AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!

[Cat Driver]

The wages that pilots make are determined by supply and demand.

The cost to become a pilot sure is not reflected in the earnings they can look forward to unless they get real lucky.

I wonder if there are forums where truck drivers salivate over bigger faster trucks and moan about how poorly they are paid?.

At least if they jump ship there is no issue with having to get a PPC.

[B-rad]

Ask half of the operators losing people to encore. If you have 500 MPIC, and just accepted a job from encore chances are you going somewhere to be paid less and work more. But hey, its OK. It'll be a quick upgrade and I get to fly a dash-8.

Let's get real here, no one wants to work at Encore. They work there so they can get a foot in with WJ so they can get the 737 and *finally* start getting paid. The sacrifice is not as short sighted as leaving one job for the next, it's the end game they are chasing due to suffering through the rest of the career with shitty wages! I really can't believe people even go to Encore with the crap they pay but so many people are willing to take a little more abuse because they can see the light. It's the boiling frog and no one can see it!

[B-rad]

Cat,

there was a day and age of the legacy Pilot that built up a great image. One where Pilots made great wages, has great schedules, traveled the world with great layover to times to explore with, were respected, and considered the creme of the crop. Think Catch me if you can with Leonardo DiCaprio, who wouldn't want to be that legacy Pilot? Once an image is in a culture it is almost as good as a reality. Look at how well WestJet has build up their brand and image, people believe them to be a company that cares about people but what they really care about is your money and they want as much of it as they can get. There is nothing special about WJ aside from being effective at delivering a service that gets you to hand over your money. So by the same account there is a great Pilot image that people chase even tho is doesn't exist anymore. It's a fantasy that people are chasing that was put in their heads long ago and now conditions have changed but no one wants to give up on life dreams. So here is where it doesn't add up because what price are you willing to accept to reach your dreams when thats what life is all about isn't it?

[cap41]

Amazing!! Employees wouldn't walk away from a job if they were paid what they are worth to begin with after they spent all that time and money getting their licence.

If you don't think the pay is adequate DONT take the job. Recently, I found out a person in a similar role to me was making 10K more per year. I wasn't mad at the company. I was mad at myself for not negotiating more. If you can't make a living on the job in front of you. Don't take it. But, don't accept the job offer and than bitch about not being paid appropriately.

The fact is, its market driven. If there is a line up behind you for the job. It is probably paying what the pilot is worth.

Bitching about what you had to pay for, for your education makes no sense at all. I didn't go to my first job fresh out of school and said your not paying enough i just finished 4 years of university. I took a job to gain experience to eventually get a higher paying job.

You goto school to get into a profession. Law school, medical school, business school, flight school. So far the only industry I see with the sense of entitlement is aviation. I paid XXX for my education, you owe me more. That is a complete bowl of crap. Look in the mirror and blame yourself for your situation. No business or government owe you a cent for what you spent on your education.

If things are so bad, start up a company. invest in equipment, lease property, pay all the taxes. Than pay your employees the inflated amount you think they are worth.

But, if you owned a business, you would pay as little as possible. Because, as like all pilots, companies are in the business to make as much money as they can. It's their prerogative to set a salary, than its yours to turn that salary down if you think its not worth it. Go find a job that pays you enough to live on. If you have no other skills except to fly. Well that was a silly mistake made by you again. Not to hedge your future with a more versatile education.

Don't cry and bitch over salary when you choose this industry. People told me from the beginning the outlook and lifestyle of a pilot. No one enters this industry blind.

[Cat Driver]

Cat,

there was a day and age of the legacy Pilot that built up a great image. One where Pilots made great wages, has great schedules, traveled the world with great layover to times to explore with, were respected, and considered the creme of the crop. Think Catch me if you can with Leonardo DiCaprio, who wouldn't want to be that legacy Pilot? Once an image is in a culture it is almost as good as a reality. Look at how well WestJet has build up their brand and image, people believe them to be a company that cares about people but what they really care about is your money and they want as much of it as they can get. There is nothing special about WJ aside from being effective at delivering a service that gets you to hand over your money. So by the same account there is a great Pilot image that people chase even tho is doesn't exist anymore. It's a fantasy that people are chasing that was put in their heads long ago and now conditions have changed but no one wants to give up on life dreams. So here is where it doesn't add up because what price are you willing to accept to reach your dreams when thats what life is all about isn't it?

