College of pilots

[AirFrame]

A lot of people complain but do nothing. We have a group here that want to do something, and they are not getting any support. There are over 10,000 professional pilots in Canada, yet less than 1000 of you are members.

I think the largest problem is that it's not 100% clear what it is that the CPPC really wants to "do".

The CPPC needs to represent Helicopter pilots, crop duster pilots, flight instructors, charter pilots, corporate pilots, commuter pilots, airline pilots, water bomber pilots, survey pilots, bush pilots and specialty work pilots. Even unemployed professional pilots looking for work.

But not Private, Recreational, Ultralight, etc. pilots, where you all start out. Why not?

[lost in the north]

What is a fair wage for a 185, DHC-2, 206, or a light twin in the north?

[Meatservo]

But not Private, Recreational, Ultralight, etc. pilots, where you all start out. Why not?

The same reason the Canadian Merchant Service guild doesn't represent water-skiers and sea-doos, I would imagine.

[Koalemos]

The quotes below are taken directly from the FAQ section of their website.

Some people want a body that controls licensing to control supply and demand:

HOW DOES THE COLLEGE FIT WITH TRANSPORT CANADA AND ICAO?

Being a professional pilot is much different than other professions as we can practice our work in multiple jurisdictions and countries on a single flight. The College has no interest in issuing licences or developing regulations, and consequently views Transport Canada and ICAO as key partners. The College does however aspire to maintain the standards and calibre of professional pilots on behalf of, or in conjunction with, Transport Canada. This is indeed a complex endeavour and many details remain to be finalized.

Others want a group to directly affect and control WAWCON:

IS THIS A UNION?

No. The College will oversee, maintain and promote the calibre of professional pilots in Canada. The College has no interest to represent pilots in labour disputes or industrial affairs, set pay rates or develop a national seniority list. The College does intend to develop relationships and collaborate with unions, government, professional associations, industry and other stakeholder groups related to aviation to act as a vehicle to facilitate professionalism and best practices industry wide.

So what will it actually do:

WHAT WILL THE COLLEGE DO FOR ME AND THE INDUSTRY?

The College intends to ensure public safety and in collaboration with all stakeholders, will oversee, maintain and promote the calibre of professional pilots in Canada. We intend to maintain the high standards of professionalism we already enjoy here in Canada by creating an environment of continuous learning and the sharing of “best practices” in areas of training, mentoring and support.

Looking at this from a practical perspective, this leaves me slightly confused as to how they will achieve their objective with no control over labour disputes, working conditions or regulations. Don't get me wrong, I hope the college succeeds, but some more insight into their plans would be nice.

[AirFrame]

But not Private, Recreational, Ultralight, etc. pilots, where you all start out. Why not?

The same reason the Canadian Merchant Service guild doesn't represent water-skiers and sea-doos, I would imagine.

Except not everyone in the Canadian Merchant Service Guild started out on a water-ski or sea-doo. Every Commercial Pilot started out with a lesser license.

[Rockie]

Looking at this from a practical perspective, this leaves me slightly confused as to how they will achieve their objective with no control over labour disputes, working conditions or regulations. Don't get me wrong, I hope the college succeeds, but some more insight into their plans would be nice.

As the College will never have "official" status of any kind the best they can hope for I think is to be an advocacy group for professional pilots at large in Canada. But they could be quite effective at that if they are able to achieve a high enough level of membership to legitimately speak for the cohort.

And Rockie, I work in an industry now that pays large amounts for good productive workers. I have seen no unions in my 10 years in the oil and gas business. Who needs them? I am also self-employed.

Safety standards in any industry are a direct result of workers organizing and demanding them. Corporations that treat their employees very well without a union do so to avoid unions and because they are competing for those workers with unionized businesses, so indirectly those employees also benefit from unions. Some unions are ineffective. Other unions are extremely effective to the point of making it very difficult for a business to be viable. But on balance unions are what a healthy middle class (including you) owe its existence to.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Show me a mandate to
Pay junior pilots a working wage
Abolish bonds and endentured servitude
encourage the suspension/revocation of OCs from companies blatantly circumventing CARS.
Discourage operators from pushing young pilots in over their heads.
Clean up aviation in this country BELOW the level most of your current airline members operate.
Lobby TSB to release accident details that might prevent repeat performances, in a timely manner.

Then, perhaps I'll look into your little country club.
Until I see some more steak, and a lot less salad on the plate, I'm not interested.
Illya

Quoting myself here, but it's a pretty simple question. Do you intend to address the above? What is your mandate. Forget the potatoes, tell us about the steak. Wha DO you intend to do? For whom? How do you intend to get there? Why are you calling it a "college"? You totally lost me at "college", and I doubt I'm alone on this. Seems your heads are in the clouds and in your butt at the same time.
Illya

[timel]

People, why don't you write to the college of pilots and ask them kindly your questions.
Your reflexions could as well be food for thought to them.

