Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

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200hr Wonder
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Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by 200hr Wonder »

http://globalnews.ca/news/1755135/why-w ... w-on-fuel/

ZOMG WE LANDED SOMEWHERE ELSE TO GET FUEL WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!

Ugh take the time to watch the video it is utterly stupid. This is such a non story for what reason?
TORONTO – On Saturday, passengers on a flight from Manzanillo, Mexico, to Vancouver, B.C. found themselves at Abbotsford International Airport — without warning.

To make matters worse, 36 bags were still in Mexico.

Why? Because pilots of the Boeing 737-800 faced strong headwinds that would have maximized the plane’s fuel consumption.

For some passengers, the situation seemed odd when the airport was less than 100-km away.

But Scott Hamilton from Leeham Company, an aviation consulting company, said it’s not unusual for planes to require to refuel, in particular, with strong headwinds.

“It goes with headwinds and the payload range of the 737 with 189 seats,” he said. “Offloading baggage, at the origin, is not unknown. It’s not common, but it’s not unknown. And it usually has to do with the airplane going at the extreme range of its capability.”

Hamilton said that the 737, at a configuration of 162 passengers is expected to fly about 3100 nautical miles, about 5700 km. But the Sunwing jet has 189 seats which would reduce the range. Boeing’s website does not give the maximum range of a 189-passenger configuration. According to FlightAware, Flight 262 flew about 2100 nautical miles, or 3700 km.

Hamilton said that you might see planes having to refuel more in the winter due to stronger headwinds.

“Theoretically, there shouldn’t have been a problem,” Hamilton said. “And obviously, you don’t want to play Russian roulette with your fuel gauge.”
In a statement sent to Global News, Sunwing confirmed that the baggage offloading was due to the weather at the time.

“Prior to departure from Mexico, 36 bags were also offloaded in Manzanillo to reduce the aircraft weight in an effort to alleviate excess fuel burn due to the anticipated headwinds.
Such incidents are not a regular occurrence, and it is important to note that the customers were not in any danger. This was not an emergency landing.”

Chris Krepski, a spokesperson for the Transportation Safety Board said that they are aware of the situation and awaiting a report from Sunwing.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Rockie »

In this case I don't think it's really the media's fault but rather Sunwing's spokesperson. They could have said for instance "the bags were left behind in order to carry the required fuel made necessary by stronger than normal headwinds, and on arrival in the Vancouver area the weather and unexpected delays in landing forced the crew to divert to their alternate airfield BEFORE low fuel became an issue".

I have no idea if that's actually what happened but the truth probably isn't far from that.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by URC »

I have no idea
Nothing remarkable about the weather in YVR.

METAR CYVR 040400Z 07010KT 8SM -RA FEW023 OVC039 03/02 A3024
METAR CYVR 040500Z 07007KT 10SM -RA BKN025 OVC041 02/02 A3025

METAR CYXX 040400Z 02005KT 7SM -RA FEW003 OVC040 02/01 A3024
METAR CYXX 040500Z 03006KT 7SM -RA FEW005 OVC040 02/02 A3024

The flight did not appear to be subject to any enroute holding or re-routes prior to the decision to divert ...

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWG2 ... /MMZO/CYVR

Traffic was light into YVR, 16 arrivals/per hour (+/- 30 minutes of SWG262 eta), LiveATC archives indicated normal operations. Unlikely impending terminal delays were a factor.

Declared "Minimum Fuel" with Seattle, then diverted. So apparently fuel was an issue prior.

CADORS: A Sunwing Airlines Boeing 737 800 (SWG262) from Manzanillo (MMZO) to Vancouver, BC (CYVR) declared minimum fuel with Seattle, WA Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and subsequently diverted to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) for fuel. Further Action Required: Yes

Required enroute reserve contingency fuel should be enough to account for unforecasted increased enroute headwinds. Flighplans are not usually off by more than a few minutes. It would be interesting to know what really happened here ?
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Rockie »

That is very interesting. I can't see how Abbotsford is any better than YVR coming up from the south but something made them decide to go there instead. Although with 08 in use it is a tiny little bit farther to go.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by GyvAir »

Whatever factor or combinations of factors resulted in the unscheduled fuel stop, I agree with Rockie; being a little more proactive in keeping the passengers informed and perhaps handing out some extra peanuts and pop probably would have gone a long way. Send out a group email to everyone on the flight apologizing for the delay, along with an explanation update on when their luggage will arrive. Even if told it's going to be 5 days later, 99.9% will be more or less satisfied knowing what to expect and then pleased if it only takes 2 days.
Not sure how they would put a good spin on a 12 year old being left overnight in the airport though. No doubt there's more to that story too.
As far as what these people "endured".. a lot of North Americans really need to get a grip on the definitions of suffering and nightmare, etc. I hope to hell I never find myself saying that I was unnerved by a precautionary fuel stop and a nightmare 1.5 hour delay.
Rockie wrote: Although with 08 in use it is a tiny little bit farther to go.
I like how Global's little CGI of the flight shows it practically overflying YVR before diverting to Abbotsford.
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flyer 1492
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by flyer 1492 »

[quote="Rockie"]That is very interesting. I can't see how Abbotsford is any better than YVR coming up from the south but something made them decide to go there instead. Although with 08 in use it is a tiny little bit farther to go.[/quote

Since they had already stated that they were low on fuel and YXX would have probably been their alternate. If they had continued to yvr and missed, they wouldn't have their alternate plus 30 minute reserve of fuel on board. Good crew decision.

