Question about crosswind landing

[photofly]

Why knock it?

I agree that bit of fantasy is a good thing. But back to the flying...

Let's go back to the original comment I took exception to.

You fly your airplane like you have 200 people behind you. Even if you're an 'amateur', you should fly it like a pro. Always.

There's a whole lot of implied stuff in there that every student should fly like they're in an airliner, because that's what a 'pro' does.

That's a bad frame of mind in a trainer - it leads to flat approaches, moon-sized circuits, and an inability to cope when ATC keeps you on a tight downwind 1000 ft above the circuit until abeam the numbers then tells you "direct the threshold". If I have 200 people behind me in that situation I'm going to tell ATC that I'm unable to comply (or whatever is appropriate for the airliner that I don't fly). If I'm in a 172 I'm going to close the throttle, lower full flaps and start slipping. Flying with verve and precision, to the limits of the aircraft, like the flight instructor's guide says. Fly the airplane that you're in, not the one you hope you'll get to fly in 10 years time - that's my point.

The point was made in the context of holding yourself to high standards, which might mean not slipping the entirety of a long final. Fair enough. But the rationale behind that - that it's a bad idea only because a "pro" must have 200 people behind him and wouldn't do it for that reason - is fake.

[LousyFisherman]

. Add to that the complexity
on the transition from crab to slip to flair and..... it's often not a pretty thing.

It is really not all that difficult when you flare and kick out the crab and add some into wind aileron all at the same time...it is a timing thing.

And my timing sucks As I say I still practice, 10-15 knots, no gusts it's not a problem.

So the Colonel does not think much of " PPL's who can't land in a 5 knot crosswind"
And I state I can land in 25 knots gusting to 35 using a long slip. EASILY
But this is "unorthodox" (nice word by the way Cat)
Which do you want? Make up your minds.
I make no claim that it is the "right" way. just that it is an easier way.

The OP is uncomfortable in any slip.
The OP will not be able to land in any crosswind properly unless he is comfortable slipping.

Yet you all insist on teaching a relatively complex manoveur for crosswind landing, probably the highest level skill required to get a PPL. Why not teach the slipping landing and then show him/her how to compress the time in the slip until it is crab/quickslip/flare?

Of course, I am pretty sure there are more hours to be billed if you insist on teaching ab initio students crab/slip/flare. Just saying.

My $0.05 worth.
YMMV
Dave

[photofly]

When I did my primary training, I was taught to transition to a slip early on final, so I could practice getting the bank and rudder input correct. I was told that as I got better at it, I would feel comfortable entering the slip later and later. When I was competent, I'd be happy doing it just before the flare, which would be more comfortable for my passengers. But as a student I should do it earlier rather than later. Thinking that through, it still sounds like good advice to me.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Good morning L.F. :

I am about to go down to the lake to drill a hole in the floor of my motorhome to run the wires for my new inverter power and TV cable.

It is not my intention to denigrate you or your methods of landing, I was only giving my opinion of how I teach flying.

Yet you all insist on teaching a relatively complex manoveur for crosswind landing, probably the highest level skill required to get a PPL.

It is not a complex maneuver, actually it is quite easy once you get the hang of it.

Why not teach the slipping landing and then show him/her how to compress the time in the slip until it is crab/quickslip/flare?

Because slipping is a stand alone lesson and is taught at altitude.

I no longer give how to fly advice here on the forum in text form because it just ends up in a shit storm of arguments from other posters.

P.M. me and I will give you my phone number and if you wish I will explain on the phone how I teach these lessons....

......I won't even charge you.

[cgzro]

When landing a high performance tail dragger in a strong crosswind establishing a slip early and adjusting it as the gusts hit you to keep aligned with the runway prepares you early for what is required as you get near the ground. There is a constant reaction to the gusts with aileron and rudder that is hard to just suddenly start doing. many instructors that I had taught this early slip technique. I find this technique works well because it gets you hands feet and mind in the game early.

[Shiny Side Up]

When landing a high performance tail dragger in a strong crosswind establishing a slip early and adjusting it as the gusts hit you to keep aligned with the runway prepares you early for what is required as you get near the ground. There is a constant reaction to the gusts with aileron and rudder that is hard to just suddenly start doing. many instructors that I had taught this early slip technique. I find this technique works well because it gets you hands feet and mind in the game early.

