I'll start by saying that I am a captain with Westjet and have been for over 10 years.

When I started things were very different and for me it was the right career choice at the time and I am happy I am here. Frequently we have conversations in the flightdeck about the next generation of pilots and what they can expect. As of today if you are hired at WJ you are looking at 12+ years to upgrade and the expectation is it may take longer...and you will be based in Toronto.

I can tell you that WJ pilots were very upset with the work conditions offered to Encore people when the airline started. We warned management that they would not get the people they needed to operate those Q400's if they were going to pay such low wages and poor conditions. We were right. Encore struggled to find pilots and it caused training and scheduling nightmares for Encore. In spite of the press releases it was a s**t show. The people that did get hired were worked very hard and paid very little. The trade off for them was that they have/will see a quick trip to the jets. However, after that group, things will dry up. In fact its already started.

If you are hoping to get a quicker trip to Westjet via Encore you may want to rethink the strategy. Based on projected WJ fleet growth (narrow and wide body) combined with relatively few retirements( we have a young pilot group) over the next several years, the potential for movement is very low at best. From a career perspective there are better pay and lifestyle choices via AC/Jazz. For example: Wj will have 15 retirements in the next year vs. AC's over 300. Other things to consider are work conditions and compensation over the course of your career ie. if you are going to sit in the right seat for 10-15 years you should get credit for that. AC offers significantly better credit for that time which means more dollars in you pocket at retirement than your WJ peer.

If you do decide that you want to try Encore just to gain overall experience be aware of what you are in for. Presently WJ management is resisting the push to put an agreement in place for Encore pilots. In fact, Encore's president Ferio Pugliese was in their groundschool recently trying to convince Encore pilots not to start the TA process. Sad and embarrassing.

If you do decide to try Encore you can take some comfort in knowing that WJ pilots an the WJPA are fighting hard to make it a better place to work but for now it's not quite there yet.

AC will not have 300 retirements this year. The age 60 situation is to blame for that. Yes we have a significantly older pilot base than WS and we will benefit from that someday (baring anything special, 2017 is when the group will start to hit 65 and start to retire). Life at AC can be decent but you will be at the bottom of the list for a bit - bottom reserve picking up the 30 hour YDF layovers and non stop red-eyes. It does improve once your seniority improves.

The one issue is with the new jazz CPA.. It sounds like you may have to go through Jazz to join AC… If you are bottom of the PML it may take some time to come over to big red.

Canadianjetpilot wrote:I can tell you that WJ pilots were very upset with the work conditions offered to Encore people when the airline started. We warned management that they would not get the people they needed to operate those Q400's if they were going to pay such low wages and poor conditions. We were right. Encore struggled to find pilots and it caused training and scheduling nightmares for Encore. In spite of the press releases it was a s**t show. The people that did get hired were worked very hard and paid very little. The trade off for them was that they have/will see a quick trip to the jets. However, after that group, things will dry up. In fact its already started.

I was a young Captain on a corporate jet and had the goal of working for Westjet mainline. I had the exact mindset,attitude,skills that Westjet stood for.

This all changed when I saw the WAWCON for Encore. I couldn't bring myself to such low self worth. It was actually insulting. I soon lost a ton of respect for most of my friends that joined Encore. I watched them struggle to live barely above the poverty line. I wish Westjet would've followed some of their employees out to the parking lot to their barely driveable shitbox cars and follow them to their basement apartment with 3 or 4 other struggling Pilots living together in filth. You should be proud.

Well, their loss. I'm happy with where I'm at.

Westjet. you lost a good one.

A very refreshing post Canadianjetpilot

Without all the name calling and slander, Encore is simply a very poor career choice for most qualified pilots. Our careers (as potential captains) have at the most 45 years left, much less for some of us. When you factor in what it will cost you in lost wages to join Encore, it is staggering. I am glad to hear there are others out there who did their part for the industry and said no to signing on with Encore. I probably blacklisted myself from Westjet by turning down the offer from them, but my children have full bellies and a roof over their head. A career at Encore simply could not provide that.

