Getting involved to preserve our future...

[PilotDAR]

Hey AvCanada'ers, How many here read many posts, and maybe reply back with a post of their own every now and then, but that's the extent? What about the large number who just read? It's great that you're reading, but if you've chosen to read, you must like flying - so get involved!

Yeah, you go flying, but that's only a part of being involved...

We are very lucky in Canada with the freedom to fly which we enjoy, but we still are constrained by regulations - most livable, some less good. In the old days, there were aviation people who got involved, and went to Ottawa to lobby for regulations we could live with. Many of them (including myself) volunteered time to an organization to unite our effort, but sadly that organization seems to have rested on its laurels too long, and become rather irrelevant where they are needed (in my opinion).

It seems that there are some issues on GA's horizon.... Are the members of GA going to just sit back and see what the government regulates them into? Or maybe participate in making a representation to TC and CARAC as to how regulations could be tailored to still meet the "public" objective, without penalizing GA too much....

But, you don't think yourself a regulatory wizard, or you're inconveniently distant to Ottawa to pop into CARAC meetings?.. fair enough. How about some crowd funding, and nomination of eager aviation people to support our causes - one cause at a time. This is not annual dues which disappear into into high salaries and waste, this is money toward each cause.

I spent many years at CARAC meetings, often entirely on my own dime. CARAC, and reasoned representations to TC will work. Doing nothing results in getting what is handed to us like it or not.

So, a couple of challenges:

Can AvCanada become a base within which a team of people can be nominated, and carry the torch for all our interests on an issue? Issue by issue? These people do not pay their own way to Ottawa, and they do not work for nothing - (you get what you pay for in life). They take the lead of the group, and are accountable for the quality of their representation...

Next challenge, will the dedicated pilots, aircraft owners and facility owners who frequent this site, simply put a quick post up to say that they agree that representation is needed for certain issues, and they would chip in to crowd fund? (if no one is interested, the idea dies, and goes away quietly, and the government is the sole purveyor of regulation).

Finally, for those who read here and aspire to fly one day, or are just starting off in out industry, just put a post, even if it's your first, saying "Me too". This is your future we're working toward!

Understand that I, and the crowd of fliers I talk to, have owned their planes, and in many cases, their home runways and hangars for decades. We've had our fun. The changes on the horizon won't really affect us much.... But we care for you wannabes, and new pilot/owners. YOU will be affected in time. Wanna buy some property, and put in a home runway in a few years? It might not be as low cost and trouble free as it was when I did it in 1989.

I'm not posting this to save my right to fly, as much as yours. It's time to speak up, and here is a free and easy place to do it. And no, I'm really not clambering for an opportunity to get involved much myself, been there, done that. It's not to say I won't, but its time for some new blood....

[FenderManDan]

I agree and support what you said above, but just cant see clearly what are the effective tools now and in the future that we can use to make the difference in the aviation regulations decision making. All the letter/petition writing appears as pissing into the wind.

Historically, there used to be pions are in the governing body that help with their own interest to push the issues, then lobbyist, then organizations, then ........
Nothing seems to be working as the GA pilot population is mostly in the "happy years". Not much new blood is interested due to the fun to cost ratio.

If someone has a good idea what to do now and in the future. Should we turn to technology as the answer?

[timel]

Make a plan. Debate the idea on a committee of people who want to get involved on a certain topic.
Raise funds using this site : http://www.gofundme.com
When you have the money, hire the people or use the funds to do the work.
If money is left over use it for an other project, let's get an organization name, basic serious paper work as a non lucrative company, and a forum can be dedicated to projects in progress only.

I would love a law against pay for training and pay to fly (for commercial pilots), and I would not mind giving money for such a project.

[5x5]

Ok, let's step back a sec and look at where all "new blood" comes into GA (and all aviation for that matter.)

Flight schools, of course.

One of the most proactive things that many of the existing posters here could do is to stop the continual flight school bashing. For a person considering aviation to come here and read many of the threads they would think twice about starting flying lessons because:

- they would get milked since apparently all schools do that
- they would get taught by a below average pilot who knows very little due to the fact he doesn't have thousands of hours experience
- they would get taught by an even more below average instructor since it's unlikely the instructor knows anything at all about the use of a rudder having never flown a tail dragger
- the school will almost certainly mislead them to get them to sign-up and then give them no support since all the school really wants to do is take their money

Those themes have been supported by so many posts over and over it seems that they must be true. And they simply aren't. But they certainly are the kind of things that would deter someone who would otherwise be eager to get going.