CONTACT​
COLLEGE OF PROFESSIONAL PILOTS OF CANADA
Questions to:

inquiries@collegeofpilots.ca

[Illya Kuryakin]

People, why don't you write to the college of pilots and ask them kindly your questions.
Your reflexions could as well be food for thought to them.

CONTACT​
COLLEGE OF PROFESSIONAL PILOTS OF CANADA
Questions to:

inquiries@collegeofpilots.ca

They have a perfect medium right here on this website to beat their drum. If they want members, they can tell us their plans right here. For some reason they seem hesitant to do so. So, it's up to individual pilots to contact them? On what planet? You want my $$$$? Get off your asses, and earn it. They come across as a group of airline pilots with a hobby.
Illya

[Diadem]

Ilya, I'm not always on board with you, but this time I'm with you 100%. Those are my exact concerns; they don't seem to have a plan to actually do anything of any substance. Making Canadian pilots the most professional in the world? That's an utterly pointless goal without something of substance to back it up, and it's certainly not worth my money.

[timel]

Well, let's not lie to ourselves, it is not by visiting avcanada daily that you will act or become professional.
You want to define what a professional pilot is, sure let's do it.

You the old folks have done your mistakes, you did your plenty of overweight take off, busting minimums and you have seen regulations change..
Know what, it is still happening today. That accident forum is still full of it.

Less than before but pilots still don't get it, yes there is a need to educate ourselves as pilots, get a voice for it and stop making over and over the same mistakes. Where do you learn decision making and saying no to your boss? How to recognize positive work attitudes and those that are not?

Do you think operators educate pilots in a 3 days navajo ground-school?

Flight schools don't teach commercial pilots how to become or behave professionally.(Yes not all but not my experience - please photofly don't get crazy on me for saying that)
Instruction is for many pilots a way to build hours for bigger. (Helicopters it takes a bit more of experience).

Some pilots, even very hourly ones, still believe it is all right not to care about take off alternates, not taking enough fuel or just behave like cowboys to whom the skies belong.

College of pilots is offering some mentoring program, they seems to be building a library as well and they want to set some code of conduct. That is my perspective. More to come I hope. Worth my 60$/year (almost one day perdiem - no crying)

You guys come with better solutions and I am buying.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Time. Yup. Lots wrong. Pilots being pushed to not carry fuel. (keystone). Pushed to ignore WX. So what's the college plan? They have a library. And, they're going to mentor? How will they mentor some HO driver in Upper Arm Pit Lake, being told to push, "or the next guy will...." Sure.
Meanwhile, it's up to us to write them?
I've voiced my concerns. So have others. Still waiting. Working conditions, fair wages, bonds etc. their silence says it all.
Illya

[Diadem]

Timel, how exactly does one enforce professionalism across an entire industry? Will there be mandatory courses that are required before obtaining a licence? That would require regulatory changes. Will they have the ability to strip the licence off of anyone who is acting "unprofessional"? Again, regulatory changes. Have they even defined "professionalism", and if not then who gets to decide what that entails? Will they just find the pilots they think aren't representing the industry well enough and say "Hey, come on guys, knock it off" in a pouty voice? There's one thing that they've actually stated they're going to do, but they don't have any tangible, practical plans for instituting their professionalism goals. It's a bunch of buzz words and feel-good statements without actually doing anything, and in the meantime they keep taking your money.

[timel]

Time. Yup. Lots wrong. Pilots being pushed to not carry fuel. (keystone). Pushed to ignore WX. So what's the college plan? They have a library. And, they're going to mentor? How will they mentor some HO driver in Upper Arm Pit Lake, being told to push, "or the next guy will...." Sure.
Meanwhile, it's up to us to write them?
I've voiced my concerns. So have others. Still waiting. Working conditions, fair wages, bonds etc. their silence says it all.
Illya

My perspective on mentoring, it is a one to one relationship, so you can talk freely, unlike on a public forum.

First of all, how did you end up HO driver in Upper Arm Pit Lake?
Would you have ended up there if you would have had a mentor? Maybe someone could have helped you with knowledge in order to identify and avoid places where you must not work as pilot?

Mentoring is also about information, no one speaks about what is really going on, if you bring information to people with more means than you, it may help channel the information to TC in a way that will not harm you?

For my first instructor job I would have taken some mentoring.




Diadem, enforcing professionalism is one, teaching it an other.
Again what is professionalism? Is it shaving every morning and dressing tight? Or is it not taking off when your airplane is not airworthy or busting minimums? I think there are basics we can all agree on.