That day seems to be gone forever.

When I started my first choice was to fly for the military but it was the wrong place and the wrong time for me.

So I chose crop dusting and from there chose flying that was similar such as fire bombing.....that gave me pay that was equal to what I would have made flying for an airline, which I eventually did on and off for some number of years. I found airline flying to be like paint by numbers as far as the actual flying went and also just plain boring.

In today's world not much has really changed because there are still flying jobs out there that pay well because they are specialized or in areas of the world where a lot of people don"t want to fly.

For instance flying a Twin Otter in the Arctic is far more fun than watching the magenta line.

You are correct about airline flying though...it is not what it used to be.

If I were starting again I would only fly helicopters and forget fixed wing except to go from A to B.

After almost ten years of retirement I am going back flying.....because I have another chance to fly helicopters.....so it is never to late to make a good decision.

[B-rad]

Just so we are clear Cap41, I've never signed a bond and love the pay and conditions that come with my job. I'm not going anywhere and I'm not bitching about my position at all but taking a side for improving the industry for everyone. I live the saying be the change you want to see in the world. I turn down jobs that pay garbage and give "better" time in the log book so I'm not adding to the problem of lowering the bar and I am loyal to my employer but don't owe them anything. That doesn't mean I think everything's great in the industry just because I have it great.

If companies want to make as much money as they can and pay crap, then they shouldn't have an issue when people don't want to stick around. If you treat people good they will treat you good, otherwise use and be used.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Amazing!! There wouldn't be bonds in the first place if all pilots had integrity and didn't walk away from their commitment when a better job came along after the company spent all the time and money training them.
And Illya the next time you apply for a job you should use your Avcanada pseudonym along with copies of your postings. See if you get hired

Well Wyatt, I've never left a company high and dry, if that what you're insinuating? And, my employer is well aware of my activities on this board. I've hired pilots I've "met" on this board. I'm not real worried about getting jobs.
Now, if it were up to me (and it isn't) there would be no bonds. There would be thorough interviews and reference checks. The guys I hired would stick around because they want to, not because of a signed piece of paper. If this makes me somebody you want to shit on, have at it. I don't suffer fools lightly. If this bothers you, I just don't care.
Illya

[Dockjock]

Just to clarify my understanding of the original post- another operator advertised a position at a higher salary, attracted your pilot, and you whine that this is why we have bonds. Welcome to the terror dome buddy, you're going to have to work a tad harder than $35K (which isn't that bad compared to many other copilot jobs I'll admit) to keep pilots at your company from now on. $35k is secretary pay, not pilot. Don't like it, raise your fares, raise your charter rates. The low end of this industry is total dogshit. I'm not so ignorant to say that operators are making tons of money, but that's just the problem. Fares are too low, rates are low, and pay is too low. It's sad that the first place most charter companies think to find money is in the pilots' pockets, not the customers. Frankly it's too easy to start an airline around here anyway. Buy some crappy king air, operate on a shoestring and cut prices such that the legitimate companies can't make money. Fail, repeat. If half the small charter companies in this country went out of business it would be a good thing. A mom-and-pop with a trailer for an office has no business operating an aircraft.
Having ranted all that, pilot training is not cheap and I don't blame companies for wanting to find a way to ensure that the investment has a chance to amortize over a certain period of time. A retention bonus is basically he same thing as a bond, accomplishes the same thing, but it sounds a lot better.
And why the hate for airline flying? I think you'll find that there are a few pretty good airlines in this country. The job is what you make it, so many pilots spent so many years being pissed at the world (in many cases rightfully so) that 10 years into their airline career they forget to stop and notice how good they actually have it. I've had my fill of bitter 30-something's making $100K-plus whining about how terrible their life is.

[Wyatt Earp]

Illya
You sound like you are bitter. Not so sure I would want to be a passenger in your plane when you are pilot in command. It might affect your ability to fly the plane if something were to go wrong.

