Encore gets one list and a new pay scale.

[7thirtyseven]

Sorry Stig- I don't see the similarities.

The similarity is that a DHC8 and a A330 are simply just aircraft types.

I'm in no way saying this is going to happen because WJ's management actually seems to value maintaining a good relationship with the pilot group. But for a second imagine if your management held another company wide employee vote on a proposal to start up another carrier (Westjet International has just been mentioned, so we'll run with that), except for arguments sake, say WJ's current FA's were going to be from the same group. How would that vote end up? The current group of mainline WJ pilots could get left out in the cold, right? You don't have any scope language because you're not actually a union. You couldn't even stake a claim to this flying as your because you've already allowed TC to do it on your behalf for years.

We all know this isn't going to happen because the pilot group would riot right? Why? Because widebody jobs are viewed as being above you (and the group would fight to keep those positions, even though they're not actually yours yet), not below you like flying a Dash 8 which you gladly handed over to your managers to set up a Tier 2 airline (even though the flying wasn't yours either) the group could have insisted that every pilot hired at Encore could have been hired by the same company under the same contract (at a different pay scale) but who wants to fight for a job they don't want. Instead you're sitting here cheerleading as if Encore actually is some little start-up airline to justify wages 10% below industry standard. Why would you care, you're already flying the 737, and every penny they don't earn benefits your profit sharing and stock options.

Excellent post, the stig, balanced but thought provoking. I doubt if your critics above had any clue what you are saying.

[aerodude]

The similarity is that a DHC8 and a A330 are simply just aircraft types.

I'm in no way saying this is going to happen because WJ's management actually seems to value maintaining a good relationship with the pilot group. But for a second imagine if your management held another company wide employee vote on a proposal to start up another carrier (Westjet International has just been mentioned, so we'll run with that), except for arguments sake, say WJ's current FA's were going to be from the same group. How would that vote end up? The current group of mainline WJ pilots could get left out in the cold, right? You don't have any scope language because you're not actually a union. You couldn't even stake a claim to this flying as your because you've already allowed TC to do it on your behalf for years.

We all know this isn't going to happen because the pilot group would riot right? Why? Because widebody jobs are viewed as being above you (and the group would fight to keep those positions, even though they're not actually yours yet), not below you like flying a Dash 8 which you gladly handed over to your managers to set up a Tier 2 airline (even though the flying wasn't yours either) the group could have insisted that every pilot hired at Encore could have been hired by the same company under the same contract (at a different pay scale) but who wants to fight for a job they don't want. Instead you're sitting here cheerleading as if Encore actually is some little start-up airline to justify wages 10% below industry standard. Why would you care, you're already flying the 737, and every penny they don't earn benefits your profit sharing and stock options.

Well said, what is to stop WJ from making a widebody seperate airline? Where do I apply

[BE20 Driver]

Would you feel the same if Westjet set up it's upcoming widebody operation as a wholly owned subsidiary, hired direct entry Captains, others off the street and only 25% flow through from mainline? Encore isn't young, it's a brand, it should simply be seen as another type of aircraft being introduced to the fleet.

Sorry Stig- I don't see the similarities.

TheStig makes a point. Currently, Encore and WestJet are separate companies and have separate OC's. Each division has separate policies and pay structures. Management, right up to Gregg, has said that Encore WAWCON is below industry standard because we are an experiment. When Encore was created, no one was sure if we would thrive or flop.

At a recent town hall meeting, Gregg was quoted as saying that purchasing wide body aircraft would also be an experiment. Again, they are fairly certain that there is a business case for WB flying but aren't sure about how successful it could be.

If you use the logic that both Encore and WB flying are both experiments with unproven business models, then they should both have similar WAWCON philosophies. Industry median -10% for pay, 1/2 ESPP, different medical/dental benefits etc.

[Double Wasp]

There's been about 150 new hires at mainline over the last 24 months. Encore now has about 130 pilots. With a minimum flow of 25% to mainline the newest Encore pilot on the list right now will need to see mainline hire another 520 pilots before he or she flows over. With roughly 75 pilots hired at mainline per year that's a wait of about 7 years for anybody starting at Encore now.

Anybody that has a good 704/705 gig is most likely better off where they are now. If you want to work at WestJet I'd take my chances with getting hired off the street, it'll be quicker and you'll avoid Encore. Same goes for anyone thinking about Encore's direct entry captain positions, as you'll be slotted in at #130+ to flow over.

But hey, flow may increase to 100%, then it's only a two year wait!