Even posts not really about flight training seem to have some aspect of flight school/training bashing in them. I'm not saying that all existing schools are excellent or there isn't room for improvement, but all businesses can improve as can all individuals. That doesn't mean that all businesses or all individuals suck.

[I_Drive_Planes]

I think that this forum, with the collective knowledge and passion that reside here, could definitely serve as the catalyst for an organization that does what COPA has failed to do.

The challenge is getting the right people to step up, to generate momentum and keep it moving.

I think it's an excellent idea and I'm behind it 100%

[YYZSaabGuy]

Those themes have been supported by so many posts over and over it seems that they must be true. And they simply aren't. But they certainly are the kind of things that would deter someone who would otherwise be eager to get going.

Even posts not really about flight training seem to have some aspect of flight school/training bashing in them. I'm not saying that all existing schools are excellent or there isn't room for improvement, but all businesses can improve as can all individuals. That doesn't mean that all businesses or all individuals suck.

+1. Couldn't agree more.

[DougRonan]

There are many challenges to us as pilots, aircraft owners/operators, runway owners/operators - from government and non government. There are people in this country - like PilotDAR and I - that have been both directly and indirectly involved in fighting these battles for many years. We have a wide range of experience in aviation and are quick enough on our feet to tackle the issues that face all of us. Both of us and many others have done this in the past with quite a bit of success. The big issue as stated, is that this is not a small task and takes dedication to the cause(s) and a significant investment in time and money. Again without a strong national organization to lead the charge it’s difficult to fight these issues - it becomes a "David and Goliath" scenario.

This current legislation - the way it is written will be huge blow to aviation as whole. The unfortunate part of this knee jerk reaction by TC and the Minister is that - as has been the case since the beginning of time - the "Feds" don't understand that our sector of aviation is the starting point for the whole industry. Without that first airplane ride or first flying lesson all of aviation will suffer right from the bottom to the top. It's like having a country wide highway system with little or no feeder roads - if you can't get from your house to the highway - the highway is of no use!! How many people are going to get into flying if you have to take your first airplane ride or flying lesson at Toronto or Vancouver International at a prohibitive cost (exponentially more than it is now!)

I am very active in aviation – it’s my life - and has been since I was 14 years old, 31 year ago. When I read this regulation last week I sat in my chair for about an hour just staring straight ahead - basically stunned at the implications of this new law. As some of you may know it takes a lot to make me speechless – this news had me. In an already struggling industry to have this thrown at us is a very serious problem. It needs to be addressed in clear and concise way – it is not going to go away but I believe we can make it less restrictive and therefore less destructive to an already fragile industry.

I’ve fought battles before – maybe not as large as this or as important – but through my 7 years with that certain nameless National organization and both indirectly and directly before that – “the collective we” got a lot accomplished. Much of the freedoms we enjoy today were settled at the CARAC level. As PilotDAR said – CARAC does work – but the key is to – first of all SHOW UP, and secondly - have the right productive person standing in front of them!!

As far as where we go from here – I am open to suggestions!!

Doug Ronan

[Rookie50]

Those themes have been supported by so many posts over and over it seems that they must be true. And they simply aren't. But they certainly are the kind of things that would deter someone who would otherwise be eager to get going.

Even posts not really about flight training seem to have some aspect of flight school/training bashing in them. I'm not saying that all existing schools are excellent or there isn't room for improvement, but all businesses can improve as can all individuals. That doesn't mean that all businesses or all individuals suck.

+1. Couldn't agree more.

I couldn't disagree more.

I recently was posting on a thread here about the value I've receieved from several high time mentors in developing some of my PDM process, and discussing appropriate weather conditions etc for my single engine flying to Northern Ontario, and many other topics.

Note we aren't talking about ab initio -- hopefully spelled correctly, lol -- training. Talking post PPL, post CPL.

Nevertheless, the broad pushback I got was ALL sorts of mentoring / teaching / ect should ONLY come from your certified and stamped FTU -- and that the newly minted class 4, regardless of experience is always more equipped to guide than my 20,000 hour friends.

This attittude to me is completely mainstream. Support the FTU regardless of quality. IFR instruction without any actual experience? Stop complaining. You go outside -- it's dangerous.

Sorry I won't toe that line. Call it the way I see it.

