WPPA.ca

[7thirtyseven]

The SWA pilots formed a union many,many years ago. Did it destroy the company? Hardly. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite. And unless I am mistaken almost every other airline pilot in Canada is unionized albeit under a myriad of different representational banners.

Some of you union haters need to get over yourselves. The apocalypse is not coming. Structure and rules and democracy and fairness are not bad things. The union will be what you make it. If it is populated by backwards thinking neanderthals then you can imagine the result. If it is instead populated by your best and brightest thinkers, then you will find that it may become a source of vitality and ideas in a very turbulent industry.

It will be what you make it. And if the concept of one man = one vote bothers you, then you have bigger problems than the union drive debate.

Had to quote this, just because its the smartest post in this thread. Thank you.

[Optimus Prime]

Lets see if facts have any relevance anymore. Not holding my breath for SOME of you that choose the path of ignorance. I am more certain everyday that isn't a majority by any stretch though. Most pilots at WestJet are very sensible & logical once provided with the facts, they will be able to see the need to change the representation system, BUT there is a gestapo of those who spread ignorance, lies and even defamation, hard at work and everyone knows it. They are the ones brow-beating and creating a constant low level anxiety and fear in our group. So, I think you have that backwards my friend. I am sure even the mention of support of something so evil as internal certification would result in a quick trip to the Chief Pilot's office or maybe even the CEO's? Even though that would be illegal, under those pesky Labour Laws, I am sure that's okee dokee by you, eh? And, that pilot would be all on their own to fight it afterwards. Because… there is no representation!

Oh yes, certification will make "the company falter", just like at has at SouthWest! All the senior pilots just want the company to fail, yup! you got it pegged man!
You're kinda proving my point, aren't you?

From listening to the current TA & anti-certification rhetoric, logic is clearly in short supply now. Spin, spin, even out right lying from a fake representation system in the Company's back pocket and guys like you think the alternative, which all WestJet pilots can build, from scratch, is the boogeyman. Wow! Pretty clear where the arrogance is.

The WPPA is about the Constitution and using the appropriate laws of Canada to provide basic rights to the pilots at WestJet. Something they DO NOT HAVE NOW. Nor can ever achieve under a Company UNION like PACT (and it's little subcommittee the WJPA). No, it cannot stop traditional airline managers, like we have now, from repeating the same mistakes which cause problems for an airline down the road but SERIOUSLY, you think PACT/WJPA can? If they give away the farm like this when we are doing well, I can't imagine how far they'd bend if there even was one bad quarter? If you think the employees, let alone the pilots have anything to do with why airlines go broke then you truly don't understand a thing about this industry!

Your conjecture or speculation about "motives" is typical WestJet protocol of "attack the messenger when you cannot fight the truth". They train PACT Reps to do this.
Reality is, WPPA is not run by anyone right now, beyond what is required to meet the Code. Why don't you run for election in it when certification happens? Unless, you're not allowed because you are a manager?(or soon will be by publicly sucking up sufficiently) Then you can be sure none of those fabled "bitter" guys don't blow up YOUR Company. (Most guys who seem to think they have the licence on Teal seem to think it's THIER Company and anyone who disagrees with them should leave. Now officially stated in annual ground training as the "Get off the bus" speech, talk about the epitome of arrogance!)

Oh, are we just forgetting that you called the WestJet pilot group "ignorant/stupid"? That huge reply without one apology or explanation. Nothing but a weird Bond Villainy response meant to scare us ignorant stupids into signing cards.

I'm confused, you've convinced me to sign a card based on conspiracy theories and back-room deals, so I went to your website. But it looks like a website that "they" would want me to sign. What do I do now? Please tell me! I'm so helpless and dumb!

I wouldn't be concerned about this whole thing if the guys pushing so hard for it weren't so condescending and arrogant, with such obvious disrespect for the intelligence of the people they claim they're trying to protect.

[Bede]

Guys,

Wrong forum. Go to WJPA or WPPA forum to fight this one out.

[JSYK]

Sage advice Bede.
I'm done here and you are right.
Frustrated responses on my part during frustrating times. I stand behind the facts though but I would much rather see the debate on home turf too.

peace

[jjj]

"I disregarded the part about no personal attacks. I shall take a week off to think about it."

paraphrasing by Sulako

[Impact]

What's interesting as well, is the lack of the word "union" by the WPPA promoters. Why is that?

Sure, yup, thats the reason… whatever makes you feel good man….

Hung up on a word on which you obviously do not understand?

How come WJPA lacks the word "union"?

How come ACPA lacks the word "union"?

How come ALPA lacks the word "union"?

How come the word "union" is so important but the reality of anything isn't to some of you? I guess that kook-aid is a true narcotic after all.