This is my thought on this subject too. With more of a gusty wind, I'm more likely to start slipping sooner to get a feel for the gust component. Taildraggers and anything that approaches slow and/or doesn't have a lot of mass (and especially the combination) it tends to work better. But then I'm not a very good pilot so YMMV.

[PilotDAR]

Fly the airplane that you're in, not the one you hope you'll get to fly in 10 years time - that's my point.

The point was made in the context of holding yourself to high standards, which might mean not slipping the entirety of a long final. Fair enough. But the rationale behind that - that it's a bad idea only because a "pro" must have 200 people behind him and wouldn't do it for that reason - is fake.

I quite agree.

An while you're doing that, keep imagining, and expending your horizons. But, yes, fly the plane you're in, with precision, and pride, the way IT was meant to be flown.

[Canoehead]

There's a whole lot of implied stuff in there that every student should fly like they're in an airliner, because that's what a 'pro' does.

There's really nothing here that I implied. I'm afraid you read way to much into it. If you insist that my comment implies some kind of 'disrespect' for anyone who doesn't fly an airliner (and your 'taking exception' to my post ultimately sounds like that), then that is very shortsighted of you.

That's a bad frame of mind in a trainer - it leads to flat approaches, moon-sized circuits, and an inability to cope when ATC keeps you on a tight downwind 1000 ft above the circuit until abeam the numbers then tells you "direct the threshold". If I have 200 people behind me in that situation I'm going to tell ATC that I'm unable to comply (or whatever is appropriate for the airliner that I don't fly)

You are kidding right? Do you think that student pilots (or low time pilots) would seriously take my comment to mean that?

I think I'm sensing that 'beat your head against a wall' feeling that Cat and PilotDAR and the other 'experienced' posters feel here so very often. That's why I tend to read rather than write. Nothing like being told your advice is 'stupid, silly and wrong', especially by someone who does it by hiding behind a handle.

[Shiny Side Up]

You are kidding right? Do you think that student pilots (or low time pilots) would seriously take my comment to mean that?

Well, he does have a point with that. You can't make assumptions about what people might take from what you say, it has the bad tendancy to be taken to extreme. Case in point, at a lot of flight schools out there we see exactly that mentality, so its not just student pilots who've been affected by the idea that you should fly like you're flying what you want to fly, but whole generations of pilots to where its taken root in a significant portion of the instructing world.

That's just been my experience instructing. Students are very impressionable, particularly when stuff comes from people they percieve as their peers, but its easy for them to not realise the context.

'beat your head against a wall' feeling

Welcome to flight training.

[Schooner69A]

. Elsworth received some flak for this comment:

It is really not all that difficult when you flare and kick out the crab and add some into wind aileron all at the same time...it is a timing thing.

And I concur with him. It is a coordination manoeuver; if you can smoothly coordinate the controls to go into a sideslip turning base because you’re high, you can smoothly coordinate the controls coming out of a crab on short final (or closer) to align the aircraft with the runway and land. It just needs practice.

CanoeHead received some unfair castigation for the following:

You fly your airplane like you have 200 people behind you.”

I understood what he meant. I could add: “Even when you’re solo” which would have spiked some of the subsequent responses. It should be obvious to even the most jaded reader that me saying “Your touchdowns should be like you had a gallon of liquid nitroglycerine on the passenger seat” does not mean that I’m in the habit of carrying TNT in my aircraft.

Some things are taught during training for expediency/simplicity/whatever that can be left behind as you mature as a pilot. Side slipping all the way down final is one of them.

PS You think learning to crab/side slip is hard? Try having to land with crab on and having to resist the temptation to lower a wing and feed in rudder! It takes several landings before the temptation subsides...

John

[Chuck Ellsworth]

PS You think learning to crab/side slip is hard? Try having to land with crab on and having to resist the temptation to lower a wing and feed in rudder! It takes several landings before the temptation subsides...

