The F-35 is not dead

[Big Pistons Forever]

So, you are arguing we shouldn't buy the JSF because of unproven tech (by the way most is at this point, it's a matter of integration), by arguing we should buy a less capable aircraft that will be obsolete in 15 years tops based on unsolicites, undesigned technology? See the irony here?

Yes I think we buy a proven cost controlled interim fighter like the Super Hornet with the understanding that it will be obsolete before it is worn out.

I think we are at a technological inflection point, like what happened to fighter aircraft when reliable jet engines were perfected. Look at how fast that technology changed tactical air effects.

Military leadership has almost always been slow to recognize the impact of technological change and the Military Industrial complex has a lot of vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

I suggest it is time for the fighter community to think about how much technological SA they need to make effective recommendations to senior Military and Political leadership.

[AuxBatOn]

Technological SA? Are you for real?

[trampbike]

[
With the greatest respect I think you missed my point. I never said airplanes would become obsolete, I just said airplanes with pilots in them will become obsolete.

You obviously missed mine... My point was that predicting the future is generally completely useless.

[Rockie]

The first coffins in Canadian conflicts are always a result of playing catch up in kit, due to small dicked politics lack of brains and will.

Not true. Inexperience, inferior tactics, inferior intelligence and a misuse of the capability you have are bigger factors in my mind. After all, how is it unsophisticated guerilla fighters with nothing more than ancient AK-47's and home made bombs can be so effective? Using a military for unrealistic strategic and tactical goals given whatever personnel and equipment limitations you have are what gets people killed the most, and are almost exclusively the result of ill-advised political decisions.

Canada cannot afford F-35's - period. We have a massive coast line much of which is iced up part of the year, and a Navy about to sink while tied to the dock. We have ground troops that need proper equipment, effective support from the other services and tasking commensurate with their capabilities. We have vast airspace that simply does not need stealth technology to defend. What we need are capable airplanes affordable in greater numbers that have the reliability and redundancy to recover back to base when things go wrong. Yes - that means two engines.

[AuxBatOn]

Rockie,

What can we afford then?

[Rockie]

Entire government ministries will try to answer that question.

[trampbike]

Will they?
It looks to me that saying ahead of time that they WILL NOT pick the F-35 isn't the best move when it comes to transparency and good procurement process.

[Gannet167]

Afford is a relative term. Canada spends virtually nothing on its military, about 1.0% of GDP. Of NATO countries, Canada spends less of its GDP than most other nations: http://www.cips-cepi.ca/2014/05/09/is-c ... t-in-nato/

We're #80 out of 132 countries in terms of % GDP, and yet in the top 7 richest economies in the world. https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 4rank.html

Out of 28 NATO member nations, in 2014 only Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Hungary and Spain spend less as a % than we do. Portugal manages to spend 1.3% on defence..... Portugal!

This 2015 projection isn't much better:

http://www.cips-cepi.ca/2015/09/24/cana ... to-target/

Considering the immense size and wealth of Canada's economy, you might look at actual dollar figures. The tiny Netherlands' defence budget is more than half of Canada's. Spain and Turkey spend about 2/3 of what we do. Lousy Italy, bankrupt, small and as safe as they are far out spends Canada. France spends almost THREE times what we spend. Looking at manpower, Romania has about as many military members as Canada does.
http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/ ... 093-v2.pdf

Here's a nice graphic

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ampp3d/nat ... ng-4156751

NATO's target defense budget is a very modest 2% of GDP. We are spending less than half. Keeping in mind that we're a rich nation, a member of the G7 group of largest economies in the world, and the size of our nation and our history of being involved in world affairs, the current budget is a joke. When you start out with a tiny budget, and propose increasing it modestly to even be on average with what other nations do, I wouldn't call that unaffordable.

"Canada’s engagement is so low that today it meets the statistical definition of an international ‘free rider."


https://www.opencanada.org/features/can ... ement-gap/

[B208]

Guns or butter; Our people consistently vote for butter.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

deleted

[AuxBatOn]

We bought the radars, not the missiles. It is actually in the first sentence of the article.... Trying to sensionalize again Gilles?

[Old fella]

The current Trudeau Government with it's new four year mandate will not sign any agreement to buy the F-35.

