Airline Career Outlook

[+RA]

As a young low-time pilot, I certainly wouldn't exclude myself from pursuing a non-airline career; however, I'm curious what everyone's opinion as to the outlook for a 250 hour pilot hoping to pursue a career in the airlines is nowadays?

It seems to me that with Westjet's younger pilot group and planned one-hundred percent flow through Encore, there will be far less movement as compared to other airlines within the next two decades.

Air Canada may present a better career now in the long run in terms of movement, with a stabilized fleet size and older pilot group. Furthermore, the new flow through agreement which Jazz seems to have attracted many of Jazz's more senior pilots, meaning those positions opening up from retiring Air Canada pilots are being filled by pilots at Jazz who are already well established in their careers and are within two decades or less of retirement themselves.

This is just my analysis of the situation viewed from the outside so I'd be eager to hear other opinions.

Assuming Air Canada is the way to go though, what would be the best way to pursue a career there? Would trying to get onto somewhere like Jazz, Air Georgian, EVAS, or SkyRegional be the best option; or would pursuing a position at a good company that one can imagine spending the rest of their career at while still applying to Air Canada on the side be the better way to go?

Thanks!

[av8ts]

Just remember that at Encore you actually already have the job at WJ. At the AC regionals you still have to go through the interview process at AC and start at the bottom of the list. Some Jazz pilots on the PML have already been turned down by AC

[Jasper]

There are few, stable lifetime jobs in Canada outside of the airlines. Many corporate guys have 5 or 6 micro-careers as their paychecks are at the whims of the CEO du jour. There are rare exceptions but even the old flight departments are showing stress cracks and the trends are to management companies. Those companies are great experience builders but they lead the race to the bottom in business aviation.

There is increased stability in the airlines these days as the two majors are well established and reasonably stable. Apply at all airlines and hope for the best. that is all you can do. Starting over, I would have gone military as a career and had an exit strategy of my liking not someone else's.

[Panama Jack]

It is good that you are asking. The route to the airlines, from the perspective of a 250 hour pilot, is pretty much the same. Your objective is to get your ATP, so there is always the option of charter/air taxi or flight instructor. You will likely need to pass through something turbine related or regional at some point. Not a bad idea to look at the hiring minima for any of these companies but, keep in mind, they are minima for applying, and do not mean they will choose you if you have met all of those requirements. Networking remains an essential part of your job search strategy and often makes the difference.

My personal bias, and I don't work at either airline, is that Westjet will offer a more stable and fullfilling career than Air Canada. Westjet has an excellent working and business culture and is a consistently profitable airline; over the last 14 years Air Canada crept a couple times to the edge of bankruptcy and I don't believe they are out of the forest yet- they may survive another crisis but staff take a beating both financially and moralwise when these things happen. I have been there, done that, and it isn't fun being on a losing team.

There will continue to be a downward pressure on costs in the industry, especially when (not if) Ultra-low Cost Carriers make their entry into the market. 10 years is a long time in the airline industry to make any kind of meaningful forecasts, nevermind over a 40 year career.

[Old fella]

As a young low-time pilot, I certainly wouldn't exclude myself from pursuing a non-airline career; however, I'm curious what everyone's opinion as to the outlook for a 250 hour pilot hoping to pursue a career in the airlines is nowadays?

It seems to me that with Westjet's younger pilot group and planned one-hundred percent flow through Encore, there will be far less movement as compared to other airlines within the next two decades.

Air Canada may present a better career now in the long run in terms of movement, with a stabilized fleet size and older pilot group. Furthermore, the new flow through agreement which Jazz seems to have attracted many of Jazz's more senior pilots, meaning those positions opening up from retiring Air Canada pilots are being filled by pilots at Jazz who are already well established in their careers and are within two decades or less of retirement themselves.

This is just my analysis of the situation viewed from the outside so I'd be eager to hear other opinions.

Assuming Air Canada is the way to go though, what would be the best way to pursue a career there? Would trying to get onto somewhere like Jazz, Air Georgian, EVAS, or SkyRegional be the best option; or would pursuing a position at a good company that one can imagine spending the rest of their career at while still applying to Air Canada on the side be the better way to go?

Thanks!