A small point, in an airline environment a person has to remember that you have to be in this for the long game. With one list would you not be a 737 captain shortly after you flowed (to be read as real money and lifestyle), and if you wait for your mainline job you would still be behind all these folks you made the switch early and got their number ahead of you?
While Encore pay may not be the best ( by far), if you go now you get your number the clock starts for your pick of bases and soon to be aircraft on the mainline side. If you wait you will have even more guys ahead of you before you. One list has cut years off for anyone who wishes to take the hit and go to Encore.
Cheers
DW

[complexintentions]

I could rephrase The Stig from another angle.

I have over 6,000 hours on the B777, international ops, split between both seats. I would be delighted to contribute my experience to being hired directly into the left seat of a Westjet widebody operation. (And there are a lot more Canadian expats itching to come home. Unfortunately, because I don't have an NG rating I'm not qualified to work at Sunwing or CanJet. hahah!)

I trust the pilots at mainline wouldn't have a problem with that, given that they don't have any with the pilots hired directly to the left seat of the DHC8, being a "startup" and all?

Just tell me where to send my resume!

[jjj]

Complex.

Don't think you'll get that chance.

Lots of guys here with heavy Airbus and/or Boeing time.

Unfortunately despite your resume - it's bottom of the list.

Unlike most other professions - we can rarely take our status/pay and move laterally.


JJJ

[complexintentions]

Wait a sec, that doesn't make sense though jjj! Lots of guys there with DHC-8 experience time too (heck, most of them came from Jazz anyway) but still they hired all captains off the street for Encore when it started up, did they not?

Why would a widebody operation be different?

[True North]

Wait a sec, that doesn't make sense though jjj! Lots of guys there with DHC-8 experience time too (heck, most of them came from Jazz anyway) but still they hired a lot of direct entry captains for Encore when it started up.

Why would a widebody operation be different?

Really?

[complexintentions]

hahah yes, REALLY! Let's hear the explanation why it makes sense to crew one startup one way and another, a different way.

[True North]

I'll go way out on a limb here and speculate that Encore DEC positions were open to current WJ pilots but no one bit. I'll go even further and suggest that there will be no lack of current WJ pilots bidding on a widebody.

[DBC]

So 100% flow is fine for the 737 guys to move up, but 100% flow to the 737 would break the company?

[True North]

So 100% flow is fine for the 737 guys to move up, but 100% flow to the 737 would break the company?

Gawd some of you guys are thick.

I've heard minimum 2 maximum 4 widebodies for WJ at this point vs what? 10, 12 Q400s a year? You do the math. Even with that, according to DaveP a few posts back the goal is 100% flow. Did you even read the title of the thread?

[FICU]

I'll go way out on a limb here and speculate that Encore DEC positions were open to current WJ pilots but no one bit.

Not true because I know more than a few WS F/Os that would have taken the left seat on the Q. It made the most sense to most but not the majority of the owners who didn't want profit cut at the expense of well paid, home grown, Q Captains.

[True North]

I'll go way out on a limb here and speculate that Encore DEC positions were open to current WJ pilots but no one bit.

Not true because I know more than a few WS F/Os that would have taken the left seat on the Q. It made the most sense to most but not the majority of the owners who didn't want profit cut at the expense of well paid, home grown, Q Captains.

So are you saying these FOs wanted the DEC positions at Encore but wanted to keep their WJ wages, and that's why they didn't go?

[dukepoint]

I could rephrase The Stig from another angle.

I have over 6,000 hours on the B777, international ops, split between both seats. I would be delighted to contribute my experience to being hired directly into the left seat of a Westjet widebody operation. (And there are a lot more Canadian expats itching to come home. Unfortunately, because I don't have an NG rating I'm not qualified to work at Sunwing or CanJet. hahah!)

I trust the pilots at mainline wouldn't have a problem with that, given that they don't have any with the pilots hired directly to the left seat of the DHC8, being a "startup" and all?

Just tell me where to send my resume!

Air Canada is paying year one Skippers on the 767 LCC about 125K a year, topping out around 188k. AC FO's are for the most part making 40-70k.......not 90-100k.This unfortunate situation might have an impact on the Widebody start-up at WJ. I don't think Management will take kindly to having to pay top scale wages (210k+) to a 737 Skipper transitioning over, pay for his/her training and also pay to train a new 737 pilot, then train a new replacement pilot at Encore. Keeping the companies separate and hiring Expats is a very logical and "cost concious" choice. As stated, the precident has alrady been set with Encore.

Edited to add: At Rouge, there are 275 seats on a 767-300.........Rouge "new hire" flight attendants earn on average $25k/year. Assuming the crew who bid Widebody at WJ would be only the most senior, the crew costs alone would be significantly higher than a similar Rouge operation. Rouge also has economy of scale working in its favor with 20 767's. I'm certain this is the model WJ would attempt to emulate, but it just doesn't work using "top pay scale" employees.

DP.

