Calm Air and De icing

[Minimums]

But you know what transport inspectors said :"well it's the law ... So it's like that"

Yup. Try and say whatever you need to tell yourself you've justified your actions, be it saving money, time, made the CP like you, because the law lacks common sense, whatever you think.

Come down to the black and white, its your ass.

[GyvAir]

Some people posting on this thread truly sound like they're living in a bubble. I'd like to think that a captain at the ATR level (and I'm not talking an FSX captain) would be capable of exercising good judgement with regards to wing contamination. Is there going to be a similar thread in a month or two, come bug season? Going missed if the black flies were thicker than forecast?

[Maynard]

This is an entertaining read, and it seems like someone else said, lots are living in a bubble. It's not just up north, guaranteed every 703/704 operator in Ontario does the exact same thing. I would argue that the coefficient of friction of the thin layer of ice on the leading edge would be less than the boot itself. To think this would disrupt the airflow to the point that it separates the boundary layer at all, is amusing. Flame away, yeehaw cowboy!

[ettw]

If impact snow was that bad aerodynamically, we'd all be flying a/c with hot leading edges.

Boots don't do much for impact snow and we don't fall the last 5' to the runway when we flair with impact snow on the leading edge so I'll suggest that I'd be just fine with boarding an ATR or equivalent with some impact snow on the leading edge.

I've never heard the term "PR spray". I'm more familiar with the term term "de-icing" and "anti icing".

ETTW

[Illya Kuryakin]

Sure, Minimums..want to borrow my shovel? Or, do you always use your own. What an absolute crock.
Illya

[GyvAir]

I've never heard the term "PR spray". I'm more familiar with the term term "de-icing" and "anti icing".

I'm guessing "Public Relations spray" to avoid having one's safety practices being discussed like this on a public forum.

[Minimums]

This is an entertaining read, and it seems like someone else said, lots are living in a bubble. It's not just up north, guaranteed every 703/704 operator in Ontario does the exact same thing. I would argue that the coefficient of friction of the thin layer of ice on the leading edge would be less than the boot itself. To think this would disrupt the airflow to the point that it separates the boundary layer at all, is amusing. Flame away, yeehaw cowboy!

Your right, almost every operator in Ontario does it. The 748 drivers up there have a field day no matter what the weather is.

However, you can argue all you want, and apply your professional level of knowledge and experience to a transport inspector if your ever caught. Let me know how you make out with that.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Minimums......I'll fly MY airplane. You fly YOURS.
Illya

[CpnCrunch]

Yes, this thread has to rank as the most entertaining and enlightening one I've ever read here.

Last time I checked the leading edge was part of the wing, and therefore a critical surface, so by law it has to be clear of ice on takeoff.

The worrying thing about this thread is that some low-timer might think it's ok to blast off with a thin layer of ice. A cessna 172 took off with 1/16" ice on the wing, and it crashed and burned after takeoff. Obviously if you have a larger wing and/or deicing then your plane can handle more ice. However you're still operating illegally if you take off with ice, and you're acting as a test pilot.

IMO it's just laziness and/or being a cheap-ass not to properly deice (or clean the bugs off) before taking off. The comments above are basically whining along the lines of "its too expensive" or "I can't be bothered getting up there with a broom". Last time I checked not many airports down south have deicing facilities either.

Feel free to flame away.

[timel]

Yes, this thread has to rank as the most entertaining and enlightening one I've ever read here.

Last time I checked the leading edge was part of the wing, and therefore a critical surface, so by law it has to be clear of ice on takeoff.

The worrying thing about this thread is that some low-timer might think it's ok to blast off with a thin layer of ice. A cessna 172 took off with 1/16" ice on the wing, and it crashed and burned after takeoff. Obviously if you have a larger wing and/or deicing then your plane can handle more ice. However you're still operating illegally if you take off with ice, and you're acting as a test pilot.

IMO it's just laziness and/or being a cheap-ass not to properly deice (or clean the bugs off) before taking off. The comments above are basically whining along the lines of "its too expensive" or "I can't be bothered getting up there with a broom". Last time I checked not many airports down south have deicing facilities either.

Feel free to flame away.

Earned + 1500 hrs of c172,182,210, pipers, rockwell, taildragger... And always de-iced the critical surfaces before lifting with no compromises, frost, ice or what ever.
Yes it's a good point for single piston flyers.

By the way, if you get stuck at some place with frost on your cessna wings car windshield washer at your car fuel station does a great job.

I have to disagree with you about laziness thou. It is rough conditions of work up there sometimes and people have to kick their asses and make things work.
The broom doesn't always work as discussed previously, the place make that people work differently that's it.

