Ice Pilots of NWT Series on History Channel this Fall!

[Siddley Hawker]

For what it's worth we never 3-pointed the DC-3, not even on skis. Land tail low, alright, but 3-point? We used to 3-point once in awhile just to prove we were real pilots though.

Hollinger Ungava Transport did the airlift that built the Quebec North Shore & Labrador Railway, from Sept-Iles to Schefferville. They said because of the orientation of the strips along the right-of-way they'd never have been able to do it without the crosswind gear on the 3. Go figure. It was the weirdest thing to taxi down the runway looking out the dv window with the gear in caster.

Good luck with your career Jeremy. 45 years ago I was doing what you're doing today.

[302sc]

I am glad you set the stage straight for all those who have commented on the show without realizing it is a fantasy for TV
I know where you are now and hope you get into a cockpit soon we crossed path in YHY as I was still there in the spring of 2009 flying tanker 02 til june 23th

lots of luck

[icepilotjeremy]

The DC-3 is designed to be wheel landed. The tail continues to fly at a very low airspeed, i.e. well below stall speed. Also the tailwheel is not designed to take the forces of a landing. It is meant to provide directional control until the rudder takes over. I dont mean to step on any toes here, it's just what I know about the DC-3.

[Doc]

So, when DID you do this 3 Point? ( High Winds, Right?)
See, that's my theory. Strong enough Wind, your gonns 3 Point. ( Maybe, say, Prop, Wheel, Wing...lol )
I say, you have Better Directional Control 3 Point ....

You're trolling, right?
Cross wind....wheel landing. Into wind wheel first. Always. No exceptions. Ever.

Like Cat, I've done very FEW three pointers in the Doug. Perhaps 3. And that was just for shits and giggles.

[Cat Driver]

It sure can get frustrating trying to give an opinion here and it inevitably leads to dick measuring.

So....once more to answer this.

STRONG enough wind, and you WILL 3 Point...

My experience flying tail wheel airplanes has taught me that the stronger the X/wind the more the need to wheel land the airplane to ensure better directional control.

If hours flying tail wheel airplanes is an indication of dick size then my dick is really big.

[g_goo_goo]

Hey Jeremy... just watched ep12. Glad you had a chance to do some flying.

I was just wondering... what's the pay like as a rampie up north? One ep you mentioned that renting in yellowknife is same price as renting in vancouver, how do you manage with such low pay?
What every happened to Raman, do you still keep in contact with him???

[Doc]

The DC-3 is designed to be wheel landed. The tail continues to fly at a very low airspeed, i.e. well below stall speed. Also the tailwheel is not designed to take the forces of a landing. It is meant to provide directional control until the rudder takes over. I dont mean to step on any toes here, it's just what I know about the DC-3.

No toes stepped on. You are correct. Now, go find yourself a cockpit, and leave the ramp for others. Seriously. Working the ramp any more for you, and you're swinging at windmills.

[Indanao]

So, when DID you do this 3 Point? ( High Winds, Right?)
See, that's my theory. Strong enough Wind, your gonns 3 Point. ( Maybe, say, Prop, Wheel, Wing...lol )
I say, you have Better Directional Control 3 Point ....

You're trolling, right?
Cross wind....wheel landing. Into wind wheel first. Always. No exceptions. Ever.

Like Cat, I've done very FEW three pointers in the Doug. Perhaps 3. And that was just for shits and giggles.

Not to mess with, " an old guy" but...i was Crop Spraying with a PA11, and the other Guy had an Aeronca Champ, with 60 gallon belly tanks. So, we start at 5 am and at 10 am the wind comes up. We land on gravel country roads, no room for error. He lands his with wheel landings, like a DC3. Me, 3 Point. I come in and his is rolled up in the Ditch. I flew mine the rest of the day and season. So...go figure.

[Doc]

If hours flying tail wheel airplanes is an indication of dick size then my dick is really big.

With your wee short legs, that must be very entertaining, indeed!

Seriously, if folks are telling you to land three point in a cross wind, run the other way! Do any of you, believers in three point landings, have any time at all in a large tail dragger?
The Racer's landing is VERY delicate when subjected to side loads. The trick to avoid side loads in a cross wind, is to "pin" one main, then as the aircraft slows, lower the other main. I can (and so can Cat) very happily motor along the entire length of the runway on one main, throw the coals to her, and take off again. The Doug has a great deal of dihedral.

[Cat Driver]

So, we start at 5 am and at 10 am the wind comes up. We land on gravel country roads, no room for error. He lands his with wheel landings, like a DC3. Me, 3 Point. I come in and his is rolled up in the Ditch. I flew mine the rest of the day and season. So...go figure.

That has to be the most astounding argument I have ever seen put forward to justify three pointing an airplane rather than wheel landing it.

I hope I keep living a lot longer because I learn something new every day.

By the way Indanao what year were you flying the PA11 off gravel roads?

[Doc]

Not to mess with, " an old guy" but...i was Crop Spraying with a PA11, and the other Guy had an Aeronca Champ, with 60 gallon belly tanks. So, we start at 5 am and at 10 am the wind comes up. We land on gravel country roads, no room for error. He lands his with wheel landings, like a DC3. Me, 3 Point. I come in and his is rolled up in the Ditch. I flew mine the rest of the day and season. So...go figure.

You got lucky. He didn't. But, the DC3 and a Champ are a wee bit different.
Can a Champ get in the air with a 60 tank? Know nothing about the PA11, but a Champ seems a bit under powered for that load? How's your insurance company feel about landing on the roads?

[Cat Driver]

Doc I would pay for the cost of rebuilding the machine to watch Indanao three point a Turbo Goose in a real strong X/wind on a paved runway.