The DC3 with x/wind gear was interesting to land and for sure it was weird touching down crabbed into wind with the wings level and no crosswind control inputs.....in fact I never really did get comfortable with the thing.

if you can smoothly coordinate the controls to go into a sideslip turning base because you’re high, you can smoothly coordinate the controls coming out of a crab on short final (or closer) to align the aircraft with the runway and land. It just needs practice.

As long as you are tracking straight down the runway center line the closer to touch down you kick out the crab the easier it is because inertia keeps the airplane moving parallel to the runway heading.

[photofly]

There's a whole lot of implied stuff in there that every student should fly like they're in an airliner, because that's what a 'pro' does.

There's really nothing here that I implied. I'm afraid you read way to much into it. If you insist that my comment implies some kind of 'disrespect' for anyone who doesn't fly an airliner (and your 'taking exception' to my post ultimately sounds like that), then that is very shortsighted of you.
...

Actually your original post implies a total absence of awareness of anyone "professional" who flies anything other than an airliner. Whether that's an accurate reflection of your state of mind or not, it's not possible to discern.

Regardless of that, and for reasons stated, "like you have 200 people behind you" is absolutely terrible motivation for someone in any kind of aircraft that doesn't have 200 seats, and particularly for someone learning to fly a basic trainer.

I get that you don't like that I said it was silly and stupid advice. That doesn't mean it's not silly and stupid advice. It also doesn't mean that everything (or even anything) else you say is silly or stupid, or that you are silly and/or stupid. I also didn't shoot your dog, screw your girlfriend, or repossess your truck.

FInally if, on reflection, you still believe it's great advice, just think about how wonderful the internet is as a place where two people of good intent can simply agree to disagree with each other.

[PilotDAR]

just think about how wonderful the internet is as a place where two people of good intent can simply agree to disagree with each other.

Ah, excellent, good reassurance that I am entitled to disagree with posts which are derogatory.

Criticize the idea, not the person. In my opinion "silly" and "stupid" are terms which are really difficult to distinguish as being a reference to the post rather than the poster. I occasionally think "silly" and "stupid" about some posts, though I don't think that I have ever typed it. If I ever have to, I should probably give up posting, because I have surrendered my personal standards of conduct.

In my opinion, the post which triggered these terms was reasonable, and not troubling. It may fairly be someone else's "normal", and what's wrong with that, as long as the outcome is a properly flown aircraft?

If being critical of a person imagining flying something bigger to inspire them to do their best is difficult to accept, perhaps I can raise the issue of the frequent use of mnemonic, instead of properly learning and using a checklist.

It must create a poor image for those visitors here, who might test the waters to join us in aviation, to read experienced pilots sparring with each other over such petty points. Surly we can present better in a public forum......

[Canoehead]

It must create a poor image for those visitors here, who might test the waters to join us in aviation, to read experienced pilots sparring with each other over such petty points. Surly we can present better in a public forum......

Quite right PilotDAR. I made several attempts at responding to photofly's last post but realized that I wasn't 'bettering the cause', so I'm done with it.
He gets the satisfaction of the last word.

[photofly]

Lol. I actually wrote a reply, posted it, then deleted it. Let's argue about something more important, and another time.

[Shiny Side Up]

Surly we can present better in a public forum......

I dunno, avcanada is actually a pretty accurate representation of pilots. Good, bad and ugly. It would probably turn out the same if you turned us all loose in a room with one another, I mean I've seen flying club meetings and fly ins to see that as a group in person we (pilots) can be both a bunch of helpful, selfish, selfless, rude, considerate, thoughtful, and above all, pig-headed bunch. On par with the rest of the population.

I will say though that occasionally a source of disagreement is that some here forget that all sort of pilots are welcome here, rather than just representatives of what they themselves do.

And don't call me Shirley.

[iflyforpie]

Quite right PilotDAR. I made several attempts at responding to photofly's last post but realized that I wasn't 'bettering the cause', so I'm done with it.
He gets the satisfaction of the last word.

Lol. I actually wrote a reply, posted it, then deleted it. Let's argue about something more important, and another time.

YESSSS!

And don't call me Shirley.

Actually....... he said 'surly'.

[pelmet]

.