[Cat Driver]

Nevertheless, the broad pushback I got was ALL sorts of mentoring / teaching / ect should ONLY come from your certified and stamped FTU -- and that the newly minted class 4, regardless of experience is always more equipped to guide than my 20,000 hour friends.

It has nothing to do with logic Rookie, it has everything to do with money and protecting the status quo.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Those themes have been supported by so many posts over and over it seems that they must be true. And they simply aren't. But they certainly are the kind of things that would deter someone who would otherwise be eager to get going.

Even posts not really about flight training seem to have some aspect of flight school/training bashing in them. I'm not saying that all existing schools are excellent or there isn't room for improvement, but all businesses can improve as can all individuals. That doesn't mean that all businesses or all individuals suck.

+1. Couldn't agree more.

I couldn't disagree more.

I recently was posting on a thread here about the value I've receieved from several high time mentors in developing some of my PDM process, and discussing appropriate weather conditions etc for my single engine flying to Northern Ontario, and many other topics.

Note we aren't talking about ab initio -- hopefully spelled correctly, lol -- training. Talking post PPL, post CPL.

Nevertheless, the broad pushback I got was ALL sorts of mentoring / teaching / ect should ONLY come from your certified and stamped FTU -- and that the newly minted class 4, regardless of experience is always more equipped to guide than my 20,000 hour friends.

This attittude to me is completely mainstream. Support the FTU regardless of quality. IFR instruction without any actual experience? Stop complaining. You go outside -- it's dangerous.

Sorry I won't toe that line. Call it the way I see it.

I read that thread pretty carefully. Like you, I was surprised at some of the pushback around mentoring: I've benefited from it myself and I put a lot of value on it. The fact that I disagree with some of that pushback doesn't negate the fact that there's a lot of mindless drivel posted on this site about flight training in this country: to listen to it, I'm surprised anybody lives long enough to get past their PPL (that's not a shot at you, Rookie50, I'm talking in general). I think that's the point that 5X5 was making.

It has nothing to do with logic Rookie, it has everything to do with money and protecting the status quo.

Yes, because flight training is such a lucrative endeavour, and posting on AvCanada is such an obviously terrific way to protect that market.

[DonutHole]

We need people to get into the carac process plain and simple.

that's the open door for influence.

In ame basic training we Learned about carac, the gazettes and the process. How many cpls know about that stuff? That's the important information and most people in aviation have no idea how it works.

They stop listening when it's the same guy bringing issues forward time and time again, he's not the greasy wheel that gets grease, he's the crazy guy with an Axe to grind.

The key to influence in the carac process is representation, and the more the better. A single person, or representative of a single organization (llooking at you copa) cannot advocate because they're not seen as representative. Fill that carac meeting with 50 people from across all sectors and all of a sudden it's not one or two people you can ignore.

It the points don't appear to represent broader aviation then carac can dismiss the objections, so the key is not having a person, it's having a bunch from all over saying the same thing.

Once it's through and becomes legal, it's nearly impossible to change, and it's no secret what's coming down the pipe if you read the gazette..

Here's a question. When was the last time you read a gazette?

Here's a better question, did you even know they exist?

Fix those two problems and we are on the way.

[DonutHole]

Those themes have been supported by so many posts over and over it seems that they must be true. And they simply aren't. But they certainly are the kind of things that would deter someone who would otherwise be eager to get going.

Even posts not really about flight training seem to have some aspect of flight school/training bashing in them. I'm not saying that all existing schools are excellent or there isn't room for improvement, but all businesses can improve as can all individuals. That doesn't mean that all businesses or all individuals suck.

+1. Couldn't agree more.

I couldn't disagree more.

I recently was posting on a thread here about the value I've receieved from several high time mentors in developing some of my PDM process, and discussing appropriate weather conditions etc for my single engine flying to Northern Ontario, and many other topics.

Note we aren't talking about ab initio -- hopefully spelled correctly, lol -- training. Talking post PPL, post CPL.

Nevertheless, the broad pushback I got was ALL sorts of mentoring / teaching / ect should ONLY come from your certified and stamped FTU -- and that the newly minted class 4, regardless of experience is always more equipped to guide than my 20,000 hour friends.

This attittude to me is completely mainstream. Support the FTU regardless of quality. IFR instruction without any actual experience? Stop complaining. You go outside -- it's dangerous.

Sorry I won't toe that line. Call it the way I see it.

