going to have some very unhappy people

Not sure it matters, but you sure sound a lot like PATCO in 1981. They thought they were secure in their union jobs, too, until they ran up against a jolly fellow who starred in the immortal 1951 film, "Bedtime for Bonzo":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Rea ... .27_strike

Reagan fired 11,345 striking air traffic controllers ... As a leading reference work on public administration concluded, "The firing of PATCO employees not only demonstrated a clear resolve by the president to take control of the bureaucracy, but it also sent a clear message to the private sector that unions no longer needed to be feared."

I have no doubt that PATCO was pretty unhappy, too.

[Rockie]

Kind of reminds me of Eaton's after they had to start competing against Walmart in the early 90's. They both offered a different solution for the same needs of the same demographic, people demanded less and the fact that Eaton's was a national institution didn't help them. Neither did relying on their historical significance or contributions to the development of Canada. Air Canada might be well advised to take notice.

Eaton's wasn't an instrument of federal government policy and didn't have the federal government tilting the table in their favour. Left alone Air Canada wouldn't stand a chance against Westjet. But then again left alone Air Canada might have been forced to manage themselves like a business instead of a protected crown corporation.

We'll never know.

[Rockie]

Quote:
Take away people's livelihoods and you're going to have some very unhappy people


Not sure it matters, but you sure sound a lot like PATCO in 1981. They thought they were secure in their union jobs, too, until they ran up against a jolly fellow who starred in the immortal 1951 film, "Bedtime for Bonzo":

Irrelevant, nonsensical comparisons Hedley. Nobody, especially me, said we are secure in our jobs. Exactly the opposite actually if you had been paying even a smidgen of attention.

[Colonel Sanders]

Irrelevant, nonsensical comparisons

It's too bad I'm not as smart as you, Rockie!

[Rockie]

It's too bad I'm not as smart as you, Rockie!

Looking for pity?

[azimuthaviation]

Left alone Air Canada wouldn't stand a chance against Westjet

Im sure Air Canada would prefer to be left completely alone. Theyre still required by law to offer services WJ does not, to maintain routes that arent profitable, told where they must have their headquarters, where their maintenance is to be completed... Thats (almost) like the government privatizing the postal service but telling them they still have to deliver letters to tuktayuktuk for 45 cents, and still be expected to make a profit. Bottom line I think is tell the government to get out, dont do Air Canada, the union, or the travellers any favours, let the free market and private sector take care of themselves, theyll do a much better job.

[Rockie]

Im sure Air Canada would prefer to be left completely alone.

Not a chance. Successive government's have had their strings attached to Air Canada and pull them on a regular basis. The ACPPA is just the most obvious example. It would be extremely naive to think there wasn't a quid pro quo.

[xsbank]

God you guys are a bore. Quack quack quack...

[Rockie]

God you guys are a bore. Quack quack quack...

Feel free to read some other forum.

[CID]

So...the REAL question here (in my opinion) is if Air Canada is so terrible why do you (Rockie) put up with it and work there? You are obviously not committed to making things better and you have no faith in the leadership.

Yep...a real mystery.

[mbav8r]

How long before Air Canada puts out an ad for licenced techs and starts hiring them at year 1 pay? Or has Premiere lease the buildings and hire non-union members to carry out the same work. This was likely the plan all along and Jazz should be on notice. Here's a quote Jazz management should imprint on their brain,

Further, Air Canada claimed that Aveos management “has failed repeatedly to attract new business to expand and diversify its revenue stream. By its own admission in court filings, the company is not cost competitive and has suffered operating losses for several years.”

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/Aveos+fi ... mLeT[quote]

"Aveos became an independent company in 2007, although Air Canada still owns the maintenance facilities and leases them back to Aveos."

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/C ... z1q8han0Wh[/quote]

[Rockie]

So...the REAL question here (in my opinion) is if Air Canada is so terrible why do you (Rockie) put up with it and work there? You are obviously not committed to making things better and you have no faith in the leadership.

Yep...a real mystery.

Air Canada isn't terrible right now, but the company has plans to first make it terrible and then eventually disappear altogether. Why do you think CR wants to eliminate our scope clause? Do you even know what a scope clause is?

I would much rather keep my job under the same or better conditions than exist now. That to me doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care, and I'm willing to bet you feel the same about your job. So what is it you find so difficult to understand about that?

[Siddley Hawker]

Who actually owns Aveos?

http://www.montrealgazette.com/business ... story.html

[BverLuver]

Im sure Air Canada would prefer to be left completely alone.

Not a chance. Successive government's have had their strings attached to Air Canada and pull them on a regular basis./quote]


I thought EVERYTHING negative in this world was a direct result of a Canadian Conservative Government? Now you are suggesting its "Successive Governments"? Well, which is it? You are going in circles Rockie, maybe time to look out the window and regain situational awareness.

BL