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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by whiteguy »

What made me laugh was one article comparing this to the Gimili Glider and the Azores Glider!
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by GyvAir »

I wonder when the movie will come out?
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by URC »

What made me laugh was one article comparing this to the Gimili Glider and the Azores Glider!
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/01/sunw ... d-airport/

Depends how much fuel they had left when they landed ? Maybe the article is not that far off the mark ?
I wonder when the movie will come out?
The sequel, staring Air Transat.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/News/ottaw ... story.html
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by GyvAir »

All the usual reporting errors. That last link on the Sunwing diversion said they took off the bags in YXX to save weight. If they went in empty-ish and only had to hop over to YVR, I'm sure they were still plenty light after fueling.

I've been in all sorts of delays due to the whole range of reasons and/or excuses, many longer than any of these recent stories. I'm not sure why it's never once occurred to me or, as far as I know, any of my fellow passengers at the time, to go to the media to whine it up and dramatize.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by URC »

If they had continued to yvr and missed, they wouldn't have their alternate plus 30 minute reserve of fuel on board. Good crew decision.
Diverted to a single runway CATI ILS airport vs a dual runway CATIII ILS airport for the sake of about 15 minutes worth of fuel. The weather was VFR at destination. The alternate plus 30 is only a dispatch requirement prior to departure. The airports are only 34nm apart. The logic is questionable, unless you are really short on fuel ?
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by cgzro »

To the general public this is an unusual event. Hell I fly a ton with AC and others in the back and cant remember a single missed or flight to alternate. Lots of cancellations and delays and of course lost bags but if we landed somewhere unplanned to get gas it would be very unusual to me.

Was it dangerous, probably not but was it newsworthy.. Likely because its so unheard of for big jets.

Of course you can count on the media to get it wrong or over hype it.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by gonnabeapilot »

URC wrote:
If they had continued to yvr and missed, they wouldn't have their alternate plus 30 minute reserve of fuel on board. Good crew decision.
Diverted to a single runway CATI ILS airport vs a dual runway CATIII ILS airport for the sake of about 15 minutes worth of fuel. The weather was VFR at destination. The alternate plus 30 is only a dispatch requirement prior to departure. The airports are only 34nm apart. The logic is questionable, unless you are really short on fuel ?
Unfortunately Sunwing's Flight Operations Manual is much more restrictive than the CARs. The Sunwing FOM states that if at any point during the flight the predicted fuel on arrival at destination will be below the required minimum diversion fuel (fuel to alternate + 30 mins) the flight may not continue to destination and must divert to an alternate airport. You can definitely question the logic of the way the FOM is written but since the FOM governs Sunwing's flight operations the crew's hands are tied in situations such as this one...
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Rockie »

[quote="flyer 1492"][quote="Rockie"]That is very interesting. I can't see how Abbotsford is any better than YVR coming up from the south but something made them decide to go there instead. Although with 08 in use it is a tiny little bit farther to go.[/quote

Since they had already stated that they were low on fuel and YXX would have probably been their alternate. If they had continued to yvr and missed, they wouldn't have their alternate plus 30 minute reserve of fuel on board. Good crew decision.

Alternate fuel (when an alternate is required) is a flight planning requirement, but once the flight is airborne the use of that fuel is at the pilot's discretion. They didn't have to land in YVR with the alternate fuel onboard, but they did have to land with 30 minutes of fuel left or declare an emergency. If they had to land in YXX versus going the few extra miles to YVR then they burned through not only their 5% contingency but probably their alternate fuel as well.