That's a bit of a revisionist take on that thread.

[DougRonan]

Squirrel!!

[Rookie50]

DH,

This discussion reminds me of first year MBA's in my industry who attempt to convince everyone they are investment "experts". Anyone met one of those at your local bank? Here's my response to that, too. :lol

My advice -- and I think there are parallels here -- on investments is talk to the cranky old curmudgeon-- who DOESNT work at a bank -- and doesn't even think he's an expert ---- with no letters behind his name.

[DonutHole]

Have anything to add or you just gonna coat tail this one?

this isn't about whatever you and the boys are talking about, it's about how the guys in the industry (aare you even in the industry?) and those who want to advocate for positive change can do so, and that is through The carac process. If you, with your immense experience, know of an actual better way, or even a way at all, I'm all ears...

But judging from your post content in this thread, I think it's safe to say you've missed the point.

For the record though, I always respect the guy who comes up with his own opinion through research more than a guy who just parrots out what he's heard from his 'mentors'

You may or may not be right, but it's not like you have any idea why... which was one of my points in the mentor thread. Spoonfed parrots are good on the Internet, but actual thought and reason is a way more impressive asset.

full disclosure. I spent 1800 hours living and breathing airplanes, standards, cars, and completing practical labs, then I completed a total of four technicAl exams on what amounts to a lot of shIt. before I could even write the final exam, strictly on standards and law I had to complete another almost 4800 hours of actual experience and prove it with a logbook of appropriate, completed tasks. All the while I had to keep my crap straight or else I'd be on the street with nothing. In comparison, buying a call is little more impressive than getting a good prize out of a cracker jack box.... literally you can solve any obstacle with time and money, going my route I had to prove myself on multiPle levEls while being judge time and time again.

Maybe that's why the industry is in decline. So long as anybody with a pulse and a bank account can just go out and essentially buy themselves a ticket we will be stuck with more chalk and less stick.

I'm by no means king shit, but I've got a solid five years of experience in the industry.

How many years do you have in? It's possible you suit your new fish analog you've established.

[timel]

If you want to start a project, jusy start it, don't wait for avcanada to join or you will wait long.

[Rookie50]

..

[PilotDAR]

People... focus!

In less than a day, there have been 584 views of this, and yet only 15 replies, and some of those repeat contributors.

The theme here is unifying Canadian GA interests to assure collectively, we are not bullied into a lesser opportunity to fly freely. It is certain that there are well funded anti GA interests unified not in our interest, and yet an attempt to start a discussion on "our side" results in chatter largely about flying school quality!?! Big picture people!

I received a PM this morning which started "Sorry about your thread..." That AvCanada member gets it!

If the newcomers to aviation don't unify, they will find that many aspects of flying in Canada are going to evolve, and not in a way they like. When I "started" in aviation in the mid '70's I was mentored by grass roots, grass strip, grass stained knees pilot owners who could equally likely be found scrubbing the belly of their plane, or attending a meeting at TC to resolve an "issue". I was inspired by these people. We flew with great freedom and economy. As life moves along, so did they. So I guess by attrition, I've been drawn up to that fortunate station in life. I've owned my home runway and hangar for more than 25 years, and it is not under any threat. So I can sit back, and rest on my laurels if I want.

Can you?

Invest something in aviation in Canada (big picture!). Invest your emotion, your passion, your time, and some money. Or... just drive around, and see about .001% of Canada.... I wrote to the Minister of Transport, my MP, and CARAC this morning on a topic of importance to me - did you?

Need to rant satisfied - for now.....

[DonutHole]

Sorry for the derail.

Dar, maybe you could run of through the process of gaining influence.

It's a bit of a quagmire looking through the site.

I noticed that the carac link to the charter document outlining procedures is dead. I also noticed an industry heavy approach and a conspicuous lack of any mention of private general aviation. In many ways the simple wiki page is more useful and informative than the organization actual portal.

Do you have a working link, or do you have your own flow for getting in there?

[Rookie50]

Sorry Dar. I've contributed to the thread drift.

First I'm not yet up on the regulatory quagmire. But for SURE I would contribute to a crowdfunding effort for a specific issue! Sign me up.

Suppose I'm frustrated because I felt the best way I had at my level to contribute to strengthening GA was to see a community of give back in mentorship to post PPL pilots as I have been mentored. And I articulated a simple desire to see this happen.

