49 Ship formation fly-by

[Shiny Side Up]

Ever heard of a Sabre? Ever seen a second seat in one?

Yes, Yes I have.



Carry on.

[Colonel Sanders]

Small detail ... of which the RCAF had precisely ZERO.
NA tried to sell the two-seat Sabre worldwide, but it
was too little, too late. TTM lesson. Only a couple
were ever made. I doubt there is anyone here that
has ever seen one in person.

In the RCAF in the 1950's, pilots learned to fly the
Harvard (T-6) advanced trainer, then they transitioned
to jets in the two-seat T-33, which was a dual P-80.

After learning to fly a jet, their very first flight in the
F-86 was solo. For every RCAF pilot that ever flew
the Sword. Careless and reckless by today's standards,
I know.

There's a bunch of guys in Ottawa with a Mark 5.5 Sabre
which of course is single seat. Every first flight in it for
every pilot, is solo. Why don't you guys attack them for
not getting dual, like a good little airline pilot? You can take
a great big chunk out of Chris Hadfield's @ss - he's one
of those Very Bad Men (tm) that fly the Sabre

[Schooner69A]

F-86: First Solo;

And there was more than one tyro pilot at Chatham who went through five hundred feet AGL with the gear and flaps still in their take-off positions! The difference in thrust between the Sabre 5 and the T-33 was just enough to put one a tad behind the aircraft to a few minutes. (Never happened to me, of course, because I had my "Sydney Smoothhand" gloves on.) The following hour would be a glorious one as the majority of the inexperienced pilot put the aircraft through it's paces emulating all the fighter pilots who had preceded him. However, after sixty minutes of fun came the realization that the machine had to be returned to terra firma and the sudden awareness that there was no real cockpit reference with which to judge the landing attitude. From either seat, the T-33 had that long nose with which to make angular comparisons with the runway; on the other hand, the Sabre's wings were behind you and the nose ended at the gunsight, two feet in front of you. Fortunately, the F-86 was a forgiving beast and there were few aircraft that didn't make it to the ground in one piece.

On another note. Sabre formation flights used the same techniques as taught on the Silverstar, but a bit more finesse was expected; especially upon returning from an air-to-ground mission over "The ." when the wingmen would hear: "Hotshot formation: Finger left/right; nobody goes lower than the lead" and three ab initio pilots would find themselves below 100' ASL at 350 knots. Heady stuff for lads off the farm! An unconfirmed story is related by a course member who swears he saw a lobster pot go over the lead's wing as they overflew a boat so engaged...

[Shiny Side Up]

Small detail ... of which the RCAF had precisely ZERO.
NA tried to sell the two-seat Sabre worldwide, but it
was too little, too late. TTM lesson. Only a couple
were ever made. I doubt there is anyone here that
has ever seen one in person.

Especially since the last one they made was scrapped in '56. Really too bad, the things you could do with a two seat sabre... I guess one just has to settle for a two seat MiG-15. Wierd to think the Sovs were more forward thinking. Maybe they had a time machine and knew people were going to be wanting to fly these things sixty years after they were made.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Schooner

Just out of curiosity what preparation did a new pilot coming out of the T 33 get before they let him strap on a F 86 ?

[AuxBatOn]

CS, you are confusing ab initio training with advanced training. Not too many people fly their first form trip ever solo. In subsequent aircraft however, it's entirely possible and safe to do so. Same with flying a single seat fighter. After your 300th hour in a high perf aircraft, it's pretty much the same, save a couple of switches.

The point is that good initial training will make you safe and effective. 10 000 hours doing the same thing over will make you good.

You do not need a gazilion hours to be safe, effective and competent at something, as you are suggesting.

[Colonel Sanders]

You do not need a gazilion hours to be safe, effective and competent at something

I am disappointed that you are implying that
being minimally qualified is going to keep you
alive when something goes wrong in form.

You know that things don't always go as planned,
and unless you've got something left over, it
very well may be time to die.

And the more proficient at it you are, the more
you have "left over". Perhaps you are implying that
SA is not important in a wing See your hero
Robin Olds biography, "Fighter Pilot", page 170.

The other thing you are implying is that form skills
are not perishable. I salute you, sir - you are the
only human being in the history of the world that
does not need to practice formation to remain
proficiency.

The rest of us mortals need to continually practice
form to be good (and safe) at it. Thus it is arithmetically
impossible to NOT accrue considerable time flying form,
if you do it for enough years in a safe manner.