[Cat Driver]

Illya
You sound like you are bitter. Not so sure I would want to be a passenger in your plane when you are pilot in command. It might affect your ability to fly the plane if something were to go wrong.

You should let his employer know about your concerns, they may decide to get rid of him and hire you to improve the safety of their operation.

[cap41]

Just so we are clear Cap41, I've never signed a bond and love the pay and conditions that come with my job. I'm not going anywhere and I'm not bitching about my position at all but taking a side for improving the industry for everyone. I live the saying be the change you want to see in the world. I turn down jobs that pay garbage and give "better" time in the log book so I'm not adding to the problem of lowering the bar and I am loyal to my employer but don't owe them anything. That doesn't mean I think everything's great in the industry just because I have it great.

If companies want to make as much money as they can and pay crap, then they shouldn't have an issue when people don't want to stick around. If you treat people good they will treat you good, otherwise use and be used.

I agree 100%. If your not happy feel free to quit and pursue a different job.

I'm just saying don't have a sense of entitlement because you spent XXX amount of dollars on an education. Employers are free to offer what they want, employees are free to look for a better job. Nothing wrong with leaving a place for a better life, or career advancement.

[Nark]

After almost ten years of retirement I am going back flying.....because I have another chance to fly helicopters.....so it is never to late to make a good decision.

We have to keep this in context. Not everyone is skilled enough to fly helicopters.

[B-rad]

After almost ten years of retirement I am going back flying.....because I have another chance to fly helicopters.

What kind of bond are you having to sign Cat? haha

[Cat Driver]

But the effort one puts into learning to fly helicopters is well worth it in the end.

When you going to be in this area again Nark, I am still living in the same house.

[Cat Driver]

What kind of bond are you having to sign Cat? haha

_________________

I am a partner in the Company that is buying it so no bond needed because it is unlikely anyone will offer me a better deal.

[ahramin]

I attempted to negotiate a bond once as I really wanted to join a company but couldn't accept the bond under the typical conditions we see in this industry (indentured servitude). After a month of going back and forth of me offering to sign the bond if the company would sign certain guarantees in return, the company finally just dropped the bond requirement rather than accept something as simple as writing down the wages and limiting the days of work to what they had already verbally assured me they would be.

If a company wants you bad enough, they'll drop the bond, but they sure as heck aren't going negotiate a two way agreement.

[PointyEngine]

I think it would be entertaining for people to upload anonymised .pdf's of bonds for various types / companies and play "match the maker". Really get some discussion flowing!

[Liquid Charlie]

Maybe if Canada followed suit and increased the requirements for licensing and required an ATP for right seat of 705 and high performance aircraft in 704 there would be no necessity for bonds and salaries would have to go up due to supply and demand --- it would also mean that 703 operators would keep the new people for that critical time building period of the first 2 or 3 years of their careers since they would be unable to play chase the iron and it would be strictly working conditions that would be the driving factor -- just sayin --

BTW one of the most disturbing trends is for companies to initiate bonds for and type change after being employed at that company and completing obligations for the initial equipment -- fight that one since I believe it could be deemed illegal - there certain should be a no brainer for moving on -- wtf -----

[Marinth]

Offer a mildly higher salary and get people to jump ship so you don't have to swallow the cost of a PPC.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =7&t=99898

We have bonds because, god forbid, some companies are willing to pay $11,000 a year more than the guys next door. How dare pilots want to earn a liveable wage in Calgary!

Marinth,

Would they pay they pay the same wage if they had to foot the bill for training? I sincerely doubt that.

IFlyforpie,

Obviously this company is NOT building cost of training into their business costs and expecting someone else who does, to foot the bill for training at a cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of $20k. Then when a "poor" f/o who has nothing vested into the company or training but lots vested into their debt of a CPL-MIFR, of course they would jump ship immediately for an extra $11k. Pilots have less morals, than 'most' companies. Don't kid yourself. And that my friend, is who respectable company's need to protect themselves from.

BL

That same company right next door that's paying $11,000 a year less would step over their dying grandmothers for someone with a current ppc, so if anything, companies in general should stop the hypocritical practice of hiring ppc'd individuals, but they aren't going to do that any time soon. So, if you want to get the most out of your investment, then be prepared to pay market value(or more) in order to keep you employees around. Don't try to force them into a position where they HAVE to stay, or they will be financially ruined.