[Rockie]

I'm a little confused. Having an extremely capable radar system to detect any and all airborne threats is better than not having one I guess, but then what? Without anything to throw at the threat all you're left with is crouching down and hiding under your Captain America shield.

What exactly did the Conservatives have in mind for an airborne threat detector with no corresponding anti-threat weapon?

[AuxBatOn]

Point defense. Supplemented by air.

[Rockie]

Point defense.

Yeah I get that but without a corresponding missile it's not defense, it's nothing more than detection which by itself is pretty much useless. Is it compatible and intended to upgrade systems already in the inventory?

[AuxBatOn]

Just a guess, but I think it's to fill surveillance gaps for very specific events that require protection, with jets to act in need. Like the Olympics, the G7/G8, etc

[2R]

32 billion litres of raw sewage into the St. Lawrence waters ,How is that for a REAL change

If you still believe what a Politician says to get elected, is what they will do after they get elected ,I have a bridge to sell you

[Rockie]

32 billion litres of raw sewage into the St. Lawrence waters ,How is that for a REAL change

If you still believe what a Politician says to get elected, is what they will do after they get elected ,I have a bridge to sell you

Gotta admit I don't see any connection or political flip/flop in either the sewage or F-35 issue. In both cases Denis Coderre and the Federal Liberals are doing exactly what they said they would do. Am I missing something?

[bizjets101]

The current Trudeau Government with it's new four year mandate will not sign any agreement to buy the F-35.

Agree -- except it's a five year mandate

[2R]

The new guys were blaming the Tories for bad environmental management and the Liberals promised could and would do better, even inviting the green party member to Paris. They must have been laughing behind closed doors at that one .
Then they allowed , what the previous government stopped a dumping of 32 billion litres of sewage.
If the previous Government had allowed the release the media would have been screaming ,and perhaps you would not have missed the third promise broken.
After the recent Paris events "all bets will be off " a term used by Bookies when they close the book on bets when event beyond their control occur.

I have some bad news for you there is no tooth fairy

We need to buy what works now. What works is TWO engines. What is available is the Super Hornet.
It would make the easiest transition and in the hands of well trained pilots with the confidence in their machine, and the will to fight to defend their country .It will work.
A Super Hornet further modified in ways I will not discuss on a public forum would keep Canada safe.
You need two engines in the vast distances between airports in Canada. Since these planes are meant to Defend Canada they should have the 'range of reliability' that is required when airports and secure facilities are so spread out and scarce.
You need two engines in the "FUR BALL" they tell me , Single engine fighters are at a distinctive disadvantage against the twin engine fighters. Something to do with energy management ? They tell me.

The Super Hornet has proved itself ,until such times as the F-35 can prove itself any of the sales bovine excrement should not be taken as the gospel.
The vast distances between scarce secure safe facilities make a twin engine necessary not a luxury.

[frosti]

We should retrofit a new Superhornet with 4 engines, because you know, we need that 'we are "special" Canadians with unique snowflake requirements'. The US, Norway and Sweden all use obsolete single-engine fighters in the Arctic. We aren't special, we aren't unique, we don't need two engines that doubles the cost and maintenance of a fighter jet. Remember when only 4 engines was acceptable to cross the Atlantic? Get on with the times.

[bizjets101]

When all you have left is to attack a poster personally not only is your
argument lost - a nice ban from AvCanada sounds more fitting.

[Confliction]

Alaska, Norway, and Sweden combined are only about the size of Nunavut.

[Old fella]

The current Trudeau Government with it's new four year mandate will not sign any agreement to buy the F-35.

Agree -- except it's a five year mandate

Yes, you are correct in that Parliament has to be dissolved after 5 yrs. However, the governing party going that distance did so at their peril, of note Grits 1979 and PC 1993.

[frosti]

Advocating two engines simply due to a illusion of "flying up north" shows just how little one knows of the subject. Almost no one understands what the RCAF actually does, and some, even when explained what actually happens, still go on about it. The Canadian public really is stupid on this subject and has no say one way or the other. People will just move on to other reasons they feel the F-35 doesn't work. This upcoming competition really is just another dog and pony show for the Canadian CBC-watching public. This new government is so full of shit on the Superhornet example in their platform, saying that we can get an SH at 80 cents on the dollar which translates to 52 million a pop Canadian. These are all blatant lies. Joe Public dummy Canada who has zero knowledge of fighters will of course eat this up.