[FICU]

I'll go way out on a limb here and speculate that Encore DEC positions were open to current WJ pilots but no one bit.

Not true because I know more than a few WS F/Os that would have taken the left seat on the Q. It made the most sense to most but not the majority of the owners who didn't want profit cut at the expense of well paid, home grown, Q Captains.

So are you saying these FOs wanted the DEC positions at Encore but wanted to keep their WJ wages, and that's why they didn't go?

I'm saying it was never an option because WJ wouldn't pay them a decent wage as a Q Captain because it would cost too much. The majority of "owner" shareholders are Captains and management.

[True North]

I'm saying it was never an option because WJ wouldn't pay them a decent wage as a Q Captain because it would cost too much. The majority of "owner" shareholders are Captains and management.

Your arguement is irrelevant to the discussion, this isn't about wages. The discussion was why shouldn't WJ hire direct entry captains for the widebody operation since Encore is hiring direct entry captains.

The Encore DEC positions were open to WJ pilots, the fact that none took it is why they are hiring DEC off the street. The reasons no one took it are irrelevant, my point is that it was/is an option.

[FICU]

You said you were going to "go out on a limb and speclute". Now you state it as fact when it isn't. Enjoy the conversation with yourself.

[DH772]

Air Canada is paying year one Skippers on the 767 LCC about 125K a year, topping out around 188k. AC FO's are for the most part making 40-70k.......not 90-100k.

Most FO's are making 40-70k? Where are you getting your information from? Are you comparing all AC FO's? Or narrowbody? first 4 years?
I'd say majority of AC FO's are making well over 100k. If you're past 4 year freeze and not on EMB you're making over 100k.

[Donald]

So based on the Encore formula, one could guess the year 1 wide body captain at WJ will make $112,500?

[True North]

You said you were going to "go out on a limb and speclute". Now you state it as fact when it isn't. Enjoy the conversation with yourself.

You're funny.

Speculation, until it was confirmed as fact by my friend. He is in WJ Flight Ops management so I'm inclined to believe what he says. You on the other hand, can believe whatever gets you through the night.

[dukepoint]

Air Canada is paying year one Skippers on the 767 LCC about 125K a year, topping out around 188k. AC FO's are for the most part making 40-70k.......not 90-100k.

Most FO's are making 40-70k? Where are you getting your information from? Are you comparing all AC FO's? Or narrowbody? first 4 years?
I'd say majority of AC FO's are making well over 100k. If you're past 4 year freeze and not on EMB you're making over 100k.

Whoa dude........I was talking about Rouge 767. That's the model WestJet will need to emulate to compete, not Mainline. 75% of the Rouge 767 FO's are in their first 3 years, or direct entry new hires. 40-70k is about right. So....if WJ hired "in house", Rouge would have cheeper Captains, likely cheeper FO's, cheeper FA's and a huge economy of scale (maintanace, spares, replacement aircraft in the event one went tech, ...etc) , plus a currently established overseas route system. For WJ to hire "in-house" the salarys wouldn't compare. Not a good way to start. The ideal solution for the WJ share price would be to hire everyone involved "off the street"...just like back in 1996. Minimize cost, maximize yield. Assuming the positions would be offered to those senior first, why pay a 60% premium in wages just to crew five or six widebodys??? Financially it doesn't make any sense. If I was a shareholder, I'd vote for reducing cost, not to appease a relatively small portion of WJ employees. I'd expect them to "take one for the team", just like everyone did back in '96. I'm sure the list of very experienced Expats who've already earned their fortune overseas willing to fly a '76 for $135k living in Canada, is likely far longer than you could imagine.

P.S. How could WJ pilots possibly justify earning 737NG wages when their main competition is currently flying 767's significantly cheeper? Thank the Harper government for lowering the Widebody wage bar, and Rouge pilots for accepting it.

Just my opinion, DP.

[Wacko]

So... I skimmed the posts and maybe I missed it but what's the new pay scale? It's not updated on the WestJet website... or is 68/hour for captain the new pay scale?

[bythenumbers]

FO Rate Annually
Year 0 $38.97 $37,411
Year 1 $40.65 $39,024
Year 2 $42.42 $40,723
Year 3 $44.25 $42,480
Year 4 $46.17 $44,323

Captain Rate Annually
Year 0 $70.91 $68,074
Year 1 $72.80 $69,888
Year 2 $74.75 $71,760
Year 3 $76.75 $73,680
Year 4 $78.80 $75,648

"Annually" is based on min guarantee of 80 hours per month

[dhc#]

I believe the 80hr/month guarantee is only till Jan 2015, at which point it will be reviewed...who knows it could go back down to 70 hrs/month...this may happen if the inefficient scheduling is fixed once more tails + crews come online.