[trey kule]

I can say with absolute certainty that my claim was correct.
There are some larger aircraft out there that are designed to be landed in a crosswind with yaw.. The B52 is the poster child of crosswind gear with its "active" system....it is actually adjusted from the cockpit. Then we can get into the design considerations of the larger aircraft that allow the main gear (wheels) to straighten out if there is a bit of a yaw...bit being the operative word . these are not single Cessna type wheels, but several wheels attached to the aircraft structure by a vertical member which has a mechanism to allow it to adjust a bit
Then of course, there is the crosswind gear (passive) on some conventional gear aircraft.

Not sure why you would need to caution me with regard to making such a claim....came from real experience, not google.

[LousyFisherman]

Good morning L.F. :
It is not my intention to denigrate you or your methods of landing, I was only giving my opinion of how I teach flying.
Snip....
P.M. me and I will give you my phone number and if you wish I will explain on the phone how I teach these lessons....
......I won't even charge you.

No worries, ., I didn't take it that away.
I'm still aiming to get my float ticket this fall. A lady friend has just moved to Naniamo so the incentives are building for a visit.

This is my thought on this subject too. With more of a gusty wind, I'm more likely to start slipping sooner to get a feel for the gust component. Taildraggers and anything that approaches slow and/or doesn't have a lot of mass (and especially the combination) it tends to work better. But then I'm not a very good pilot so YMMV.

I think the C150 qualifies . And I meet the pilot qualifications
LF

[pelmet]

I can say with absolute certainty that my claim was correct.
There are some larger aircraft out there that are designed to be landed in a crosswind with yaw.. The B52 is the poster child of crosswind gear with its "active" system....it is actually adjusted from the cockpit. Then we can get into the design considerations of the larger aircraft that allow the main gear (wheels) to straighten out if there is a bit of a yaw...bit being the operative word . these are not single Cessna type wheels, but several wheels attached to the aircraft structure by a vertical member which has a mechanism to allow it to adjust a bit

Edited

This is true, the B-52 has landing gear that was designed for crosswind landings. Not sure what the max limit is.

[Schooner69A]

Regardless of that, and for reasons stated, "like you have 200 people behind you" is absolutely terrible motivation for someone in any kind of aircraft that doesn't have 200 seats, and particularly for someone learning to fly a basic trainer.

"Like you have 200 people behind you" is in the same league as "Like you have liquid nitro on board", "Like the cabin is full of eggs", "Like you have your mother on board". The operative word is "like". So... For someone learning to fly a Cessna 152, a Tomahawk, or any of the new trainers on the block, the exhortation to strive for smoothness and finesse is not bad motivation. On the contrary, it sets the tone that will stay with someone throughout their career. Smoothness, finesse, accuracy; whether VFR in the circuit, IFR at FL 250, or #3 in a nine-plane formation, all good attributes for which to strive. Worked for me.

[trey kule]

Take a look at the B52. As I mentioned in my edited post , it is the poster child
Should you want a more current example ask someone with access to the 747 AFM.
I was speaking from experience, and felt your caution out of line. If you don't want to accept my claim don't. I am OK with that.

You keep mentioning your experience on jets. what types have you flown?

[pelmet]

Take a look at the B52. As I mentioned in my edited post , it is the poster child

Good point. I edited as well. It is true that a B-52 has special gear designed to land in a crosswind. Apparently there is some sort of knob/rotary wheel on the pedestal to adjust the gear legs parallel to the runway. And actually, some Cessna 195's as well from what I have read but I think those gear are aligned at touchdown and then somehow swivel upon contact. Perhaps the rare C-195 pilot can confirm how it works.

Here is a B-52 crosswind landing. It must feel strange on the rollout the first few times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCUHQ_-l6Qg

[Colonel Sanders]

some Cessna 195's as well

An acquaintance - can't remember his name for the life
of me - that I've met year after year at the Geneseo
Airshow - I think he knows Rick Volker - has a C195
with serviceable cross-wind gear installed!

He said it was a little weird, but that the gear actually
worked very well, and from his research had historically
kept a lot of 195's from being wrecked.

I can't imagine it's very easy to get parts for it, or to
find someone who knows how to work on it.