[Cat Driver]

Mentoring is also about information, no one speaks about what is really going on, if you bring information to people with more means than you, it may help channel the information to TC in a way that will not harm you?

Channeling information to TC ?

What possible good does that do?

[timel]

Mentoring is also about information, no one speaks about what is really going on, if you bring information to people with more means than you, it may help channel the information to TC in a way that will not harm you?

Channeling information to TC ?

What possible good does that do?

I don't want to divert from the topic of the college, but I was referring to operators spoken in that thread (rotten tomatoes): http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=100067

Some don't believe in TC institution anymore. But if it is your question we can start an other thread on that.

[Diadem]

Diadem, enforcing professionalism is one, teaching it an other.
Again what is professionalism? Is it shaving every morning and dressing tight? Or is it not taking off when your airplane is not airworthy or busting minimums? I think there are basics we can all agree on.

I learned professionalism from the captains I flew with at my first job, and from my coworkers and bosses before I became a pilot. I don't see how this organization has a monopoly on professionalism, or even that it is the best group to teach that.
Taking off in an aircraft that isn't airworthy and busting minima are illegal, and yet people still do it. If the risk of criminal charges isn't enough of a deterrent, why would a stern warning about professionalism from the might College of Pilots change their minds?
The CoP reminds me of a timeshare salesman in a slick suit with greased-back hair who won't give me any details on the sale, but keeps telling me that it's going to solve all of my problems.
"How am I going to make money by buying this?"
"Don't worry about the small details right now. You need to look at the bigger picture! Everything will be so much better if you sign right here."
"What big picture? How is this good for me?"
"We'll get into that after you give us your money. Don't worry, you can trust us."
Well, I don't trust the CoP enough to give them my money, and I won't until they actually plan on doing something for me.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Time. Yup. Lots wrong. Pilots being pushed to not carry fuel. (keystone). Pushed to ignore WX. So what's the college plan? They have a library. And, they're going to mentor? How will they mentor some HO driver in Upper Arm Pit Lake, being told to push, "or the next guy will...." Sure.
Meanwhile, it's up to us to write them?
I've voiced my concerns. So have others. Still waiting. Working conditions, fair wages, bonds etc. their silence says it all.
Illya

My perspective on mentoring, it is a one to one relationship, so you can talk freely, unlike on a public forum.

First of all, how did you end up HO driver in Upper Arm Pit Lake?
Would you have ended up there if you would have had a mentor? Maybe someone could have helped you with knowledge in order to identify and avoid places where you must not work as pilot?

Mentoring is also about information, no one speaks about what is really going on, if you bring information to people with more means than you, it may help channel the information to TC in a way that will not harm you?

For my first instructor job I would have taken some mentoring.




Diadem, enforcing professionalism is one, teaching it an other.
Again what is professionalism? Is it shaving every morning and dressing tight? Or is it not taking off when your airplane is not airworthy or busting minimums? I think there are basics we can all agree on.

So then, a mentor would tell where to work, and where not to? Based on what exactly? Reality check mate, there are some pilots who really enjoy being a HO driver in remote places. It's where the jobs are. How will you mentor them? One on one? You need to wear clear glasses.
You didn't answer the question "How will you enforce professionalism...?" And, what's with the "code of ethics"? Who sets the example here? Or was it "conduct"? Same question applies.
I see absolutely no benefits here. I've mentioned, on several occasions, what I'd like to see looked after.
Illya

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Profesional Pilots need to unite in order to have a voice that speaks on our behalf. For the time being no one speaks on our behalf, no one listens to us.
Meanwhile, while we pussyfoot about petty BS, most of our employers have united in order to be heard:

http://www.atac.ca
http://www.h-a-c.ca
http://www.canadianaerialapplicators.com
http://www.floatplaneoperators.org
http://www.cbaa-acaa.ca

Our employers understand the principle and advantages of unity, which is why most of them, although fierce competitors, not only united as one, but also why most of them dont like it when us pilots unite, be it under a union, an association or a college.

Sometimes I wonder if some of the anonymous posters on this Forum aren't Fifth column.

In May 2012, we did a petition against the foreign pilots and gathered almost 2500 signatures that many of you signed and we delivered it in person to the Immigration Minister with a copy to the Commons Immigration Committee. They didn't even acknowledge its receipt. They just ignored us. That is how much leverage we have: ZERO.

I know that at least one of the Operator Association listed above has lobbied in favor of TFW pilots, saying they needed foreign pilots to remain in business..... In the meantime we have no voice to counter such claims......

