Air Canada's first ground school

[jumpjockey]

Hello All,

I have heard a rumour that Air Canada hired 20 new people and only 12 showed up and of those 12 pilots 2 quit the first day after reviewing the starting pay. Is there any truth to this?

Does anybody really know what new pilots are going to be paid after a few years? This is important info in helping with career decisions.

Thanks for any info and can you please highlight the source of info?

[N2]

What is the pay scale now if you don't mind me asking?

[Shen]

i doubt that , if you going to groundschool you should probably know before what your pay is,otherwise you should not be there in the first place, just common sense.....

[Jaques Strappe]

Hello All,

I have heard a rumour that Air Canada hired 20 new people and only 12 showed up and of those 12 pilots 2 quit the first day after reviewing the starting pay. Is there any truth to this?

Does anybody really know what new pilots are going to be paid after a few years? This is important info in helping with career decisions.

Thanks for any info and can you please highlight the source of info?

I am glad to see that you pre-fixed your post with rumour as that is exactly what that is and bears no fact. If guys went through the whole interview and medical process and didn't bother to find out what they would be getting paid until the groundschool, then I wouldn't want to be flying with them anyway.

To answer your question, no that did not happen. The other thing that happens alot in Canada, is that people bitch. They bitch that they are not getting hired or called and if they do, they bitch about the starting salary.

The pay group starts you at around 42K per year. I think second year is 48K. What once used to be a two year flat pay at far less than 42K is now spread over the fleet up to but not including the 320 F/O position. Once you can hold a 320 f/o spot, you will be on formula pay and your salary will more than double.

Some other stuff to keep in mind. Starting pilot salaries at United, American, USAir, Continental, Westjet are all in this same ball park, if not less than AC. ( checkout airlinepilot.pay.com)

[learcapt]

I truly cannot believe some of the stupidity posted on this site at times. Not sure if its pilots that are low time, not employed, etc, but to say that only 12 showed up, etc. That is just a silly statement. You do not accept a job without reviewing all pertinent information. I have gotten so sick of hearing all the whining, groaning, complaining regarding ACs hiring practices. All the whiners are just jealous. I have over 6000 hours and have not recieved a call, but I must not fit into what they are looking for at the present time. Jaques Strappe...congrats to you man...enjoy the airplane and your seniority number!!! Im truly jealous . Where I work, we have had/are having seven pilots between our two bases getting interviews in the next 2 weeks and although we as a pilot group will miss them, I hope they all get on. One Captain had an interview two weeks ago and got a call 3 days later to say he was starting on course 4 days later. One guy has about 2500 hours, no command time but a degree and diploma! Just my two cents, take care.

[scotothedoublet]

So is the following post from the Air Canada and Jazz forum off the mark?

First year is 37,335.72.
Second year is 42,414.96
Third year is 45,552.12

Even WJ and CJ pay more to the FO's for a starting wage. I understand the philosophy behind the Pay Group but those numbers are just too low.

[ypph]

These wages seem awfully low compared to other airlines such as Cathay, Emirated, Ryanair, Dragonair or Qantas. Do u start as a relief pilot ot can you slot straight onto a Emb or A320?

I understand the cost of living is lower in Canada but its not that low!! And even with CX and Dragon they pay a rental allowance each month.

Is someone able to explain the wages and how they come up with those values

[Jaques Strappe]

Hey Scotch

I would take anything written in here with a huge grain of salt. If you go to airlinepilotpay.com where the numbers have been provided by the pilot association or body, ( not some pissed off unemployed pilot in front of a laptop ) do some research and you will see that Air Canadas' starting salary is the industry norm. I will be the first to agree that the industry norm is too low but I fail to understand why AC is always attacked with regard to this issue.

[ypph]

These wages seem awfully low compared to other airlines such as Cathay, Emirated, Ryanair, Dragonair or Qantas. Do u start as a relief pilot ot can you slot straight onto a Emb or A320?

I understand the cost of living is lower in Canada but its not that low!! And even with CX and Dragon they pay a rental allowance each month.

Is someone able to explain the wages and how they come up with those values

[gelbisch]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it pretty much always been this way? I don't think anyone every started at AC and suddenly found him/herself in the money. I talked to one pilot who married a F/A (back in the '70s) in his first couple years at AC... and she had to pay for her own engagement ring!

So I don't know where all the shock is coming from. Lowish salaries to start is nothing new, and I think there are two reasons for it:

(1) training costs
(2) most guys are so happy to finally be there that they won't whine

In any case, it'd still be a raise for ME, so bring it on!!!

In fact, yeah... the money's way too low... none of you guys should bother applying anymore... pull your applications!

[scotothedoublet]

Thanks for the response JS. My understanding was that the AC salary/rates on airlinepay.com were from an older pay structure and that new hirees would be paid differently (read less). I don't think you need to defend your companies pay rates vs the other Cdn companies. The other carriers seem to be quickly outpaced salary-wise by Air Canada down the road.

I think the big question for most will be whether or not they can reasonably expect to be in a position to bid for the higher paying slots within the first 10 years. If not, it's tough to justify leaving a decent salary. F**k, I should have married a doctor.

Gelbisch...I agree, everyone should pull their applications.

