Negotiations

[kiaszceski]

Jazz needs to take both CA and FO rates and just drop the year 1-5 numbers. Old year 6 = new year 1. That leaves a 7 year FO scale and a 12 year CA scale. Even better would be to take the 2025 rates for the purpose of this ‘adjustment’ and make it effective in 2023 (now).

Even this will barely be competitive with the other offers that are out there.

Rudder, you and I know that will never happen until Jazz is shrunk to the right size, and with PAL taking over for the far east routes and YYC getting less and less flying, once we get to 80 tails we'll probably see a raise that will be just enough. While others will start paying decent wages.

Choose your side, I heard Porter is a nice place if one lives in GTA.

Jazz isn’t even putting up a fight. Trying to take a 2015 pay scale and put it up against 2023 reality.

Indeed and I'm guessing it is what they want. They know AC will probably shrink the Jazz flying and we can also see it in YVR since they are giving most of the RJ flying to the 737.

[rudder]

Indeed and I'm guessing it is what they want. They know AC will probably shrink the Jazz flying and we can also see it in YVR since they are giving most of the RJ flying to the 737.

I could see - minus 15 CRJ200/ minus 5 CRJ900 (Skywest tails)/ minus 5 Q400 (PAL) happening over next 12 months.

That would leave a fleet of 88 76-78 seaters operated at Jazz. Further reductions could be older CRJ900’s or the 10 leased E175’s.

Smaller is coming. Sooner rather than later. AC has a plan for 60 A220’s by 2026 and 6000 mainline pilots to staff them. Won’t leave much for the Express side of things other than short haul domestic and flights to secondary US destinations.

Might keep a couple CRJ200’s on the AOC as one of the two CDN based CRJ simulators is CRJ200 configuration only. However, once you get a fleet type down to just 25 airframes, you only need one simulator to sustain staffing.

[Nick678]

Reductions all across the west, PAL out east. 220’s on order. The future of Jazz is bleak.

The closest thing we have to compare ourselves to is encore, they got a marginal wage increase and is still a shell of what it used to be.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Reductions all across the west, PAL out east. 220’s on order. The future of Jazz is bleak.

The closest thing we have to compare ourselves to is encore, they got a marginal wage increase and is still a shell of what it used to be.

A shell? Encore? It always was a shell for WJ but make no mistake, it was always a pig with a thread bear amount of lipstick…

[hsilgnepilot]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

[truedude]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

Still nothing officially signed with PAL as far as I am aware. And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

I see PAL was looking for pilots... is it possible they don't actually have the staff for this either?

[Tbayer2021]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

Still nothing officially signed with PAL as far as I am aware. And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

I see PAL was looking for pilots... is it possible they don't actually have the staff for this either?

I find it amazing that you're in the middle of the tracks, seeing the train barreling towards you and you're still in denial.

[truedude]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

Still nothing officially signed with PAL as far as I am aware. And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

I see PAL was looking for pilots... is it possible they don't actually have the staff for this either?

I find it amazing that you're in the middle of the tracks, seeing the train barreling towards you and you're still in denial.

I'm not in denial. I just know this is a major contract violation, one with more teeth than them violating flow.

[flyinhigh]

Still nothing officially signed with PAL as far as I am aware. And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

I see PAL was looking for pilots... is it possible they don't actually have the staff for this either?

I find it amazing that you're in the middle of the tracks, seeing the train barreling towards you and you're still in denial.

I'm not in denial. I just know this is a major contract violation, one with more teeth than them violating flow.

What’s specifically has Jazz violated in your Contract? Have they officially reduced the fleet?

Air Canada might be in violation with chorus, but they don’t have the balls to fight for what is there’s.

[truedude]

I find it amazing that you're in the middle of the tracks, seeing the train barreling towards you and you're still in denial.

I'm not in denial. I just know this is a major contract violation, one with more teeth than them violating flow.

What’s specifically has Jazz violated in your Contract? Have they officially reduced the fleet?

Air Canada might be in violation with chorus, but they don’t have the balls to fight for what is there’s.

The CPA is with Jazz, not Chorus. There are minimum block hours that must be met annually. There is leave to reduce them due to economic hardship, but not because they can't staff the flying.

So that is one.

Could argue this is a transfer of work, which federal law provides protection for.

There are a lot of arguments that can be made.