I realize the RCAF has severe budget cuts. We are
down to two squadrons of F-18's that are all older
than you are. And they are due to be replaced with
a tiny number of hideously expensive aircraft which
will not allow pilots to fly enough to develop proficiency.

I get your religion. But I'm not going to drink your Kool-aid.

[AuxBatOn]

You are an expert at making people say what they don't actually say.

I didn't said you didn't need hours to maintain proficiency. I said you don't need a gazilion hours to be deemed safe and effective, but rather, a solid foundation built upon quality training. Flying formation is not rocket science. The brief, especially the contingencies part of it, is what will for the most part keep the formation safe. What happens if -38 of the 49-ship has an engine failure? What are everybodies escape routes? It has nothing to do with how precicely (to a point) you can maintain your position. The rest is basic formation flying skills.

I hate to break it to you but you and your gang are not thr only people in Canada that can safely and effectively fly formation.

[Colonel Sanders]

Sigh. Genitalia and elitism again. Like a broken record.

[AuxBatOn]

Sigh. Genitalia and elitism again. Like a broken record.

Are you talking about you posting a video of yourself every second post?

[Colonel Sanders]

You're right. Egalitarianism is the most important
thing in formation, IFR and low-altitude aerobatics.

For a change, I will post a picture of RCAF formation:

[Schooner69A]

"...before they let him strap on a F 86 ?"

BPF: in addition to the usual ground school subjects, there were approximately seven simulator/procedures trainer sessions then a blind-fold cockpit touch test before you were thrown out of the nest. After hours, students would go down to their hangar, find an aircraft, and run through various procedures, both routine and emergency. One of my classmates was running through the "Engine Failure After Take-off Drill" which read in part "Drop Tanks - Release" which would get rid of some 800 pounds of fuel. This was accomplished by pushing a button on the instrument panel that was situated in a protective little red "silo" and covered with paper. My friend realized that on take-off his harness would be locked and he wondered if he would be able to reach the button. So... (You know where this is going, don't you?) So... He locked his harness and then reached for the "Drop Tanks" button. His finger punctured the paper and depressed the button. The aircraft was instantly relieved of 800 pounds of fuel and tanks leaving my friend sitting in a slowly widening pool of JP4. The alarm was raised and the next morning, we had a new rule: no students allowed in the hangars after hours.

On the day of the first trip, an instructor crouched on the wing and watched you as you started the engine. You were naturally a bit apprehensive and slow (not wanting to make any mistakes and blow an engine) In the summertime, this was not a problem; however, in the winter, many a slow-moving student has had his hands batted out of the way as the instructor leaned into the cockpit, placed the battery switch on, selected the start switch to "Start", got the engine cranking, (switch then to "Run"), reached over and threw the throttle around the "horn" at the appropriate percent, slapped you on the shoulder, shouted "Have a great trip", jumped off the wing and headed for the warmth of the hangar.

In those days, nobody stayed around to do "Finger Checks" and all that; as soon as you indicated "Diconnect APU", the tech did just that and headed for the next start. There were not many checks to accomplish: speed brakes in, flaps to take-off, check controls in normal and alternate hydraulics, set trims, close the canopy, temps and pressures. Many a student has hesitated short of the runway thinking that there must be more to do and has had the tower break into his reverie: "You ready to go?". And off you would go on the first trip of a three or four year assignment on one of the finest aircraft ever built.


John

[Beefitarian]

That's more like it. Thank you Schooner. My only F-86 story was telling a guy at work that Airspray was selling one. He said, "That would cost $5000/hour for fuel." I said no it wouldn't. Went home and calculated it would cost around 3.

[Colonel Sanders]

The hairy-chested bunch will get their knickers in a twist about this, but ...

Jets are actually pretty easy to fly. A C421 demands far more of it's
pilot than an L39.

One of the most challenging things about a jet is simply starting it -
without melting it down. If you can do that, and you can remember
to latch the canopy - those of us with thousands of hours in Pitts
generally don't have a problem with that - and set the flaps and
speed brakes and trim, well, off you go.

The next challenging thing about jets - and this is HUGE - is controlling
the airspeed on final. Like any other airplane, a good landing starts
with a good approach, so unless you're Bob Hoover, fly the approach
by the numbers so you end up on final in the right configuration at the
right speed in the right place.