Although not experienced in any airline operations, please permit me to add some commentary based on my close to 65 yrs. living and my working life being in aviation. First of all your situation (250 young hrs, seeking an airline career) isn’t unique. It was the same 30-40 yrs. back when I wore a much younger man’s clothes. If you have that determination to get your airline job, stick with it. Ten very close individuals I can relate to who wanted that airline job, seven were successful. Other three (of which I was one) went different routes but in our own way, were successful as well. Be prepared to go where the jobs are (during your employment seeking yrs.), money may be piss poor (that isn’t unique either), conditions just as bad. Don’t lose sight of your ultimate goal-airline pilot while dealing with adversarial situations you will face and you will. Stay positive and do the best you can remembering sometimes you will be ahead, sometimes you will be behind – the aviation super airway is long indeed. Don’t discount or discriminate against smaller airlines (Porter, Encore, JAZZ etc.) as they can and do offer rewarding careers and a lifestyle that may be better suited to your own prospective as time moves on and it (time) does. I know a couple of senior/older JAZZ guys flogging around in a DHC-8 who like it, the lifestyle and that B777/87 left seat position is water under the bridge long ago and it doesn’t bother them as they said.
Work hard, keep at it, stay loose!!

[BE20 Driver]

Encore does not have 100% flow and my best guess is that it will remain at 25% for several years to come. I hope to be proven wrong.

[johnny_paints]

become an electrician, have money to fly for fun

[Pop n Fresh]

You spelled plumber wrong.

[xsbank]

Canada 3000, Canadian Pacific, Pacific Western, Time Air, Queen Charlotte Airlines, Air BC, Nordair, NWTAir, Wardair, That Purple One, That Green One, That one in Vancouver, That Other Montreal One...

[iflyforpie]

That Purple One, That Green One, That one in Vancouver, That Other Montreal One...

Tango? JetsGo. HMY/Harmony. Royal.

Roots, Greyhound, Skyservice, Zip.... etc etc etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_de ... _of_Canada

[Johnny#5]

Just remember that at Encore you actually already have the job at WJ. At the AC regionals you still have to go through the interview process at AC and start at the bottom of the list. Some Jazz pilots on the PML have already been turned down by AC

Seriously? Thats crazy shit...I figured a Jazz pilot would have to punch the interviewer in the face to not get through it...

[Liquid Charlie]

Just remember that at Encore you actually already have the job at WJ.

-- wrong unless this has recently changed -- same deal as Jazz -- you get a guaranteed position in the hiring structure with no guarantee of a job unless you do well and this is after you have fulfilled your commitment to Encore -- why would Encore sacrifice it's pilot pool just to benefit pilot careers -- they control the hiring and flow through and until such time Encore and it's pilots have a collective agreement you are at their mercy.

[BTD]

Just remember that at Encore you actually already have the job at WJ.

-- wrong unless this has recently changed -- same deal as Jazz -- you get a guaranteed position in the hiring structure with no guarantee of a job unless you do well and this is after you have fulfilled your commitment to Encore -- why would Encore sacrifice it's pilot pool just to benefit pilot careers -- they control the hiring and flow through and until such time Encore and it's pilots have a collective agreement you are at their mercy.

I'll bet that the flow through is a serious asset to encore. They have people lining up or did. I'm sure the flow through is a significant reason for that. If the taps were to dry up for the flow through I'm sure it would slow down for encore themselves.

[Starting 4]

+RA
With 250 hours you can potentially score a job at a major airline. For example CX is now taking pilots with little or no experience. Check here. You will be an SO for 3-4 years before sitting right seat. After 1000 hours or so of large jet time you can apply to AC or whomever you want. Your ticket is written.

[loopa]

Just remember that at Encore you actually already have the job at WJ.

-- wrong unless this has recently changed -- same deal as Jazz -- you get a guaranteed position in the hiring structure with no guarantee of a job unless you do well and this is after you have fulfilled your commitment to Encore -- why would Encore sacrifice it's pilot pool just to benefit pilot careers -- they control the hiring and flow through and until such time Encore and it's pilots have a collective agreement you are at their mercy.

A bit off topic but also not really since the OP is asking about a good route. So factual information is good to consider.

Encore/WJ isn't the same deal as Jazz/AC. At Encore you are on the same pilot list as WJ. You carry seniority at WJ while at flying Encore. You do not have to pass another interview/medical to go to WJ. Your time to command at WJ is earned during your tenure at Encore. Case-in-point, an Encore employee today is ahead of of a WJ employee tomorrow with regards to anything that is seniority based.

