Sunwing is hiring seasonal pilots

[complexintentions]

The fact that the Sunwing apologists are more concerned about their memos becoming public, than actually refuting the arguments being made, speaks volumes. As they say in politics, poor optics. Looks like they have something to hide.

Sure, companies deserve a certain amount of confidentiality. But if you're going to whine about Gilles not substantiating his claims, you don't get to whine when he does.

But that seems to be the whole Sunwing/CanJet business model. To have their cake and eat it too. Employ Canadians when it suits them, and foreigners when it doesn't. Good practice for a business, not so much for the Canadians who need the jobs or the ones paying the EI for the ones displaced.

It's nonsense to state that "foreign pilots are not cheap labour to take away Canadian jobs". Of course that isn't the deliberate aim. But it's still the actual outcome.

The issue is far bigger than just aviation. It's a global labour market, has been for decades. Some will win, some will lose. The winners will of course see nothing wrong with it. The ones on the losing end will fight it.

But it IS galling to see Canadians fighting hard to defend practices that harm other Canadians, simply because it serves their own narrow self-interests.

[aerosexual]

The fact that the Sunwing apologists are more concerned about their memos becoming public, than actually refuting the arguments being made, speaks volumes. As they say in politics, poor optics. Looks like they have something to hide.

Sure, companies deserve a certain amount of confidentiality. But if you're going to whine about Gilles not substantiating his claims, you don't get to whine when he does.

But that seems to be the whole Sunwing/CanJet business model. To have their cake and eat it too. Employ Canadians when it suits them, and foreigners when it doesn't. Good practice for a business, not so much for the Canadians who need the jobs or the ones paying the EI for the ones displaced.

It's nonsense to state that "foreign pilots are not cheap labour to take away Canadian jobs". Of course that isn't the deliberate aim. But it's still the actual outcome.

The issue is far bigger than just aviation. It's a global labour market, has been for decades. Some will win, some will lose. The winners will of course see nothing wrong with it. The ones on the losing end will fight it.

But it IS galling to see Canadians fighting hard to defend practices that harm other Canadians, simply because it serves their own narrow self-interests.

Complex, perhaps you haven't been reading other posts. The problem with Gilles is that he makes very strongly opinionated statements, often riddled with inaccuracies and states them as facts. I and others have been refuting his statements by stating actual facts. These are present in this thread.

To me and to others, posting internal memos is in very poor taste and shows a lack of discretion on somebody's part. That memo didn't state anything that hasn't been said otherwise by others, including Sunwing pilots, so nothing was actually gained from doing so.

What you are really missing is that Sunwing pilots ARE fighting this practice internally and making a lot of progress with the company. If Gilles stuck to the facts and fought WITH the Sunwing pilots to continue to make progress on this front, we might actually get a lot further ahead as Canadian pilots. Unfortunately Gilles is using this political hot potato to damage the competition in the name of "saving Canadian jobs". I will repeat what I said before as well, that this is something Canjet started and continues to do on behalf of his parent company, Transat Vacations, but the focus is always on the competition - Sunwing.

[SeawingsUAE]

Interesting range of thoughts and opinions on this thread.

I admire and applaud all who are taking the time and effort to effect change in current policy, although I suspect that it is going to continue to be an uphill battle. Unfortunately individuals taking on and gaining victory over well connected corporations only happens in Disney movies.

But can those close to the source elaborate on why Sunwing will potentially take on NG Typed FO`s who meet their requirements on temporary contracts, but will not take NG Typed Captains under the same conditions?
when they clearly state they will need to take on both First Officers and Captains.

I cannot see what argument they could bring to turn down a suitably experienced Canadian Captain who would be willing to take a contract position of a fixed term, only to then fill the seat with an identically qualified and experienced foreign Captain on a validation.

[aerosexual]

Interesting range of thoughts and opinions on this thread.

I admire and applaud all who are taking the time and effort to effect change in current policy, although I suspect that it is going to continue to be an uphill battle. Unfortunately individuals taking on and gaining victory over well connected corporations only happens in Disney movies.

But can those close to the source elaborate on why Sunwing will potentially take on NG Typed FO`s who meet their requirements on temporary contracts, but will not take NG Typed Captains under the same conditions?
when they clearly state they will need to take on both First Officers and Captains.

I cannot see what argument they could bring to turn down a suitably experienced Canadian Captain who would be willing to take a contract position of a fixed term, only to then fill the seat with an identically qualified and experienced foreign Captain on a validation.

