Looking for twin engine flying boat

[tractor driver]

Hey Guys,
we have a project where we'll be using a twin engine flying boat for the season. We'd like to lease / purchase something along the lines of a Twin Bee or Widgeon. A Goose would be on the large end of the scale.
If anyone has any information please p.m. me or post here.
Thanks!

g

[lownslow]

Is a flying boat required or would floats cut it? I seem to recall one of the early Piper twins could be put on floats, or if you want to really knock down your operating costs (and payload) you could look for a Lancer...

[tractor driver]

Thanks lownslow!

the program requires a twin flying boat. We'll be operating it for approx. 150-200hrs May - Aug. Hoping to find a lead on a C registered machine by next week.
I'm not certain just of how much I can speak of the program on this forum just yet, but it's a really cool project.


g

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The Widgeon is a very demanding aircraft to fly.

Do you have someone capable of flying one?

[tractor driver]

Hey .,
excellent to hear from you!
I appreciate your concern, but yes, our people are quite capable. Any information you could dig up would be great!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If you are looking for a Grumman widgeon were a few for sale some years ago.

I just want to reinforce my opinion that the Widgeon is the most demanding certified twin engine Flying boat avaliable in North America.

I have been flying seaplanes for a long time and I only know of one Canadian pilot who may still be flying with experience on one.

By the way I was qualified on the Widgeon many, many years ago so I know how demanding they are to fly.

[oldncold]

there is one listed on the controller website www.controller.com widgeon can registered I think Calgary area broker

[!!!oli!!!]

this one here.
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 185429.htm

[tractor driver]

oldncold / .,
sorry for being away for a bit. Had to do some aviating.
We will contact the individual from the controller. Thanks oldncold. All the connections are greatly appreciated!
PASCO has also indicated they have a Goose that might work.
Ideally we're looking for a leasable a/c for the required time. ., you're a walking library when it comes to these things. All your inputs are looked forward to. To ease your mind a bit, our qualifications include USN test pilot, NASA Mission specialist, that kind of thing. We're aware of the challenges. Perhaps we could talk a bit when appropriate on aspects of the program that your expertise is contributory. I'm sure there are many.
Again, any information regarding availability is what we're looking for at this time.

Cheers!

g

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Tractor Driver.

The Goose is a wonderful work horse and its water handling characteristics are far better than the Widgeon thus can handle bigger wave and swell action.

One more bit of advice.

Flying boats have unique water handling issues that can only be learned by proper training and experience flying them.

One of my students was France's first astronaut and he flew the space shuttle.....he had exactly the same problems learning to fly a large flying boat as any other pilot......

.....so....

Get good training if you have no flying boat experience no matter who you are.

Pasco has some of the best Goose pilots on earth.

[AuxBatOn]

USAF TPS and USN TPS normally introduce students to flying boats....

It's an airplanea, it flies. Use low gains and you're normally fine.

[tractor driver]

Thank you for the discussion and the interest in the forum. Although it wasn't my intent, it seems we've created some interest in flying boats and their associated unique attributes.
Excellent!
If you google AVIC TA 600, you'll catch on where we're coming from.

g

[fish4life]

Not sure a lot about this one but looks very interesting

http://www.dornierseaplane.com/content/seastar

[tractor driver]

Thanks fish4life. As you say, interesting airplane, but not the configuration we require.

[Notta Simfalt]

Lookin for a bird dog, I think.

[Strega]

Cat,

What is the nature of the widgeon being hard to fly?

[Antique Pilot]

The cheapest part about a Goose/Widgeon operation will be the initial purchase price of the aircraft. The cost of maintenance after that will be formidable. A very wealthy gent that I know had a G44 back in the 1980's. He got rid of it. Said he couldn't afford the maintenance.

AP

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Cat,

What is the nature of the widgeon being hard to fly?

It has a tendency to porpoise if misshandled especially in swells or big waves and can become uncontrollable unless proper recovery is established as soon as the porpoise starts.

[PilotDAR]

It's an airplane, it flies. Use low gains and you're normally fine.