Could argue Jazz allowing them to violate the CPA without push back is an attempt to end round a labour groups collective agreement and bargaining agent.

Lots of arguments could be made... what sticks, no idea. What I do know, is that there will be more than 6 airplanes worth of pilots running for the exit now.

Could also possibly have both the CEO of Chours and AC investigated for security violations for making intentionally misleading or inaccurate statements on an earnings call.

[GIVCE!]

Now that I like…RdG is trying to pull a fast one here…

[Radiocaster]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

AC is going from 4 flights daily between YHZ and YYT to 6. Those two extras are going to PAL

[truedude]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

AC is going from 4 flights daily between YHZ and YYT to 6. Those two extras are going to PAL

I hear they are looking for pilots...

[rudder]

Originally, I thought previous (and current) negotiations might be protracted due to the complicated nature of the subject matter (potentially to include CPA amendments) and possible third and fourth party issues (AC and the AC pilots).

Now I have begun to realize that the the negotiations have been and will likely continue to consume time with no agreed outcome as the scope of the subject matter either exceeds the willingness of one or more of the parties to accept reality and alter previous plans, or that the parties to the discussion are incapable of agreeing to an effective response to external events and a changing industry.

Either way, more damage is done every day with resignations and empty GS seats. Nobody should take pride in the impact that this stalemate is having on performance and employment security. It does not signal strength. It signals ineptitude. There may well be a point of no return on the not too distant horizon.

The Jazz CBA has proved a poor last line of defence. And the CHR CPA appears to be under duress. If that isn’t enough motivation for the parties to move then nothing will be.

[mmm..bacon]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

AC is going from 4 flights daily between YHZ and YYT to 6. Those two extras are going to PAL

I hear they are looking for pilots...

So, what does PAL pay? - in this market, that will determine whether they can put pilots in the front seats..

[CaptDukeNukem]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

Still nothing officially signed with PAL as far as I am aware. And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

I see PAL was looking for pilots... is it possible they don't actually have the staff for this either?

Man…. AC is literally selling seats on PAL aircraft. There’s something signed. It’s a done deal

[truedude]

“Air Canada Express - PAL Airlines”

Two daily YYT-YHZ round trip on PAL effective 01Jul, two on Jazz also.

I’d expect the entire domestic Atlantic Canada Q400 operation to shift to PAL in the coming months, and YHZ-BOS/EWR to go on the CR9/E75.

Still nothing officially signed with PAL as far as I am aware. And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

I see PAL was looking for pilots... is it possible they don't actually have the staff for this either?

Man…. AC is literally selling seats on PAL aircraft. There’s something signed. It’s a done deal

They are selling seats on flights intentented to be flown by PAL. Nothing is signed yet.

[Fanblade]

Originally, I thought previous (and current) negotiations might be protracted due to the complicated nature of the subject matter (potentially to include CPA amendments) and possible third and fourth party issues (AC and the AC pilots).

Now I have begun to realize that the the negotiations have been and will likely continue to consume time with no agreed outcome as the scope of the subject matter either exceeds the willingness of one or more of the parties to accept reality and alter previous plans, or that the parties to the discussion are incapable of agreeing to an effective response to external events and a changing industry.

Either way, more damage is done every day with resignations and empty GS seats. Nobody should take pride in the impact that this stalemate is having on performance and employment security. It does not signal strength. It signals ineptitude. There may well be a point of no return on the not too distant horizon.

The Jazz CBA has proved a poor last line of defence. And the CHR CPA appears to be under duress. If that isn’t enough motivation for the parties to move then nothing will be.

Hold fast.

Only they know where the line in the sand is. They won’t destroy Jazz. They do however want you to think that the destruction of Jazz is imminent and fully within your control if you follow a certain trajectory.

They have placed you on a fabricated burning platform to encourage this trajectory.

The inevitable shrinkage of Jazz because of the pilot shortage/upguaging has given them time to let the platform burn.

https://oboloo.com/blog/what-is-a-burni ... -business/

[hsilgnepilot]

Still nothing officially signed with PAL as far as I am aware. And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

I see PAL was looking for pilots... is it possible they don't actually have the staff for this either?

Man…. AC is literally selling seats on PAL aircraft. There’s something signed. It’s a done deal

They are selling seats on flights intentented to be flown by PAL. Nothing is signed yet.