[Illya Kuryakin]

CpnCrunch........consider yourself FLAMED
Illya

[Onmyboat]

Bungee has accomplished exactly what he was trying to do here. It was never about a healthy discussion about de-icing aircraft, it was about taking a shot at Calm Air in a public forum and watching it errupt. His statement is not true. After some info Bungee posted on here and some discussion at work it's more clear why he might be making his statements. Bungee used to work at Calm Air but that didn't end so well. 30 years of multiple companies usually isn't because you've had bad luck in the industry.

Threads like this and their extreme comments in both directions make me embarrassed to be a pilot in this country.

[BE82]

did bungee try stabbing Calm Air??

[bungee]

No I have never worked for Calm Air, I have been a private pilot for the last 30 years. No bone to pick with Calm Air at all, as on the whole they seem like a good company. Would like to see more due attention paid to de-icing. I am gainfully employed outside the aviation world, and other than renting when I get the chance there is no way I am going to ever own one.

[timel]

Bungee next time call the company directly and tell them about your concerns before going public like that. Pictures help. If you feel they don't want to know about your concerns than you can take other dispositions.


I would agree with Onmyboat thou, it's easy to go on a public forum with a nickname and say whatever you want and it really sounds like a revenge more than anything else.
And if i wanted to seem serious about my allegations I would go with my real name.

[JeppsOnFire]

Many years ago I believed in black and white, yes and no; 1's and 0's.
Then I became PIC.
Now it seems everywhere I look I see greys, maybe's and fractions.
Oh to be young again...

[ei ei owe]

bungee,

You just just wasted the time it took me to read these 4 sad pages. You are clearly bored and have nothing useful to add here except the image of a timid weiner that can't confidently stand up for himself. I will say that the attention promoted to de icing as whole was constructive so at least that's good.

If however you are legit about this concern, I would appreciate if you shared your feedback from your conversation with the Calm Air CP. I think we will all be waiting a while for that. Now, beat it and let the adults talk about important things.

[SRV]

It's quite simple really, to deice or not to deice. In the end, if any incident or accident occurs and can be traced back to a non-compliance with the reg's, it is the insurance company that is off the hook and you, your family, the AOC holder and their family etc that get to pay the price. Every time you take a risk the odds are depreciating against you.

[Illya Kuryakin]

bungee,

You just just wasted the time it took me to read these 4 sad pages. You are clearly bored and have nothing useful to add here except the image of a timid weiner that can't confidently stand up for himself. I will say that the attention promoted to de icing as whole was constructive so at least that's good.

If however you are legit about this concern, I would appreciate if you shared your feedback from your conversation with the Calm Air CP. I think we will all be waiting a while for that. Now, beat it and let the adults talk about important things.

Good plan! After dumping on him for "forcing" you to read four "sad" pages, and referring to him as "the image of a timid wiener....", you want him to share his feedback from Calm Air with you? How's the public relations gig working out for you? Nice. Really nice.
Illya

[pdw]

...Would like to see more due attention paid to de-icing. I am gainfully employed outside the aviation world, and other than renting when I get the chance there is no way I am going to ever own one.

Sounds like you get around a bit in the world of aviation. Like you I've been interested to see an improvement in the hospitality extended to transient aircraft with regards to reasonably priced icing facilities when required ... or at least that the lack of that option never stands in the way of anyone making a safe winter departure from our local airport.

What is soon evident ... that an enormous pricetag comes with complying to the environmental constraints. For one's dream to come true to be a de-ice compatable airport with all the bells and whistles, "to see more due attention paid to de-icing ", involves quite a bit of red tape. The ever present funding question ... whether the 'average seat price' and overall airport revenue is able to sustain a de-ice facility in addition to already present airport operating budget constraints.

How does it list 'availablity' in the CFS for your own airport ?

[pdw]

Some people posting on this thread truly sound like they're living in a bubble. I'd like to think that a captain at the ATR level (and I'm not talking an FSX captain) would be capable of exercising good judgement with regards to wing contamination. Is there going to be a similar thread in a month or two, come bug season? Going missed if the black flies were thicker than forecast?

I can see all the bugsmashers now ... lined up with their leading edges caked with all the fresh bug carcasses clinging there in early spring or summer. Have often wondered what the effects are on lift when it gets real bad.

Most of the time it looked like the top/bottom curvages of the wingshapes are blown fairly clean where the bug strikes are more decisive on direction ... just in the middle where I suppose they could start layering on a bit thick at times ....

Good catch Gyvair ... it's definitely smart to consider all lift disadvantages while we are at it deciding what's what.

[North Shore]

And with that, PDW gets the last word. Not much more to be discussed here.