Instead of mocking the guy, you should have the professional courtesy and decency of showing a little bit of gratitude. If only more people in this industry gave two shits about their fellow colleagues and not only themselves.

Thank you for posting this.

I was deciding whether I would be able to struggle for a bit and live off those wages. I have decided not to put my wife through that for the "WestJet" name.

Encore have never or will never receive an application from myself unless they drastically improve their compensation for pilots. Living comfortably in Calgary or Toronto on an FO wage is near impossible. Westjet Encore has so much potential-come on WJ!?

Canadianjetpilot wrote:I'll start by saying that I am a captain with Westjet and have been for over 10 years.

When I started things were very different and for me it was the right career choice at the time and I am happy I am here. Frequently we have conversations in the flightdeck about the next generation of pilots and what they can expect. As of today if you are hired at WJ you are looking at 12+ years to upgrade and the expectation is it may take longer...and you will be based in Toronto.

I can tell you that WJ pilots were very upset with the work conditions offered to Encore people when the airline started. We warned management that they would not get the people they needed to operate those Q400's if they were going to pay such low wages and poor conditions. We were right. Encore struggled to find pilots and it caused training and scheduling nightmares for Encore. In spite of the press releases it was a s**t show. The people that did get hired were worked very hard and paid very little. The trade off for them was that they have/will see a quick trip to the jets. However, after that group, things will dry up. In fact its already started.

If you are hoping to get a quicker trip to Westjet via Encore you may want to rethink the strategy. Based on projected WJ fleet growth (narrow and wide body) combined with relatively few retirements( we have a young pilot group) over the next several years, the potential for movement is very low at best. From a career perspective there are better pay and lifestyle choices via AC/Jazz. For example: Wj will have 15 retirements in the next year vs. AC's over 300. Other things to consider are work conditions and compensation over the course of your career ie. if you are going to sit in the right seat for 10-15 years you should get credit for that. AC offers significantly better credit for that time which means more dollars in you pocket at retirement than your WJ peer.

If you do decide that you want to try Encore just to gain overall experience be aware of what you are in for. Presently WJ management is resisting the push to put an agreement in place for Encore pilots. In fact, Encore's president Ferio Pugliese was in their groundschool recently trying to convince Encore pilots not to start the TA process. Sad and embarrassing.

If you do decide to try Encore you can take some comfort in knowing that WJ pilots an the WJPA are fighting hard to make it a better place to work but for now it's not quite there yet.

Thank you!!

A man that is looking out for his fellow pilot. We all find ourselves looking out for number one sometimes. I applaud the effort of those that have gone ahead at WJ, to not throw future generations of WJ'ers under the proverbial bus so as to protect what they have at the cost of those to follow.

Thanks again!!!

Thank you for what's just a kind "heads up". I'm sure Encore isn't the end of the world, but I'm sure many who get easily blinded climbing the ladder (such as myself) and want to start the home fires burning will appreciate a clearer view view from higher up.

Cheers
Dan

Also at Encore you do not get paid during the training + you have to manage for your accommodations.

So yep, live in your parents basement and ask them for money or.... use the mastercard.

rocket81 wrote:Also at Encore you do not get paid during the training

Untrue.

DanWEC wrote:who get easily blinded climbing the ladder (such as myself) and want to start the home fires burning will appreciate a clearer view view from higher up.

You have ambitions? Holy crap that's the first time you've mentioned anything of the sort!

Send my regards to your better half from me. We'll probably be in town for a visit this fall and will have to catch up with you both in the pew at the monastery!!!

All the best,
TPC

Kudos to CanadianJetPilot. What a refreshing perspective in a on-line world so ripe with conjecture, hysteria and unfounded BS...

About six months ago I received a call from the recruiters and was mistakenly lead to believe that I would be interviewing for one of the (rare) direct entry captain ground school seats. Then, in an e-mail, I was informed that as per the hiring matrix, my 2000 hours plus PIC time (above twelve five) was not enough. Ok, I understand, but not really; it is a hiring requirement that I do no possess. So, I had a choice; interview for a right-seat and take my chances on turn-over. No guarantees, I thought. However, somebody then pointed me in the direction of Encore Salary numbers and I all but regurgitated my dinner on the MacBook Pro. I really had no idea. I wonder if the recruiters hold their breath when they call guys to set up the phone interviews...