The previously posted airfield conditions and traffic in YVR would not be any cause for concern in delaying or preventing an immediate successful approach and landing.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by URC »

The Sunwing FOM states that if at any point during the flight the predicted fuel on arrival at destination will be below the required minimum diversion fuel(fuel to alternate + 30 mins) the flight may not continue to destination and must divert to an alternate airport.
What happens when the only suitable alternate is PAST your destination (Caribbean, Mexico) ? "May not continue to destination" ! Really ? What if the alternate was Comox and the weather was marginal in YXX and VFR in YVR ? Is there not some sort of "Captains Authority Clause" in the FOM to superseed this ?
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by creepilot »

GyvAir wrote: As far as what these people "endured".. a lot of North Americans really need to get a grip on the definitions of suffering and nightmare, etc. I hope to hell I never find myself saying that I was unnerved by a precautionary fuel stop and a nightmare 1.5 hour delay.
:prayer:
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by turbo-prop »

Do they have the no alternate ops spec? If so they would only have the required 45 minutes reserve. (Which in this case might be the same as carrying 30 min reserve and fuel for an alternate.)
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by gonnabeapilot »

URC wrote:
The Sunwing FOM states that if at any point during the flight the predicted fuel on arrival at destination will be below the required minimum diversion fuel(fuel to alternate + 30 mins) the flight may not continue to destination and must divert to an alternate airport.
What happens when the only suitable alternate is PAST your destination (Caribbean, Mexico) ? "May not continue to destination" ! Really ? What if the alternate was Comox and the weather was marginal in YXX and VFR in YVR ? Is there not some sort of "Captains Authority Clause" in the FOM to superseed this ?
In that case, as dumb as it sounds, you would have to overfly your destination of Vancouver and land in Comox. Sadly there is no Captains Authority Clause or anything like similar that would allow the FOM to be superseded. The company has been trying to have this changed so that the FOM more closely resembles the CARs however any changes must be approved by Transport and those approvals don't happen quickly.
turbo-prop wrote:Do they have the no alternate ops spec? If so they would only have the required 45 minutes reserve. (Which in this case might be the same as carrying 30 min reserve and fuel for an alternate.)
Nope. There is no "no alternate IFR" ops spec at Sunwing although, again, the company is working on changing this.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Rockie »

gonnabeapilot wrote:
URC wrote:
The Sunwing FOM states that if at any point during the flight the predicted fuel on arrival at destination will be below the required minimum diversion fuel(fuel to alternate + 30 mins) the flight may not continue to destination and must divert to an alternate airport.
What happens when the only suitable alternate is PAST your destination (Caribbean, Mexico) ? "May not continue to destination" ! Really ? What if the alternate was Comox and the weather was marginal in YXX and VFR in YVR ? Is there not some sort of "Captains Authority Clause" in the FOM to superseed this ?
In that case, as dumb as it sounds, you would have to overfly your destination of Vancouver and land in Comox. Sadly there is no Captains Authority Clause or anything like similar that would allow the FOM to be superseded. The company has been trying to have this changed so that the FOM more closely resembles the CARs however any changes must be approved by Transport and those approvals don't happen quickly.
Assuming the words "an" alternate airport instead of "the" alternate airport is intentional, it seems the intent of the FOM is to have the crew stop short which I guess it could be argued in this case they did.

That clause in your FOM was put there by your company in the first place, and given the many circumstances where it could potentially place the aircraft in an even less ideal situation it seems to be overly restrictive. Getting verbal approval in principle from your POI to add in Captain discretion should be a slam dunk and they could follow up with paperwork when they have the chance. Failing that, in the obvious interest in safety your company should just make it an immediate policy change explaining what and why to TC. There's no way TC would argue.

And of course you already have Captain authority (and responsibility) to do whatever you think necessary to ensure the safety of the flight bestowed on you by the Aeronautics Act, which supersedes not only your FOM but the CAR's as well.
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Redneck_pilot86 »

Would US Customs played a factor at all? Trying to avoid landing in the states? Obviously everyone on board would have a passport, but if any of them had a criminal record and weren't allowed to enter the US, I could see some issues arising. I assume Abbotsford would be the first suitable Canadian airport they reached?
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Blueontop »

[quote="GyvAir"]
As far as what these people "endured".. a lot of North Americans really need to get a grip on the definitions of suffering and nightmare, etc. I hope to hell I never find myself saying that I was unnerved by a precautionary fuel stop and a nightmare 1.5 hour delay.[quote="GyvAir"]


The hardships of modern flying described by Louis C.K. :lol:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by GyvAir »

lol.. yep, that's a great bit!
Redneck_pilot86 wrote:Would US Customs played a factor at all?
The toss up between that and the (I presume) cheaper fuel... tough call!
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Bede »

So you're running low on fuel and you decide to overfly your destination and land at an alternate with even less fuel and usually poorer approach facilities? Who would even put something that stupid in a FOM in the first place?
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by AirFrame »

I wonder if the pilot was trying to finagle a priority approach to YVR by declaring a fuel emergency... Or if they wanted to land in Abbotsford because the fuel was cheaper. :)
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Re: Sunwing getting dragged through the mud by Global TV

Post by Rockie »

AirFrame wrote:I wonder if the pilot was trying to finagle a priority approach to YVR by declaring a fuel emergency... Or if they wanted to land in Abbotsford because the fuel was cheaper. :)
Declare a fuel "emergency" and the airport and airspace around it immediately become yours, declaring "minimum" fuel however doesn't necessarily get you anything.
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