Only for the first two weeks of July is it 6 daily, and I would expect that is because schedules and bid packs were already finalized; I also wouldn’t be shocked to see further schedule changes.

After that, it’s 4 daily - two PAL, two Jazz. PAL is not providing “extra lift”, it’s apparent that the plan is to shift the Atlantic Canada Q flying to them. It doesn’t happen overnight.

[truedude]

Man…. AC is literally selling seats on PAL aircraft. There’s something signed. It’s a done deal

They are selling seats on flights intentented to be flown by PAL. Nothing is signed yet.

Only for the first two weeks of July is it 6 daily, and I would expect that is because schedules and bid packs were already finalized; I also wouldn’t be shocked to see further schedule changes.

After that, it’s 4 daily - two PAL, two Jazz. PAL is not providing “extra lift”, it’s apparent that the plan is to shift the Atlantic Canada Q flying to them. It doesn’t happen overnight.

I don't think there is any plan to shift the flying to PAL. This is a stop gap measure and a negotiating tactic. It is standard AC to try and have a group negotiate from a position of perceived weakness. PAL won't beable to scale.

Fanblade is right about what all this is. They want us to feel scared, and I'm not. They can burn it to the ground if they want, but they will feel the heat as they do.

[rudder]

Hold fast.

Only they know where the line in the sand is. They won’t destroy Jazz. They do however want you to think that the destruction of Jazz is imminent and fully within your control if you follow a certain trajectory.

They have placed you on a fabricated burning platform to encourage this trajectory.

The inevitable shrinkage of Jazz because of the pilot shortage/upguaging has given them time to let the platform burn.

https://oboloo.com/blog/what-is-a-burni ... -business/

Hold on to what?

The lowest 705 starting pay in Canada?

A mediocre new-hire matching MP pension?

Deficient overrides for (most) training pilots?

A 5-10% flow agreement (which is supposed to be 60%) ?

This isn’t some round of concessionary bargaining due to bankruptcy or recession, it is mid term bargaining about the degree to which the aforementioned areas must be enhanced in order to improve pilot recruitment and retention in order to meet block hour obligations under the CPA. However, the default is status quo. That has been the only result thus far of discussions that have been off and on since last October.

As was the case with the failed MOA at AC, it is the EMPLOYER that must see the impact of the CBA deficiencies and be prepared to act independent of the expiry of the current CBA. However, the AC pilots have the good fortune of an early opener. The Jazz pilots do not. Jazz pilot leverage comes from resignation or finding a comfortable lawn chair to enjoy this summer. Little more. And the response thus far has been the PAL announcement. Burning platform? Sure. But it doesn’t take a genius to realize that status quo is untenable. AC seems willing to migrate to a contingency plan if necessary.

AC pilots (generally) do not resign from AC to demonstrate a lack of confidence in their employer and the associated business. But that is what is happening at Jazz. Even an improved CBA will not bring a single one of those pilots back.

Rejecting bad proposals is the easy part of representation. Developing and advocating for more effective alternatives is the hard part.

Holding fast to status quo at Jazz would be at best a Pyrrhic victory for the pilots and a straight jacket for the employer. Neither party can sell their constituents on the notion that status quo is an acceptable outcome.

[truedude]

Hold fast.

Only they know where the line in the sand is. They won’t destroy Jazz. They do however want you to think that the destruction of Jazz is imminent and fully within your control if you follow a certain trajectory.

They have placed you on a fabricated burning platform to encourage this trajectory.

The inevitable shrinkage of Jazz because of the pilot shortage/upguaging has given them time to let the platform burn.

https://oboloo.com/blog/what-is-a-burni ... -business/

Hold on to what?

The lowest 705 starting pay in Canada?

A mediocre new-hire matching MP pension?

Deficient overrides for (most) training pilots?

A 5-10% flow agreement (which is supposed to be 60%) ?

This isn’t some round of concessionary bargaining due to bankruptcy or recession, it is mid term bargaining about the degree to which the aforementioned areas must be enhanced in order to improve pilot recruitment and retention in order to meet block hour obligations under the CPA. However, the default is status quo. That has been the only result thus far of discussions that have been off and on since last October.