There are a couple of factors to consider. Sunwing captains go overseas on deployments, so it only makes sense that foreign captains come to Canada as well. The other factor is that Sunwing pilots through their union prefer to see internal upgrades prior to seeing external Direct Entry Captains, as long as there are F/O's qualified for the upgrade. This has worked as the number of captain upgrades at Sunwing in the last few years has been quite large and relatively quick as well.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

There are a couple of factors to consider. Sunwing captains go overseas on deployments, so it only makes sense that foreign captains come to Canada as well. The other factor is that Sunwing pilots through their union prefer to see internal upgrades prior to seeing external Direct Entry Captains, as long as there are F/O's qualified for the upgrade. This has worked as the number of captain upgrades at Sunwing in the last few years has been quite large and relatively quick as well.

Sounds and looks like an honest, truthful and plausible reply. However:

This summer Sunwing is sending 4 wet lease to Europe, with a proportional number of Canadian crews.
Next winter, Sunwing is applying for 6 European wet leases, to come and operate in Canada for Sunwing, again with proportional number of crews. Wet lease pilots who come to Canada need no work permit and are not counted as TFW pilots.
So counting the foreign wet-leases pilots alone, there will already be more European pilots coming to Canada than Canadians going to Europe, and there will also be more European Captains coming to Canada than vice versa.

But it wont stop there.

Sunwing plans to operate 37 aircaft next winter, 6 wet leases and 31 Canadian registered aircraft on its own OC. For that it will have on hand the present 210 permanent full time Canadian pilots plus the 40 seasonal pilots it will hire for a total of 250 Canadian pilots, give or take 10.. All the Canadian pilots hired seasonally will be FOs.

To operate 31 aircraft, 250 pilots will not be enough. Sunwing will thus import another 120 TFW pilots, many of which will be captains. Sunwing will upgrade some of its full time FOs for the winter, but will not upgrade enough.
They will never hire an experienced Canadian who is captain material as a seasonal pilot, they will always give those positions to TFW pilots­.

So to conclude:
1) There will be much more European pilots coming to Canada than Sunwing will send to Europe.
2) There will be much more European captains flying in Canada for Sunwing than Canadian Captains flying in Europe.
3) The seasonal captains jobs always go to TFW, never to Canadians.
4) When Sunwing claims to have seasonal Canadian Captains, they mean that some full time Sunwing FOs are upgraded to Captain for the winter, however those Canadian pilots who are hired temporarily for the winter season are always FOs.

Did I make any mistakes aerosexual, or is it 100% correct ?

I received calls and emails from high time Canadian pilots who had been Captains on other type for several defunct airlines in Canada but who either decided not to leave overseas or who left and came back. These would be very pleased to contract with Sunwing to fly with them as capatains in the winter and be laied off in the summer, and never be hired full time, never fo on teh seniority list, just like what is presently done with the TFW captains.

But those captain positions are reserved for TFW pilots........

[volez]

Over 3000h, some decent time on a heavy efis turboprop, still haven't heard anything from Sunwing.

What about you guys ?

[LivingLife]

You're not alone Volez!!

Does anyone know why Sunwing had 7 aircraft based in Europe last summer, and from my understanding the pilot group was interested in returning again this year after the EASA licensing requirements were modified, and this year they are only sending 4?

I had heard that SWG management doesn't want to send any aircraft overseas...not sure how valid this is!! seems a bit unfair that SWG will send a certain number of pilots overseas and in the winter they import a disproportionate amount of pilots.....this isn't even reciprocal!!

Collectively, we all have to make a stand against this!!!

[SeawingsUAE]

aerosexual wrote:
There are a couple of factors to consider. Sunwing captains go overseas on deployments, so it only makes sense that foreign captains come to Canada as well. The other factor is that Sunwing pilots through their union prefer to see internal upgrades prior to seeing external Direct Entry Captains, as long as there are F/O's qualified for the upgrade. This has worked as the number of captain upgrades at Sunwing in the last few years has been quite large and relatively quick as well.

Aerosexual,
If I am reading your post wrong apologies, but you seem to be suggesting that the Sunwing Pilot group are able to exert great influence over Management regards policy. If you are suggesting the practice of taking TFW DECs over off the street Qualified Canadian Captains is as a result of general policy acceptance by the pilots then I would think they are also strong enough to simply dictate that management hire and or train Canadians exclusively.
But I suspect that this is not the case at all, and the pilots simply are told policy, and can choose to either accept it, or vote with their feet.
So if we take the pilot groups preferences out of the equation, we are still left with a policy in place which seems to be very unfair to qualified Canadian pilots, yet is allowed to continue year after year.