When TC or the Minister, or a Commons Committee wants to hear from pilots, they contact ALPA and CALPA. Some of you out there now have a chance to have your own voice and not always let pilot groups made up 100 per cent of fixed wing airline types speak for you, and instead of jumping on board, you either spit on it or fall for the Trolls.
For 60 miserable dollars that many of you would not hesitate to spend on beer in a single evening......
My spouse spends thousands of dollars annually for her professional association. I spend over 3000 per year on ALPA union dues, a union that could not care less if TC allows Foreign licensed pilots to fly in Canada with foreign licenses

[timel]

The CoP reminds me of a timeshare salesman in a slick suit with greased-back hair who won't give me any details on the sale, but keeps telling me that it's going to solve all of my problems.
"How am I going to make money by buying this?"
"Don't worry about the small details right now. You need to look at the bigger picture! Everything will be so much better if you sign right here."
"What big picture? How is this good for me?"
"We'll get into that after you give us your money. Don't worry, you can trust us."
Well, I don't trust the CoP enough to give them my money, and I won't until they actually plan on doing something for me.

Doctors, lawyers, nurses, optometrists all have colleges.
They all have a voice they can use in order to defend or promote themselves.
So far I think they are well served.

We pilots are like a bunch of chicken running around with no heads, some days I feel defeated by how disorganized we are. Yes we need to unite under a neutral flag that is a college in order to serve ourselves better.

But I agree that it is important to keep a critical view point at all time in the process.

[CanadianEh]

In my opinion, in order for this to be successful the College needs to look at other professional governing bodies and see what they are doing (ie: College of Physicians). This has already been done successful across many professions, we do not need to reinvent the wheel. Even if we cannot be run like the College of Physicians, there would definitely be some parts that are transferable.

To those who argue that this will not work because the scope of flying jobs is so large, I disagree. Professional bodies that currently exist have smaller groups within the overall profession.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Gilles, I take it, you have no intentions of addressing the few items that I've listed? These indies have a much further bearing on the bottom end of the industry, than whether or not foreign pilots are abLe to work in this country (many Canadian pilots work abroad, I'm sure you have no issues with this) my issues involve safety and, fairness in the work place. To me, at least, assuring the, shall we say, lower levels of the industry remain safe is more important than setting up a college library, any code of ethics/conduct will ever be. Knowing that Joe Lowtime, can turn down a trip without the pressure of being dismissed, and owing the company many thousands of dollars.
You mentioned your 3000$ in Union fees not caring about foreign workers? Perhaps that's where you should be spending your time, because by the time you've reached the point that you are a CALPA member, the unfair business practices are pretty much behind you.
I want to hear what your intentions are towards forcing young pilots to push WX, bonds, poor pay at the entry level, general crap working conditions.
So far you've pretty much hidden behind smoke and mirrors.
Nobody has a right to limit the number of people entering ANY field of endouver, be it teaching, medicine, plumbing, or aviation.
I'm not even interested in "your" code of ethics. If somebody is not an asshole, I'm pretty satisfied with that....we all should be.
So far, I've seen nothing that will help pilots in entry level situations.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

In my opinion, in order for this to be successful the College needs to look at other professional governing bodies and see what they are doing (ie: College of Physicians). This has already been done successful across many professions, we do not need to reinvent the wheel. Even if we cannot be run like the College of Physicians, there would definitely be some parts that are transferable.

To those who argue that this will not work because the scope of flying jobs is so large, I disagree. Professional bodies that currently exist have smaller groups within the overall profession.

Nice thought, but you're using an example of a group that has 8-10 years of education. I know a 767 captain with grade 10! We don't have physicians paying huge bonds, living in the north, being forced by hospitals to preform operations in unsafe conditions. We're pilots. Not doctors. I'm a doctor Jim, not a magician! Take a long look at the people/workers who belong to a "college". All university educated, everyone. It's a requirement of their profession.
Illya

[CanadianEh]

Nice thought, but you're using an example of a group that has 8-10 years of education.

That is true, but that was the first one that came to mind there are other professional associations who have members that don't require 8-10 yrs of education. Like the College of Nurses for example. But this is what a College could do for us, have a baseline educational requirement among other things to keep the standards high.

Again, I don't know what the right answer is in all this, but I think looking at the professional governing bodies that exist and thrive today for other professions is a good place to start.

[DonutHole]

That's why I will never support the college.

Gilles just said for them what they won't.

The college has no intention to do anything other than limit cpls by taking over licensing and imposing their standards on perspective professional pilots. In other words..


This elitist organization only wants folks with degrees to fly airplanes.

There were threads upon threads about this, and in the beginning that was the platform. But they got massive blowback and went to a 'democratic' model... of course, if we look at the demographic this elitist organization seeks to serve it's obvious where the 'democratic process' will take the mandate.

If you do not have a degree, the college is your enemy.