Don't worry "Impact"(In PACT?), withdrawal might be painful but eventually you'll recover.

Ignorance/stupidity reflected in this type of comment above(it's obviously not a genuine question), illustrates the many difficult obstacles WJ pilots face in the pursuit for basic representation.
(edited upon reflection that it may be mis-interpreted by some. Sorry if it offended anyone. )

Now now. Is that any way to address a prospective union "brother" or "sister"? No worries, I had the opportunity to see how aggressive and insulting your post was before you editted it.

You still haven't answered my very simple and basic question. Why is that? I thought I'd afford you the opportunity to answer that before we get into another topic of discussion: The lack of WPPA "transparency".

[Impact]

Guys,

Wrong forum. Go to WJPA or WPPA forum to fight this one out.

I do hear what you're saying Bede, however the now pro-union (formerly just a faction of disgruntled whiners) element has pushed most reasonable thinking people off of the WJPA forum. Intimidation, inuendo, insults, and mild forms of swarming is what a pilot with traditional WJ views will face when making a comment. There's a reason why the vast majority of pilots don't participate in that toxic environment. And no, I'm not going to go onto the WPPA forum. I can only imagine what that is like.

I will now ask you this. What other venue is there to express my views (the traditional views that have existed at WJ since it's inception) without being insulted and denigrated? We've already seen the depths to which JSYK will go to try and dominate over my personal opinion.

[yycflyguy]

Have the pilots at Westjet considered a megapilot union including Air Canada, Jazz and Transat pilots? I don't mean ALPA or ACPA. I mean a new entity that was nationwide inclusive. The College is not going to provide that. Not only would that curtail internal whipsawing between the connectors and mainline but also the continued degradation of the industry WAWCON.

[7thirtyseven]

Guys,

Wrong forum. Go to WJPA or WPPA forum to fight this one out.

I do hear what you're saying Bede, however the now pro-union (formerly just a faction of disgruntled whiners) element has pushed most reasonable thinking people off of the WJPA forum. Intimidation, inuendo, insults, and mild forms of swarming is what a pilot with traditional WJ views will face when making a comment. There's a reason why the vast majority of pilots don't participate in that toxic environment. And no, I'm not going to go onto the WPPA forum. I can only imagine what that is like.

I will now ask you this. What other venue is there to express my views (the traditional views that have existed at WJ since it's inception) without being insulted and denigrated? We've already seen the depths to which JSYK will go to try and dominate over my personal opinion.

I believe you seriously misrepresent the WJPA website. It is extremely civil. If you place your views up for your peers ypu may or may not be asked to back them up. That is how forums work.
Some of your peers are extremely analytical, some have no personality some run on emotion but all are passionate about WestJet.

Tradition is only as good as its current relevance, and "WestJet values" are only as strong as peoples willingness to represent them. Why would you run away from a website that represents your fellow pilots so easily?

[scopiton]

Have the pilots at Westjet considered a megapilot union including Air Canada, Jazz and Transat pilots? I don't mean ALPA or ACPA. I mean a new entity that was nationwide inclusive. The College is not going to provide that. Not only would that curtail internal whipsawing between the connectors and mainline but also the continued degradation of the industry WAWCON.

is ACPA thinking about it ?

[jjj]

Sulako, I shall rephrase then.

The WPPA is for some a shiny new concept for WS that boasts to respect the same core values that has brought WestJet to where it is today.

For others it is a thinly veiled attempt to protect the lowest common denominator. While the rest of us work hard the weaker links will drag us down and hide behind clause and loophole. Gone will be the days when you can call someone out for their abuse of the system when they can conveniently hide behind a complex set of rules.

WS is the working man's airline. We put in hard time with no credit system in the traditional sense and we go above and beyond in extra duties on a daily basis. The people that work hard and put in the effort are very well paid and are leaders by example.

Thankfully our workforce has few bad apples that work the system. Despite any good intentions, anything the WPPA will come up with will only foster an environment for others to become bad apples. It is a consequence of the nature of the certified bargaining unit to what we have now.

JJJ

[7thirtyseven]

Jjj I have many many friends at AC, Jazz, Canjet, transat etc. They are hardworking company folk. They dont take advantage of every loophole. They want their company to be somthing they are proud of. You Gotta come up with an anti union arguement that resembles reality.

[Bede]

Impact, I hear what you're saying. I'm on the fence about the TA and have posted some material that may make people skeptical about information presented. On the other hand I recently made, in my opinion, a very strong argument against unionization. It's on the WJPA forum "How did we get here". I have not had my position attacked, but a few have disagreed with me.

Can a union work at WJ? Yes perhaps. Do WestJet pilots need a union because of a marginal TA? Unequivocally no.