[jumpjockey]

Thank you for your response,

It did sound fishy. The sorce of this was however a laid of AC pilot that did not return from furlough. Perhaps this gentlemen is upset.

Just to note 2 of my friends did quit and removed themselves from the recall list as they found better employment outside of Canada.

For those that feel I may be a young pilot are perhaps jumping to a conclusion may I correct you as I am a Captain of a larger 30+ seat aircraft making in the mid $70K range.

Just seeking advice from those that may have made the jump in pay (reduction) and lifestyle adjustments initially.

P.S. there seems to be a bit of passion from a passive posting. Thanks again.

[whipline]

With all due respect JS, I'm not sure where you are getting your info from. Flat pay off the street is 3,189.10 per month before taxes. 2nd year is 3,622.85 per month. These equal 38,269 and 43,474 per year respectively.

If a "new" hire comes from Jazz they go into 4th year pay which is $70.58 per hour which would equal roughly 70,000 per year. So you can see why Air Canada is not taking many Jazz pilots, they cost more not to mention that Jazz would have to train a new pilot to replace them.

I also posted awhile back that the first course has lost close to half of the new hires. This info is from someone who is in the course, so you might want to ask around a little more.

[greenwich]

These wages seem awfully low compared to other airlines such as Cathay, Emirated, Ryanair, Dragonair or Qantas. Do u start as a relief pilot ot can you slot straight onto a Emb or A320?

I understand the cost of living is lower in Canada but its not that low!! And even with CX and Dragon they pay a rental allowance each month.

Is someone able to explain the wages and how they come up with those values

We have to stop comparing Canada's Airline salaries to the salaries paid at other airlines around the world. I agree that the salary-spread is closer than most people think, but comparing AC salaries to Cathay or BA salaries is like comparing apples to oranges.

The bottom line: There is a trend developing in our industry that is moving the high salaries from North America (and even Europe) over to Asia. If you want to make 'big money' in this industry then start aiming your career at Asia.

G

[quickflight]

I think there is somewaht of a twisted look at this payscale thing. You may very well be able to earn more elswhere, maybe even starting out. But there is more to it than that. The potential for advancment is greater than a smaller company, the benifits are better and very often the schedule aswell. I really look at it as short term pain for long term gain. I wish the pay was hirer too but what makes people think they should get to start at the top, it's like anywhere else start at the bottom and work your way up.

[New Guy]

BA should pay more have you seen the cost of living in the UK?

[Jaques Strappe]

With all due respect JS, I'm not sure where you are getting your info from. Flat pay off the street is 3,189.10 per month before taxes. 2nd year is 3,622.85 per month. These equal 38,269 and 43,474 per year respectively.

If a "new" hire comes from Jazz they go into 4th year pay which is $70.58 per hour which would equal roughly 70,000 per year. So you can see why Air Canada is not taking many Jazz pilots, they cost more not to mention that Jazz would have to train a new pilot to replace them.

I also posted awhile back that the first course has lost close to half of the new hires. This info is from someone who is in the course, so you might want to ask around a little more.

Whip

I got the numbers directly from airlinepilotpay.com I think they are accuate because they have my wage nailed to the dollar. As for the first class, I was doing my Embraer groundschool at the same time these guys were doing their FOM course and the class was full. Not an empty chair in there so I can't speculate on what your friend is talking about.

[Lands Like Brick]

i was talking with a person within the training dept at AC, they are running a new ground school every 2 weeks, 15 people per ground school.
they also stated that the rumors about AC hiring low time pilots is due to the fact that they will be loseing 1/2 their pilots within the next 2 yrs. they are loking for people with post secondary education and low time. i dont see how a Ba in basket weaving has to do with flying a plane.

Anybody hear anything different?????

[greenwich]

Don't you know that people WITH University educations are WAY smarter than those without!!

G

[55+]

I know pilots at AC who have engineering degrees, MBAs and the like. Also know some who have both an engineering degree + an MBA. Some also have a Llb. and some (older) pilots just barely got through high school. Ya see it all but in my 30 odd years I haven't seen where formal education was a hindrance

[Disco Stu]

Anyone getting hired without their ATPL?

[CYQMer]

So the Air Canada pay scale on that pay scale web site is shown hourly.

Is that based on duty time? Ot flight time, or a set number of hours per year?

I can't belive how low the rates are for FO's for airlines such as Canjet, Westjet and the other Canadian Airlines listed on the site. Even the Capatin saleries are not great. If you take the ATC route you make more your 1st year at a Centre than a 10 year Canjet CAPT. Especially with the new contract, ATC salaries are taking a sweet jump. Thats so Sad....

I have a controller in my hosehold who's salery before OT & Cost of living is 74K and after OT & Cost of living added was just shy of $120K. With the new contract it will be $104K before cost of living and OT and you do the math with it added on....

All the crap people put up with from the begining spending the big bucks on flight training to working in some tiny town not being able to settle down to finally making it to the big leauge to end up with those salaries. Maybe we just do it for the flying and not the $$.

[gelbisch]

Maybe we just do it for the flying and not the $$.

You think??

[CYQMer]

Maybe we just do it for the flying and not the $$.

You think??

But would'nt it be nice to have both?

how can one live in a Major Metropolis and raise a family plus support the x-wife on that type of money??

[CYQMer]

nn