Now you must learn to control the speed on final. The guy that crashed
the T-33 short of the 10,000 foot long runway at Hamilton last year
can speak up any time now.

Controlling the airspeed on final is probably the biggest challenge a piston
prop guy faces when he first flies a jet. The lag of the control loop can
easily suck him into overcontrolling the throttle. However, once the light
bulb goes on, it's not hard. If you can set the temperature of the water
in the shower, you can control the airspeed of a jet on final.

Like any other airplane, you don't want to be a throttle jockey. A well-flown
approach does not have you touching the throttle until just before touchdown,
in ANY aircraft. I don't care if it's a Pitts or 421 or L39 or 747.

Some people complain that a jet is "fast" and they have trouble keeping
up with it. I honestly don't have a clue what they are talking about. I
get really bored in airplanes, and even 400 knots seems slow.

[Colonel Sanders]

re: Sabre training

simulator/procedures trainer sessions

Pop quiz time: why was there never an initial "small tail"
and then a later "big tail" version of the F-86, like so many
other early jets?

Softball question: list the jets that were built with small tail
and big tail versions, and explain why.

[Big Pistons Forever]

"...before they let him strap on a F 86 ?"

BPF: in addition to the usual ground school subjects, there were approximately seven simulator/procedures trainer sessions then a blind-fold cockpit touch test before you were thrown out of the nest. After hours, students would go down to their hangar, find an aircraft, and run through various procedures, both routine and emergency. One of my classmates was running through the "Engine Failure After Take-off Drill" which read in part "Drop Tanks - Release" which would get rid of some 800 pounds of fuel. This was accomplished by pushing a button on the instrument panel that was situated in a protective little red "silo" and covered with paper. My friend realized that on take-off his harness would be locked and he wondered if he would be able to reach the button. So... (You know where this is going, don't you?) So... He locked his harness and then reached for the "Drop Tanks" button. His finger punctured the paper and depressed the button. The aircraft was instantly relieved of 800 pounds of fuel and tanks leaving my friend sitting in a slowly widening pool of JP4. The alarm was raised and the next morning, we had a new rule: no students allowed in the hangars after hours.

On the day of the first trip, an instructor crouched on the wing and watched you as you started the engine. You were naturally a bit apprehensive and slow (not wanting to make any mistakes and blow an engine) In the summertime, this was not a problem; however, in the winter, many a slow-moving student has had his hands batted out of the way as the instructor leaned into the cockpit, placed the battery switch on, selected the start switch to "Start", got the engine cranking, (switch then to "Run"), reached over and threw the throttle around the "horn" at the appropriate percent, slapped you on the shoulder, shouted "Have a great trip", jumped off the wing and headed for the warmth of the hangar.

In those days, nobody stayed around to do "Finger Checks" and all that; as soon as you indicated "Diconnect APU", the tech did just that and headed for the next start. There were not many checks to accomplish: speed brakes in, flaps to take-off, check controls in normal and alternate hydraulics, set trims, close the canopy, temps and pressures. Many a student has hesitated short of the runway thinking that there must be more to do and has had the tower break into his reverie: "You ready to go?". And off you would go on the first trip of a three or four year assignment on one of the finest aircraft ever built.


John

Thanks. My guess is a lot of young men had the time of their life in the F 86 era RCAF.

[trampbike]

You do not need a gazilion hours to be safe, effective and competent at something

I am disappointed that you are implying that
being minimally qualified is going to keep you
alive when something goes wrong in form.

He did not imply this. He pointed out that a solid foundation might be even more important than many many hours. That doesn't mean many hours isn't important. We all know that Yeager and Hoover always said they were good because they were the ones that flew the most.

And they are due to be replaced with
a tiny number of hideously expensive aircraft which
will not allow pilots to fly enough to develop proficiency.

Hypothetically: In a decade or two, that hideous aircraft becomes the most efficient ground attack and A-A fighter of it's time. LET'S PRETEND this scenario becomes real, will you be able to admit you've been talking out of you a$$ all that time when it comes to the F35?

Sigh. Genitalia and elitism again. Like a broken record.

Are you talking about you posting a video of yourself every second post?

You've got to admit he's been controlling himself for the last couple of posts.

[Colonel Sanders]

Ok, you got the elitism attack in there. Now you
need to start talking about your genitalia and the
formula will be complete.