Several quotes come to mind:

"Oh, the humanity."
"Obviously, you're not a golfer."
"Toto, I've got a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."
"Surely you can't be serious."

Thanks again CanadianJetPilot!

Canadajetpilot pretty much summed up how 90% of the guys on line feel. As a very vocal proponent of the Encore business plan at its inception, I'm really disappointed in the way things have transpired.

Their entire compensation strategy is based on a carrot at the end of the stick. The problem is the stick is getting increasingly longer.

And the downward spiral continues.

I wonder if experience requirements will be the next to be cut? After all... wouldn't pilots rather fly a Dash for twenty and change vs a Metro?

iflyforpie wrote:And the downward spiral continues.

I wonder if experience requirements will be the next to be cut? After all... wouldn't pilots rather fly a Dash for twenty and change vs a Metro?

They've already been massively reduced from what they started out as, once all the plebs are sucked up from the +2000hr mark they'll drop it down to +1500 mark...

Bede wrote: Their entire compensation strategy is based on a carrot at the end of the stick. The problem is the stick is getting increasingly longer.

Very interesting comment, and another valuable insight from someone on the inside.

The simple solution is for everyone to not accept such pathetic wages but the problem is there will be 20 guys behind you who will.

You are right Inverted...

If people stop applying all of a sudden we see signing bonuses and retention bonuses. It is happening in the USA

Good bonues to 20k per year...

Inverted2 wrote:The simple solution is for everyone to not accept such pathetic wages but the problem is there will be 20 guys behind you who will.

Just do your part, don't be part of the 20. (directed at everyone, not you specifically)

I read a lot of comments on these forum about how the new guys trying to get a good life in the aviation shouldn't bend over and request a fair wage and working conditions. I'm one of those who fight for his rights of a good life and fair wage and numerous employer laugh at me doing so. Now, at the end of the day I'm still unemployed and struggling to support my family.

So, I'm asking myself and other pilots why pilot association in those cie accept those unfair working condition? When was the last strike in the aviation? I'm sure that if all those older pilots well covered by their association we're going on strike for the youngest one, present this ridiculous situation to the media and defend the fact that a co-pilot IS in fact a pilot and should be paid fair wage for his work. WE could change something. Until then, I don't have much choice, either accept what those pilot association gave me or leave my family homeless and starving.

Bede wrote: Their entire compensation strategy is based on a carrot at the end of the stick. The problem is the stick is getting increasingly longer.

Great line. Mind if I use it? This pretty much sums up our entire industry, from kids working ramps, to right seaters in name brand airlines.
The American "feeder" lines have been paying peanuts for years. I'd have expected better of WestJet? Guess deep down, they're all "users".
Illya

Illya Kuryakin wrote:

Bede wrote: Their entire compensation strategy is based on a carrot at the end of the stick. The problem is the stick is getting increasingly longer.

Great line. Mind if I use it? This pretty much sums up our entire industry, from kids working ramps, to right seaters in name brand airlines.
The American "feeder" lines have been paying peanuts for years. I'd have expected better of WestJet? Guess deep down, they're all "users".
Illya

Air Canada just realized this is also a great way to staff the entire AC Express line.

Illya Kuryakin wrote:

Bede wrote: Their entire compensation strategy is based on a carrot at the end of the stick. The problem is the stick is getting increasingly longer.

Great line. Mind if I use it? This pretty much sums up our entire industry, from kids working ramps, to right seaters in name brand airlines.
The American "feeder" lines have been paying peanuts for years. I'd have expected better of WestJet? Guess deep down, they're all "users".
Illya

Just make sure that you add that the carrot is getting smaller as well. How many guys in aviation are making--adjusted for inflation--what their forebears were making 20 years before? And I'm talking apples and apples here... no per diems, no long hours of overtime, no expats, no wishy washy stock options that might be nothing more than toilet paper in five years....

How much better it must have been when you didn't have to start out your sunset career on an airline with a verb or adjective after the name and a completely different set of values and compensation...