[Rogerdodger2]

You're not alone Volez!!

Does anyone know why Sunwing had 7 aircraft based in Europe last summer, and from my understanding the pilot group was interested in returning again this year after the EASA licensing requirements were modified, and this year they are only sending 4?

I had heard that SWG management doesn't want to send any aircraft overseas...not sure how valid this is!! seems a bit unfair that SWG will send a certain number of pilots overseas and in the winter they import a disproportionate amount of pilots.....this isn't even reciprocal!!

Collectively, we all have to make a stand against this!!!

Read my post from May 10th.

[aerosexual]

Aerosexual,
If I am reading your post wrong apologies, but you seem to be suggesting that the Sunwing Pilot group are able to exert great influence over Management regards policy. If you are suggesting the practice of taking TFW DECs over off the street Qualified Canadian Captains is as a result of general policy acceptance by the pilots then I would think they are also strong enough to simply dictate that management hire and or train Canadians exclusively.
But I suspect that this is not the case at all, and the pilots simply are told policy, and can choose to either accept it, or vote with their feet.
So if we take the pilot groups preferences out of the equation, we are still left with a policy in place which seems to be very unfair to qualified Canadian pilots, yet is allowed to continue year after year.[/quote]


With all due respect, I didn't say that Sunwing pilots have great influence over management's policies. But I do maintain that Sunwing pilots via their union have been able to make more progress than what Gilles would allude to. Unfortunately Gilles likes taking credit for this progress which is unfortunate.

But it is my opinion that yes, it makes sense to bring in foreign captains as well as F/O's because Sunwing sends captains and F/O's overseas. In fact, more captains go overseas than F/O's, and the amount of foreign captains versus F/O's that come to Sunwing is relatively equal. What needs to happen is to continue the present movement towards a balanced reciprocity where the numbers are equal coming or going. Years ago Sunwing sent pilots overseas and didn't bring any foreign pilots to Canada. Then slowly Sunwing started bringing in foreign pilots but still sent more Canadians overseas on deployments. The last few years the balance has favoured the European pilots, but it is coming back towards a proper equilibrium, and this progress must continue.

What would be unfair would be to hire Canadian Direct Entry Captains when there are plenty of qualified F/O's at Sunwing willing to take the left seat. Presently the upgrade time is about one and a half to three years. Sunwing has hired Direct Entry Captains in the past, so the company is not immune to this if required.

If anybody is interested in becoming a Sunwing captain, then by all means apply for an FO position and wait until your seniority allows for this to happen. Sounds pretty fair to me. If not, Westjet Encore is hiring Direct Entry Captains right now.

[FL320]

They will start calling soon, don't worry. They are very busy and they have limited resources so it takes time to set up the interviews. The first ground school might be in August as usual (just a guess) so they are on time. 60 positions means about 200 people to interview. If you have near 3000hrs you will probably get a call within the upcoming weeks. At the end, very few experienced pilots are in a position to accept a seasonal contract so it increases your chances to get the job.
The most important is your attitude. You will be flying 80% of your time with a foreign Captain, if you don't agree with this....do not send your resume.

I had heard that SWG management doesn't want to send any aircraft overseas...not sure how valid this is

This is valid. They said they don't make any profit with this. All this process is time consuming and costs a lot of money. But I guess it's better to keep TUI happy.
This summer they sent in Europe fewer aircrafts and crews than usual, but next winter they will need a lot more pilots in Canada than during last winter. The TFW permit printer machine in Ottawa will be working very hard.

Next year the problem will be worse. Pilots will be required to get a full EASA ATPL in order to be deployed in Europe.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Air Transat, which had no B-737s in December 2013, plans to operate 12 of them by December 2014.
So in late 2013 Air Transat recalled all furloughed pilots and began to hire and to train others.

By December 2014, we will have sufficient Canadian pilots to crew all of our 12 B-737s without having to resort to TFW.
Why ? Because we began to hire early, we began to train early. Not in August 2014 like others plan to do.
We are now way overstaffed because we already hired the crews we will need for our future aircraft. Why ? Because we had to in order to avoid TFW pilots.

Sunwing, which plans on operating 31 B-737s next winter, an increase of 5 aircraft from last winter (a number for which they already had an insufficient number of Canadian crews), do not think they can afford to begin hiring and training before August 2014. They will just resort to TFW pilots to operate all the aircraft for which they lack pilots but on which they are already selling seats.