"Normally", perhaps. Untrained in a flying boat - no. The insurer will tell you - while they're telling you that they won't cover you. Nothing is better than competent training in a flying boat. Once you have that competent training, and appropriate practice, nothing is better than a flying boat.

What is the nature of the widgeon being hard to fly?

Yes, I know I'm not Cat..... (and I have not flown a Wideon), but my other extensive flying boat experience reinforces what . says. If you let a flying boat porpoise, it's going to get bad fast. Quite different to a floatplane, but better in many ways, once you get competent in it.

[tractor driver]

Hey Guys,
talked to the Widgeon owner. Not sure if that ones going to work out this time. We also have a potential arrangement for a Twin Bee out of the U.S., but considerable paperwork could slow the process down enough to miss the time window. Still hoping for a C registration.
Got the go ahead to discuss a little more about our project, so perhaps that could further our search. You can google us @ itps canada.
We actually only need the flying boat for about 7 weeks flying, but would like to have it around longer for various instrumentation evaluations. We own a number of aircraft, but the scope is such that we would under utilize many machines if we owned everything. Thus the lease is desirable for the flying boat.
Thanks again for the interest that is developing. Hopefully it will lead to finding the right machine!

g

[AuxBatOn]

PilotDAR,

I am pretty sure any qualified Test Pilots will not have any issues getting insured... That's what they are trained for....

So yes, use low gains, fly the airplane will work...

[AuxBatOn]

Cat,

What is the nature of the widgeon being hard to fly?

Anything Cat has flown is difficult to fly? Or so it seems....

[Meatservo]

That's not a fair comment. Have you flown a flying boat? I've been trying to figure out how . deserves your scorn for suggesting that someone get a thorough check-out on a Widgeon before trying to operate it.

I have flown with a pilot who was trained in the USA at the navy test-pilot school. We were testing some relatively simple modifications to a popular conventional-geared single-engine aircraft and he wanted me to fly with him because he hadn't flown a "taildragger" since school and he said he wouldn't mind some circuits to get used to it again. He did NOT heave his giant balls on the table and make an announcement about the superiority of his training making any further training unnecessary.

I have not flown a flying-boat but I have flown a floatplane said by many to exhibit milder boat-like tendencies, and even on THAT relatively benign seaplane, I don't care who you are, if you want to fly mine, you will get a check-out whether you need one or not.

So lay off on ., will ya? I'll bet the Widgeon actually is a tricky little devil if you're not used to boats, and his advice is valid. I would imagine that a real test pilot or a NASA astronaut probably understands the value of a checkout. If the information is already there, there's no reason, other than naked ego, to ignore it and try to find out for yourself because you're above a little friendly advice. Geez.

[PilotDAR]

PilotDAR,

I am pretty sure any qualified Test Pilots will not have any issues getting insured... That's what they are trained for....

So yes, use low gains, fly the airplane will work...

Well, the qualified test pilot who has inquired of me about training with me in my flying boat will not be "getting insured" that easily. Indeed, I know for a fact, that without a minimum of 25 hours on type, insurance is not offered. Getting insured on these aircraft is not as free and easy as you imply...

"Test pilots" are not known for just going flying in a type new to them, without appropriate familiarization training, when it is available.

Would you advise a pilot to use "low gains" on the pedals while handing a light taildragger in a crosswind? When we flight test an aircraft, we like to use appropriate control inputs. "Low gain" won't cut it in a taildragger, nor a flying boat - that's how untrained pilots bend them!

There are types I will be insured to test fly, based upon my skills and experience, there are other types, for which I will seek type or refresher training, then be insured and test fly, and there are many types I am not at all familiar with, and don't offer to test fly. It's a part of being a responsible pilot...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Another very serious consideration one should know when discussing the need for proper training on aircraft such as the Widgeon and other large flying boats is many people have been killed after losing control of them during water operations.

To down play the need for proper training in such aircraft is giving out the false impression that these are just another airplane that any good pilot can fly without training.

I am quite frankly very disappointed that anyone who claims to be knowledgeable about flying would even suggest these aircraft are easy to fly without proper training.

Remember....flying boats combine both aerodynamics and hydrodynamics and unless you understand their relationships you can kill yourself.