[Cat Driver]

Now that this thread is truly off the rails lets all discuss X/wind landings in training aircraft with no brakes on the instructors side.

[Doc]

Doc I would pay for the cost of rebuilding the machine to watch Indanao three point a Turbo Goose in a real strong X/wind on a paved runway.

The longer the runway, the longer the entertainment will last!

[icepilotjeremy]

Well Doc, if you've got a bird for me, then tell me about it. So far my best estimates are for another year and a half on the ramp. Not gonna bitch though, I am working for a good company that treats me like a person. As for pay at places like Buffalo..... I've been breaking even for the last year and a half. I zero my bank account every month to pay my bills. Thank god I dont have any debt from school. I dont understand how those guys with debt do it.

[Cougar]

Now that this thread is truly off the rails lets all discuss X/wind landings in training aircraft with no brakes on the instructors side.

Okay, since we ARE completely off the rails, and maybe the runway, too, I need to know the Rules for this Instructor in said Right Seat.

Does the Instructor have:

1. My certificate in his shirt pocket??
2. A white cane stuffed behind the seat, with the seeing eye dog buckled into the jump seat??
3. His favorite hockey stick for swatting the left seater in a blind rage??
4. A loaded gun??

[Meatservo]

Boy, I am suddenly not sure I want to step into THIS breech but... I have met guys before who swear up and down they prefer to 3-point in a crosswind. Obviously, it's more aerodynamically correct to do a wheel landing. However, on slower, "floatier" aeroplanes, if you can get the thing stopped before it even gets to the ditch, maybe it doesn't matter if your landing was aerodynamically correct. I used to fly an Otter with a baron leading edge cuff. In high crosswinds, you could wheel-land the thing, which worked fine, OR, you could drag the bugger in at fourty knots, plant it right in the centre of the runway, hit the brakes and be stopped before it could even think about swerving. It just happens that at fourty knots the plane is already at a three-point attitude.

I would say that, with me at the controls, if I tried this stunt with a Twin Beech or a Cessna 185 or even a Beaver without the Baron kit, I'd be doomed. I've never flown a DC3 (to my everlasting sadness) so I can't really say but I suspect you'd be doomed on one of those too. But the technique just might work on little light aeroplanes where technique is less of a concern to you than just getting her on the ground and stopped. I'm not saying I consider it to be correct, but on smaller planes, and I guess baron-equipped otters, which fly like smaller planes, there is that train of thought out there. Also when you drag a light plane in slow, you can cut a bit of an angle into the wind and it lands so short it doesn't matter if you're pointing straight down the runway.

Again, I don't consider it to be correct, but it can be done. Indanao would be doomed with his technique in a turbo goose for sure, but on the planes he says he flies there's a certain validity to his idea. You can't paint all taildraggers with the same brush!

[canwhitewolf]

landing a Dc 3 three point is ridiculous, especially in a cross wind

[icepilotjeremy]

Yeah, you 3 point a dc-3 in a crosswind and you will blank the rudder and also stall the thing in.

[Indanao]

Gee Jeromy, this guy did it: http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/story?1220

[Arian17]

Hi Jeremy,
I'm from Germany, PPL student and I enjoy watching the show! Wasn't easy to find the episodes on the Internet though...

Questions:

-How did the filming and now airing of the show change daily life at Buffalos?
-Were many scenes staged and made-up for action or drama? Were there employes who did not want to be filmed and was it respected?
-How many cameramen were on site and have they been present all day long filming?
-Are all the DC3s and DC4s You mentioned earlier in airworthy condition or does Joe keep some for spares only?

You got some DC-3 flighttime in Your logbook...thats something incredible and fantastic in our days today!

[icepilotjeremy]

I would not dispute that short field landings in a taildragger are better accomplished with a three pointer, but man are you talkin about the hairy edge. Screw up just a little and you break your 3's back.... then you get to talk to Joe about why.

There were usually around 5 camera guys there, and they werent filming all the time, but they could be there at any time.... they had a list of things that directors were telling them needed to be filmed, so they would show up at the correct time to film that. If ever you told them that you didn't want to be on camera, then they would stop filming. If you needed to get them out of the way of something, they would happily move.

[icepilotjeremy]

A lot of Joe's planes can be made airworthy at Joe's discretion, but many of them are without engines or avionics.... they were subbed into other aircraft as needed. All those old military planes were made to be quickly interchangeable. I dont remember having to act anything out. They may edit things to look a little more exciting, but it all really did happen in one form or another.... I know that is a rather broad statement but it's the best one I can give you without going into specific details.

[Doc]

I would not dispute that short field landings in a taildragger are better accomplished with a three pointer, but man are you talkin about the hairy edge. Screw up just a little and you break your 3's back.... then you get to talk to Joe about why.

How short do you need? I took the mighty Racer into a 1200 foot strip for a fly-in pancake breakfast. Wheel landed the puppy. Disc brakes, ten knots on the nose. Not even a tough one. But then, I'll do anything for pancakes. For New York Strip Loins, I'd take her into 1000 feet!

[Tiny Voices]

I would not dispute that short field landings in a taildragger are better accomplished with a three pointer, but man are you talkin about the hairy edge. Screw up just a little and you break your 3's back.... then you get to talk to Joe about why.

How short do you need? I took the mighty Racer into a 1200 foot strip for a fly-in pancake breakfast. Wheel landed the puppy. Disc brakes, ten knots on the nose. Not even a tough one. But then, I'll do anything for pancakes. For New York Strip Loins, I'd take her into 1000 feet!

You'd probably set her down in a ball diamond for a couple of Teen Burgers and a root beer.