For example: This example is completely unlikely, but just explored to prove a point. Say in the case that the next 737 Captain spot was to be filled by seniority number #1000. In the unlikely event where that person is at Encore, they will get it before the next 737 F/O on the list with a seniority number of #1001. In reality #1000 will have already flown through and been at WJ for a while. But just demonstrating how it works. You don't need a TA for that system, otherwise what's the point of the one list where you are sorted according to DOH? There will also be individual cases where people can't pass command assessments but that is a completely different ball game than the discussion at hand.

At Jazz, you hold nothing at AC besides the promise that you have 80% chance to interview for a position. Only to be right back at the bottom of the seniority if you are successful and manage to score a job at AC.

For Example: You spend 10 years at Jazz. Go to AC, hold no seniority from Jazz. Then you start your AC career with a brand new seniority number and have to wait another 10-15 years for a decent seniority number to actually have a good life/schedule/pay again.

Or is my understanding of the above incorrect LC?

[timel]

+RA
With 250 hours you can potentially score a job at a major airline. For example CX is now taking pilots with little or no experience. Check here. You will be an SO for 3-4 years before sitting right seat. After 1000 hours or so of large jet time you can apply to AC or whomever you want. Your ticket is written.

Why would AC choose someone with 1000 SO experience versus what they can get on Canadian market? I bet they will favour a local market of guys with Dash .. Beech...

Progression at Cathay is: S.O., Jr. F.O., F.O., snFO., Captain... From what I can read.
I guess it is a life choice, no money to spend on training but undergo 2 million tests and interviews.



What ever you choose to do:

Live life day after day, enjoy every moment you get to fly, take opportunities as they come, do good work and be good to others.

[Starting 4]

Why would AC choose someone with 1000 SO experience versus what they can get on Canadian market? I bet they will favour a local market of guys with Dash .. Beech...

They might not choose someone with 1000 SO time but they would definitely consider someone with 1000 hrs B777 right seat as my post was intended to point out.

[fish4life]

Isn't 500 MPIC a req?

[davecessna]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAyKJAtDNCw

[Stu Pidasso]

There is NO comparison between a career at AC verse WJ, in my opinion. As we speak new hires are going directly into the right seat of the 767 at Rouge, flying some of the best routes in the world Athens, Rome, Venice, Dublin, Honolulu, Maui. From what I hear from the Rouge guys, if you happen to be a young, single guy - you are in for a fantastic time .

Lots of choices, Relief Pilot on a T7 or 787 flying 9 days/month to Asia. If you (want) to fly, right seat on the EMB or Airbus.

Given a choice between the two, the decision would be pretty easy.

...oh, Tango was never an Airline.

[+RA]

Thanks for the input from all.

av8ts, thanks for the note. Although Encore appears to provide more guarantees, I'm not sure it's the better package overall.

Jasper, thanks for the suggestion. The primary reason I'm interested in the airlines is their relatively long-term stability, which given my young age might be worthwhile to pursue.

Panama Jack, thank you for your information. I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Westjet as their business model has proven very profitable and it's likely to provide long-term stability on top of a good work environment in the future.

Old fella, very good advice - thank you for sharing your experience.

xsbank and iflyforpie, I realize that long-term forecasts are nearly impossible to produce in aviation; however, I believe that at least getting a sense of where the market is shifting might be a worthwhile pursuit.

Starting 4, thank you for your suggestion. I did consider CX; however, I'm not sure yet that long-haul flying is my cup of tea and would hate to miss out on some of the amazing flying in some of the most beautiful regions here in Canada first.

timel, words to live by - thank you!

davecessna, haha I feel you man.

Stu Pidasso, thanks for your input. It seems to me that Air Canada might have more opportunities in the future as well.

In terms of the system with Westjet/Encore, my understanding of it is the same as loopa's.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

[pianokeys]

Canada 3000, Canadian Pacific, Pacific Western, Time Air, Queen Charlotte Airlines, Air BC, Nordair, NWTAir, Wardair, That Purple One, That Green One, That one in Vancouver, That Other Montreal One...

I just want to point out that about 70% of those airlines involved Michel Leblanc.

Anyways +RA, I friended Joe Avcanada on Facebook and I try to pay attention to job postings in Canada for pilots of all flavours (low time like you and I, experienced etc). I think the jobs are there, but like everyone here says, there not here in YYC or YEG or what not, there in places where you'd have to move to find the opportunity. As someone who's already moved 3400kms for my non aviation job, I'd move again because its worth it. And a mans gotta eat.

Why it may not be a bountiful amount, looks like the jobs are there, not here.