I realize I have very little experience, but it's something above absolute zero in my type of flying, and have something to share. I'm actually intelligent enough to occasionally mentor in appropriate situations.

GA for transportation is very weak in this country compared to the US and personally I'd like to see that community strengthened, which would in turn iMO strengthen the usage of GA airports, and advocation to your point. So often at most local airports we are a bunch of separate individuals without community, or unity. If the community is strengthened hours increase, local airports have a better chance, services improve.

Not every single bit of knowledge must come from the professional pilot program people at XYZ school.

This would better happen when GA pilots stick together, learn from each other, share learned experience. Buttonville Flying Club is strong in this area. They meet every week and keep community, and often do a flight to another local airport.

I will try to encourage this going forward with the much less organized group at my local airport. There are only a few who meet currently. To strengthen GA and GA airports from closure, first they must be utilized!

BTW for the record us active participants in GA are as much a part of the "industry" as anyone else. It sure doesn't engender unity or respect to say unless one wears a uniform we aren't part of the aviation community.

[CD]

The "new" version of the CARAC Charter that describes the significant changes in the process can be found at the following link:

CARAC Management Charter and Procedures - 6th Edition - October 2013

Also, I'm not sure if it was discussed here already, but there appears to have been a change in the Aeronautics Act last year that directly relates to the NPA 2013-014 - Responsible Aerodrome Development:

Aeronautics Act

General Regulatory Powers

4.9 The Governor in Council may make regulations respecting aeronautics and, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, may make regulations respecting

(k.1) the prohibition of the development or expansion of aerodromes or any change to the operation of aerodromes;

(k.2) the consultations that must be carried out by the proponent of an aerodrome before its development or by the operator of an aerodrome before its expansion or any change to its operation;

[PilotDAR]

I felt the best way I had at my level to contribute to strengthening GA was to see a community of give back in mentorship to post PPL pilots as I have been mentored.

And Rookie, it is those new PPL's who have the most to gain or lose with this situation. THEY should come to the table, and support the efforts, whose results will most secure their flying future.

This thread has 20 replies, from not as many as twenty members, and 800 views! So for every 1 person who spoke up at all, 39 did not.

That's disappointing, but not new to me. I don't expect riots in the streets, but a bit of expressed interest would be nice. How do we impress upon the quiet members that they have the most to lose, and they will, if they do not demonstrate their interest to CARAC/TC?

It is those pilot owners who now have huge costs if they want an approval to change a prop, or to carry an external load, because no one would express concern to CARAC/TC 20 years ago when the regulation was about to be changed, and I asked for support. Now we have social media, and I can reach ten times as many people, to find out how many more are also willing to just let it happen around them!

Hundreds of viewers who did not post here, your voice is just as important as those who did!

[Rookie50]

I felt the best way I had at my level to contribute to strengthening GA was to see a community of give back in mentorship to post PPL pilots as I have been mentored.

And Rookie, it is those new PPL's who have the most to gain or lose with this situation. THEY should come to the table, and support the efforts, whose results will most secure their flying future.

This thread has 20 replies, from not as many as twenty members, and 800 views! So for every 1 person who spoke up at all, 39 did not.

That's disappointing, but not new to me. I don't expect riots in the streets, but a bit of expressed interest would be nice. How do we impress upon the quiet members that they have the most to lose, and they will, if they do not demonstrate their interest to CARAC/TC?

It is those pilot owners who now have huge costs if they want an approval to change a prop, or to carry an external load, because no one would express concern to CARAC/TC 20 years ago when the regulation was about to be changed, and I asked for support. Now we have social media, and I can reach ten times as many people, to find out how many more are also willing to just let it happen around them!

Hundreds of viewers who did not post here, your voice is just as important as those who did!

Dar; Agree. I'd simply like to encourage the new PPL's that have come along. You don't need to stay in the patch, or in the province. You can do a cross continent trip, safely. I'll help, so will others here. Need to keep GA alive and healthy.

[photofly]

This thread has 20 replies, from not as many as twenty members, and 800 views! So for every 1 person who spoke up at all, 39 did not. !

Point of order: that's 800 views, not 800 individuals. Every time you reload the page to see if anyone posted, that's another view. So perhaps only 50 or 60 individuals. AvCanada doesn't have *that* many regular silent readers.

[New_PIC]

First read-through for me, just now. I would quite likely kick in to support representation on some issues. I'm too far away and lack the background to make these arguments myself.