They will use those sold seats as means to pressure ESDC into approving the TFW. Again. Its their business plan.

[Krimson]

It's not as black and white as you lay it out to be.

Different business strategies for different corporations. Ahhhh... the free market world.

[timel]

Next year the problem will be worse. Pilots will be required to get a full EASA ATPL in order to be deployed in Europe.

Wonderfull... That's an attracting deal! While in Canada free for all! Please come!! Sunwing paying for that?

Converting Canadian ICAO licenses into European licenses

How
As you have a European national license, you must first pass a Class 1 medical examination to comply with the standards of the country where you choose to complete your training.

You will subsequently undergo formal training or remote training (DAA), by mail or in an integrated way (full time), and pass the 14 required certificates.

Finally, following your knowledge upgrades, you will have to redo the CPL and IFR flight tests. Some countries require mandatory approved courses and other countries ask to be on par after a few flights and without approved courses.

How much
Depending on the country, it costs between 20 000 € – 25 000 € for a conversion to a EU ATPL.

Where
This training is provided by all members of EASA.

For who
To all holders of European passports who wish to work in Europe.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

It's not as black and white as you lay it out to be.

Different business strategies for different corporations. Ahhhh... the free market world.

I think it's quite black and white, in fact; yes, different strategies... one sound, who respects the laws and regs, one flawed, that relies on a false interpretation of laws and regs and voluntarily delays the process of hiring and training so it can pressure the system into accepting this way of doing things, in the name of low ticket prices and the "free market world"...

[ea306]

Training for Captain upgrades are underway for June and July. Then the new hires commence in August.

[aerosexual]

Air Transat, which had no B-737s in December 2013, plans to operate 12 of them by December 2014.
So in late 2013 Air Transat recalled all furloughed pilots and began to hire and to train others.

By December 2014, we will have sufficient Canadian pilots to crew all of our 12 B-737s without having to resort to TFW.
Why ? Because we began to hire early, we began to train early. Not in August 2014 like others plan to do.
We are now way overstaffed because we already hired the crews we will need for our future aircraft. Why ? Because we had to in order to avoid TFW pilots.

Sunwing, which plans on operating 31 B-737s next winter, an increase of 5 aircraft from last winter (a number for which they already had an insufficient number of Canadian crews), do not think they can afford to begin hiring and training before August 2014. They will just resort to TFW pilots to operate all the aircraft for which they lack pilots but on which they are already selling seats.

They will use those sold seats as means to pressure ESDC into approving the TFW. Again. Its their business plan.

I see you have edited this post Gilles. You previously made reference to how Canjet chose not to lay off pilots, insinuating that Sunwing should hire pilots sooner. The unfortunate part is that both Canjet and Air Transat have a strong history of laying off pilots and Sunwing has never actually laid off one pilot. The threat has been there and notices have even gone out in the past, but in the end never has a pilot been laid off at Sunwing.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

If ESDC accepts Sunwing's argument that it cannot hire and train Canadian pilots for its winter season because Sunwing's business is seasonal and that it would not be cost effective to use Canadians, than that rationale would also become valid for many other specialties in Canadian aviation:

Most Helicopter operations are seasonal
Crop Dusters are seasonal
Para drops are seasonal
Fire suppression is seasonal
Float Flying is seasonal
Most Ski flying is seasonal
And many others.

And it seems that many aircraft operators have caught onto the scheme for over seventy aircraft operators of every stripe made LMO applications for hundreds of foreign pilots in 2013.

The question one must ask is if having "seasonal" business is sufficient justification for hiring TFW pilots over Canadian pilots, because hiring Canadians is not "cost effective" (am using here the exact rationale used by Sunwing in their LMO applications).

[Rogerdodger2]

The rationale started by CanJet and CanJet has been used by Transat for years. But I guess that's ok because Transat isn't doing it themselves directly. Yet.......

[rudder]

The rationale started by CanJet and CanJet has been used by Transat for years. But I guess that's ok because Transat isn't doing it themselves directly. Yet.......

This facility as it applies to commercial airline pilots will eventually be shut down. Companies that rely on it should plan accordingly.

[volez]

Hey guys,

So, I gather that SW is busy training all the upgraded fos in June. Can we expect the calls for the new hires to go out by mid June ?

[aerosexual]

Volez, the interview process has already started. Hopefully you hear something soon. Good luck!

[tiscali]

Did they finish calling people? Are they just calling people with jet time?

[BigQ]

They're not done calling. Interviews throughout June.

[volez]

At this stage, we're all crossing our fingers for an interview phone call