Remember, aviation is all about egalitarianism.

re: F-35. Hope you like the sim. You're going to
spend your career in it.

[Schooner69A]

Tail Size:

That's a good question. Are we talking about horizontal stabilizer, vertical stabilizer, elevator, or the whole shebang? I must admit that tail size and its effects is something upon which I have not pondered overmuch... However, I did find this website (http://adg.stanford.edu/aa241/stability/taildesign.html) that talks about tail design and as reading it made my head hurt, I figured that the answer must be buried deep within it somewhere.

Now, during transition training onto the F-86, not much was made of the aerodynamics of swept wing plan forms; the theory behind sweeping was covered (and confused most of us at the time) and we we told not to get too slow on approach. I think that if many of us had seen the famed "Dance of Death" (http://www.historynet.com/deadly-sabre-dance.htm), I think there may have been a few requests for transfer to Transport Command flying straight wing North Stars or something equally as staid. (;>0) However, the tigers amongst us would have adopted the "Never happen, GI" attitude and got on with the job.

Now, formation flying was "de rigeur" in the fighter squadrons. A two-ship flight involved a formation take-off; a four-ship flight involved a formation take-off with the second element taking a one to three second delay on the roll. (Half second if you were a tiger, three if you were a "pussy")

Four plane IFR departures were handled as a section if join-up could be effected before going IMC; if not, the second element took up a heading ten degrees from the lead and joined up on top. Descents were the same; if the weather was less than VFR, the elements went down individually. If VFR underneath, the section descended together and would execute an overhead break.

Most Sabre pilots were excellent formation pilots, but not aerobatic formation pilots. Anyone (well, almost anyone) can be taught to safely do basic formation manoeuvers including turns up to - say - thirty degrees of bank. Formation aerobatics is another kettle of fish... That takes dedicated training. However, it's too bad the The Colonel's operation isn't closer: I'd love to go up on his wing in one of the Pitts for some formation aerobatics: I can probably still stick-handle my way through a loop and a roll without too much embarrassment. However, it would have to be in a two-seat so someone else could attend to the departure and arrival phase: without a trip or two of transition training, I'd probably run the squirrelly little bugger off into the weeds! And it's hard to pontificate on AVCANADA with THAT on your rap sheet!

Time for lunch.

John

[Colonel Sanders]

Off the top of my head, I know that the initial "small tail"
versions of the F-100, MiG-21 and B707 had serious
problems which were corrected with a larger vertical fin.

I am sure there are many others. But not the F-86, and
for a very good reason, despite the fact that it was a very
early design.

This is the sort of engineering information that I, being a
simple stick & rudder guy like . Yeager, am completely
ignorant about.

It's too bad that I didn't study complex analysis, partial
differential equations, Kalman filters, deterministic and
non-deterministic control theory and filtering and estimation,
when I was getting my Mathematics & Engineering degree
at Queen's University.

http://www.mast.queensu.ca/meng/

[Schooner69A]

...Mathematics & Engineering degree at Queen's University...

I envy people who had the opportunity to seek higher education. Getting kicked out of high school a few weeks before graduation for downing two bottles of "bridge" at the year-end athletic meet kind of puts a damper on future endeavours! However, the Cold War was a-brewin' and my Grade XI marks made me some kind of a wizard, and, after a year and a half, I'm in Europe, single, given access to ten cent beer, and loaned an airplane with which to cavort several times a week. I even learned to like schnecken, which, if I'd known the english translation, would have made me buy a barge pole!

Back to tail, and the lack thereof: I take it that there were directional problems with the aircraft so mentioned?

John

[Colonel Sanders]

Getting kicked out of high school

I feel your pain. I was expelled from my first high school,
too. Had to establish residence and prove independent
income in different county to attend different high school
to graduate. What a paperwork headache.

However, the joke is on the expellers, most of whom died
of lung cancer. Turns out my old high school was full of
asbestos. Had to be torn down by guys in space suits. I
really regret not being able to spend more time there

tail, and the lack thereof

Yup. See Tex Johnston's biography. The problem was so
bad in the small-tailed B707, riding along as a pax in the
back of an airliner one day, he had to run forward and take
control from the guys in front, to recover from the coupled
oscillation.

The Human Trash really hammered him for that one. He
went to the wall on the large tail, which cost the company
money, and eventually, him his job. The paper pushers got
their revenge for his being right, and sticking to his position.