[Donald]

I've never left a company high and dry, if that what you're insinuating?

I did a gig on a 73 for a while. After 7 months of living out of a suitcase, I bailed. Happy as a clam wher I am. Home every night. No weekends. Four days is a heavy week. Know all our pax personally. Not your average op,,
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

I've never left a company high and dry, if that what you're insinuating?

I did a gig on a 73 for a while. After 7 months of living out of a suitcase, I bailed. Happy as a clam wher I am. Home every night. No weekends. Four days is a heavy week. Know all our pax personally. Not your average op,,
Illya

The company went under Donald, what exactly is your point? You have no details. You know nothing about the situation. I'd be happy to fill you in via PM, but it would appear you're too Childish to use that feature on the board. People leave for many reasons. I left to devote time to a family member with cancer. We shock hands with no hard feelings. The company went under a few months later. Since you've decided to "call me out" on open forum, I expect an apology on open forum as well. Everybody you know is fighting battles that you know nothing about.
Illya

[cncpc]

I never did understand why PPC's are transferable. A significant part of the PPC process is supposed to be learning the management structure and processes, dispatch and reporting procedures, maintenance systems and processes. training requirements, SOP's, company checklists etc etc.

Going to a new company necessarily means that all of the above are going to be different. It seems reasonable to me that the new company be required to demonstrate how their training system will ensure the new hire gets the requisite knowledge and skills to operate the aircraft properly by redoing the PPC so it now valid for that company

Any company that can't demonstrate they have that capability can't hire any new pilots. This would instantly end poaching by companies that expect others to do the training they are too cheap or incompetent to do themselves.

It is the transportability of PPC's that is at the heart of all this, BPF. If the PPC is owned by the carrier, and valid only in the carrier's aircraft, then stealing what is essentially another company's investment will not be enabled by Transport Canada.

That is not to say that making that simple change will stop pilots jumping ship after training, but they won't be able to get preferential hiring on the back of a qualification invested in by a carrier as part of that carrier's business.

I started out in this thread to say, for what its worth, that the URL www.flyaac.ca is a parked domain. Read into that what you want. If you want to make sure you aren't sending your resume into a trap set by some folks to gather up a large list of names of potential ship jumpers for companies that might be interested in that list, you or someone you know in Calgary should take a ramble down to Millionaire to see what Albatross Aircraft is and have a look at all those airplanes.

If they have all that iron and all that flying to do, you'd think they'd not have a banjaxed web site.

But maybe not.

Many training bonds are not legal, and come close to being a form of indentured servitude.
However, nobody has a "right" to training and companies have a right to ensure their investment does not have legs. Transport could go a long way to stop some companies thieving the investment of others to remove the PPC from the licence and change it to a separate document, like a PCC, that must be carried while flying but is the property of the issuing company, and clearly marked as so, and has no validity elsewhere.

Think about it this way if you're thinking of putting your resume into what may be a trap...

If a company is willing to steal someone else's investment, what might it steal from you?

[cncpc]

I attempted to negotiate a bond once as I really wanted to join a company but couldn't accept the bond under the typical conditions we see in this industry (indentured servitude). After a month of going back and forth of me offering to sign the bond if the company would sign certain guarantees in return, the company finally just dropped the bond requirement rather than accept something as simple as writing down the wages and limiting the days of work to what they had already verbally assured me they would be.

If a company wants you bad enough, they'll drop the bond, but they sure as heck aren't going negotiate a two way agreement.

Exactly. If you're a good pilot and your skills are really wanted by the company, the bond requirement will go away.

[Cat Driver]

Or better still why not go back to the days when there was only the the pilot license and when you were hired the chief pilot in the company made the decision if you were competent to fly the airplane?

The PPC is just another make work project for the drones in T. C.

[cncpc]

Or better still why not go back to the days when there was only the the pilot license and when you were hired the chief pilot in the company made the decision if you were competent to fly the airplane?

I think that's still good enough for insurance companies.