[jjj]

737,

Not all Jazz guys at Jazz/Canjet etc. are bad apples - certainly not.

However at a place like Jazz, it is common place with respect to sick days that you must use them or lose them. At WS it is commonplace to take a sick day when you are sick. That is the kind if thing that will change once we go down the path if certification.

I have more arguments against cert - the above was only a snapshot. It was also a rephrasing of a previous post that I made above that which was nuked by a mod, hence the narrow scope.

JJJ

[privateer]

Last I checked a union did jack s*** for the Transat pilots and oscillating layoffs, and did absolutely nothing for the pilots at Canjet when the company brought in TFW's.

[Rem]

I for one would like to thank JSYK for reminding me how much my life sucks. I really and truly had no idea. I was too busy flying great equipment with great people on a good schedule for great pay.

[7thirtyseven]

737,

Not all Jazz guys at Jazz/Canjet etc. are bad apples - certainly not.

However at a place like Jazz, it is common place with respect to sick days that you must use them or lose them. At WS it is commonplace to take a sick day when you are sick. That is the kind if thing that will change once we go down the path if certification.

I have more arguments against cert - the above was only a snapshot. It was also a rephrasing of a previous post that I made above that which was nuked by a mod, hence the narrow scope.

JJJ

Right on, see I would attribute something like sick days to low moral and a sked system that places some of the group in a situation of perpetually bad skeds.

[7thirtyseven]

I for one would like to thank JSYK for reminding me how much my life sucks. I really and truly had no idea. I was too busy flying great equipment with great people on a good schedule for great pay.

You are a piece of work my friend.

[yycflyguy]

Have the pilots at Westjet considered a megapilot union including Air Canada, Jazz and Transat pilots? I don't mean ALPA or ACPA. I mean a new entity that was nationwide inclusive. The College is not going to provide that. Not only would that curtail internal whipsawing between the connectors and mainline but also the continued degradation of the industry WAWCON.

is ACPA thinking about it ?

Yes.

[privateer]

Again, unions have done fat squat for pilots in Canada.
Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots, Winter 2013-2014
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=90994

[flyer 1492]

737,

Not all Jazz guys at Jazz/Canjet etc. are bad apples - certainly not.

However at a place like Jazz, it is common place with respect to sick days that you must use them or lose them. At WS it is commonplace to take a sick day when you are sick. That is the kind if thing that will change once we go down the path if certification.

JJJ

JJJ,
I am sure WJ has a few bad apples just like everyone else. Just to set the record straight, at Jazz you don't lose your sick days if you don't use them. Every pilot on January 1 has 85 credit hours deposited into their sick bank. Every time you book off you deduct the credit for the day from your bank, if you don't use them in one year you can carry a max of 170 credit hours in your bank. The time is there if you are sick. So don't go spreading false rumours.

Flyer 1492

[Optimus Prime]

Sage advice Bede.
I'm done here and you are right.
Frustrated responses on my part during frustrating times. I stand behind the facts though but I would much rather see the debate on home turf too.

peace

I see you've taken the opportunity given. Live to fight another day right? Though, not before editing the offending post I see. It's a lot nicer. But when you said, "sorry if I offended anyone", I think you meant, "sorry that I offended everyone". If anyone wants to see what prompted me out of hibernation, and/or what your WPPA executives' true opinion of us is, the original sentence is quoted on page three, second post from the bottom.

Bede's right, this isn't the place for this discussion. But, unfortunately it's here. I'll be damned if I'm going to let these guys go unchecked.

[Go Guns]

I for one would like to thank JSYK for reminding me how much my life sucks. I really and truly had no idea. I was too busy flying great equipment with great people on a good schedule for great pay.

+1

I'll be damned if I'm going to let these guys go unchecked.

+1

[flyer 1492]

It is interesting to watch the debate between the two sides, reminds me of when CALPA was trying to organize at Time Air. There were the same arguments coming from the naysayers " if the association has enough support, then the company is finished" etc... Guess what Time Air didn't fold, but prospered, the pilots did want the company to succeed not fail. With an association you have a contract that is negotiated by the pilots for the pilots. The contract that is negotiated and ratified by the pilot's is legal and binding on both sides. Like I said at the beginning it should be an interesting debate...

[flyer 1492]

Have the pilots at Westjet considered a megapilot union including Air Canada, Jazz and Transat pilots? I don't mean ALPA or ACPA. I mean a new entity that was nationwide inclusive. The College is not going to provide that. Not only would that curtail internal whipsawing between the connectors and mainline but also the continued degradation of the industry WAWCON.

is ACPA thinking about it ?

Yes.

We did have a national union it was called CALPA, until the pilots at Air Canada didn't like the Picher award and left.

Flyer 1492