As was the case with the failed MOA at AC, it is the EMPLOYER that must see the impact of the CBA deficiencies and be prepared to act independent of the expiry of the current CBA. However, the AC pilots have the good fortune of an early opener. The Jazz pilots do not. Jazz pilot leverage comes from resignation or finding a comfortable lawn chair to enjoy this summer. Little more. And the response thus far has been the PAL announcement. Burning platform? Sure. But it doesn’t take a genius to realize that status quo is untenable. AC seems willing to migrate to a contingency plan if necessary.

AC pilots (generally) do not resign from AC to demonstrate a lack of confidence in their employer and the associated business. But that is what is happening at Jazz. Even an improved CBA will not bring a single one of those pilots back.

Rejecting bad proposals is the easy part of representation. Developing and advocating for more effective alternatives is the hard part.

Holding fast to status quo at Jazz would be at best a Pyrrhic victory for the pilots and a straight jacket for the employer. Neither party can sell their constituents on the notion that status quo is an acceptable outcome.

He is supporting us. He is saying don't give in, and that they are just trying to scare us. Hold fast, and don't cave.

Like I have said, I'd gladly watch them burn the place to the ground than agree to a penny less than we are worth. And we are worth a lot more than they currently pay.

[Fanblade]

Hold fast.

Only they know where the line in the sand is. They won’t destroy Jazz. They do however want you to think that the destruction of Jazz is imminent and fully within your control if you follow a certain trajectory.

They have placed you on a fabricated burning platform to encourage this trajectory.

The inevitable shrinkage of Jazz because of the pilot shortage/upguaging has given them time to let the platform burn.

https://oboloo.com/blog/what-is-a-burni ... -business/

Hold on to what?

The lowest 705 starting pay in Canada?

A mediocre new-hire matching MP pension?

Deficient overrides for (most) training pilots?

A 5-10% flow agreement (which is supposed to be 60%) ?

This isn’t some round of concessionary bargaining due to bankruptcy or recession, it is mid term bargaining about the degree to which the aforementioned areas must be enhanced in order to improve pilot recruitment and retention in order to meet block hour obligations under the CPA. However, the default is status quo. That has been the only result thus far of discussions that have been off and on since last October.

As was the case with the failed MOA at AC, it is the EMPLOYER that must see the impact of the CBA deficiencies and be prepared to act independent of the expiry of the current CBA. However, the AC pilots have the good fortune of an early opener. The Jazz pilots do not. Jazz pilot leverage comes from resignation or finding a comfortable lawn chair to enjoy this summer. Little more. And the response thus far has been the PAL announcement. Burning platform? Sure. But it doesn’t take a genius to realize that status quo is untenable. AC seems willing to migrate to a contingency plan if necessary.

AC pilots (generally) do not resign from AC to demonstrate a lack of confidence in their employer and the associated business. But that is what is happening at Jazz. Even an improved CBA will not bring a single one of those pilots back.

Rejecting bad proposals is the easy part of representation. Developing and advocating for more effective alternatives is the hard part.

Holding fast to status quo at Jazz would be at best a Pyrrhic victory for the pilots and a straight jacket for the employer. Neither party can sell their constituents on the notion that status quo is an acceptable outcome.

He is supporting us. He is saying don't give in, and that they are just trying to scare us. Hold fast, and don't cave.

Like I have said, I'd gladly watch them burn the place to the ground than agree to a penny less than we are worth. And we are worth a lot more than they currently pay.

What truedude just said.

My apologies for my lack of clarity

[Turboprops]

And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

Lol the lawyer’s coming in to do what? They couldn’t even get their lawyers to get on the flow grievance till last second. And look at what’s happening to flow after the lawyers supposedly did something? Nothing

Everyone I talked to on the line has lost hope on what ALPA could accomplish to enforce the contract.

[truedude]

And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

Lol the lawyer’s coming in to do what? They couldn’t even get their lawyers to get on the flow grievance till last second. And look at what’s happening to flow after the lawyers supposedly did something? Nothing

Everyone I talked to on the line has lost hope on what ALPA could accomplish to enforce the contract.

What do you mean they didn't get on it until the last second? There was no expiry date to file that grievance. And now that it is, it will take time to work it's way through. Nothing happens overnight, particularly when you need to get a mediator to do it.

People have an unrealsitc expectation of how these things work, and how they play out. It isn't an episode of Law and Order.