Time to end SPIFR?

[Illya Kuryakin]

Just a thought, but wouldn't brining an end to SPIFR make aviation safer (not bullet proof, but safer) and create new opportunities for new low time pilots? Just forcing bag run operations to fly two crew would do wonders for employment for the youngsters. (Of course you'd still be competive..the other companies have to bid with two crew as well) Singe pilots should be restricted to VFR only ops. Bird dog pilots for fire suppression, for example, or freight operations under day VFR only. Private individuals, or corporate aviation, obviously fall under a different umbrella, but for commercial operations, I don't think an argument can be made, where two pilots are not safer than one.
As always...I'm just tossing this out there for your thoughts.
Illya

[Roar]

In my opinion it would create more positions but would also exacerbate the problem of poverty wages for those FO's.

[Blueontop]

At least they would be flying making poverty wages

[oldncold]

Are you saying illya commercial ops or all spifr

Because private ifr is very practical. For small biz. (non- 604 aircraft . Especially since many biz aircraft have been upgraded with modern avionics. Most biz owners private fly there airplanes or have professional do it for them and take a lot of pride in. Maintaining the aircraft well

[turbo-prop]

Bird dogs can take off IFR to go to a fire.

[SuperchargedRS]

Just a thought, but wouldn't brining an end to SPIFR make aviation safer (not bullet proof, but safer) and create new opportunities for new low time pilots? Just forcing bag run operations to fly two crew would do wonders for employment for the youngsters. (Of course you'd still be competive..the other companies have to bid with two crew as well) Singe pilots should be restricted to VFR only ops. Bird dog pilots for fire suppression, for example, or freight operations under day VFR only. Private individuals, or corporate aviation, obviously fall under a different umbrella, but for commercial operations, I don't think an argument can be made, where two pilots are not safer than one.
As always...I'm just tossing this out there for your thoughts.
Illya

How much single pilot IFR flying have you done?

Are you a socialist?

First off forcing private industry to make jobs is a loosing proposition everyday.

Second, I fly on demand single pilot IFR in a PC12, I have zero idea what the second dude would bring to the plate, maybe he could hold my jacket and coffee, just isn't needed, won't make the flight more safe, or get much out of sitting around.

Heck why not require a crew of 4 for all aviation ops

[trampbike]

I don't think an argument can be made, where two pilots are not safer than one.

Sometimes, 2 pilots are not significantly safer (enough to offset the cost and other drawbacks) than one.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Oldncold....mentioned biz and private ops in original post

Turbo-prop.....bird dogging isn't exactly a big enough concern to make much of a difference in employment numbers. This and the time requirements for bird dog pilots (IMHO opinion, ridiculous) preclude new low timers....plus, I'm sure they'd grovel for exemptions to the rule m

Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

I don't think an argument can be made, where two pilots are not safer than one.

Sometimes, 2 pilots are not significantly safer (enough to offset the cost and other drawbacks) than one.

Keep dreaming that dream. Do two crew aircraft have accidents? Of course they do.
As for the almighty $$$$$, these companies are paying these poor low timers to work ramps anyway. I'm suggesting we force them to put them in airplanes?
Illya

[fish4life]

The problem is instead of giving these poor Navajo pilots and IFR companies are just going to start pushing MVFR.

[Illya Kuryakin]

How much single pilot IFR flying have you done?

Are you a socialist?

First off forcing private industry to make jobs is a loosing proposition everyday.

:

1. Quite a bit. Including Metros running night freight. I enjoy it.
2. Aren't we all?
3. Yup. Bad idea. Forcing an end to SPIFR and creating employment while certainly making safety a concern over money.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

The problem is instead of giving these poor Navajo pilots and IFR companies are just going to start pushing MVFR.

Might force TC to start violating pilots for operating VFR in IMC. A welcome side effect to the bull Shiite that goes on today. Again, making grass roots operations safer.
Illya

[SuperchargedRS]

How much single pilot IFR flying have you done?

Are you a socialist?

First off forcing private industry to make jobs is a loosing proposition everyday.

:

1. Quite a bit. Including Metros running night freight. I enjoy it.
2. Aren't we all?
3. Yup. Bad idea. Forcing an end to SPIFR and creating employment while certainly making safety a concern over money.
Illya

That's a surprise

I'm sure as heck not

And it is a bad idea, you won't make worth while jobs, instead of paying a SPIFR pilot, say 60k, they'll pay the right seat pax/pilot 20k and the pilot 40k, good job.

I've never flown the old metro, but in the newer stuff, it just would be more chatter, I've had ZERO times where a second pilot would have made a significant difference. On a PC12, KA, 208 or the like, it's just not a two crew kinda aircraft.

You want to make jobs, decrease taxes, shrink govt and promote entrepreneurship, when you rely on government and laws to make jobs, you're setting yourself up for failure, just ask the old commie states.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If single pilot IFR is just as safe as two pilots why don"t airlines get rid of the F.O. and for long hauls get rid of both the F.O. and Cruise pilot?

That would save a whole lot of money for the airlines.

[iflyforpie]

You want to make jobs, decrease taxes, shrink govt and promote entrepreneurship,

Actually, the number of times THAT has failed is quite considerable as well. Corporate socialism kills motivation and innovation as surely as welfare does. Companies write themselves big dividend cheques, outsource or import their labour, and then wonder why Joe Unemployed doesn't buy their widgets. Then comes the double-whammy of low tax revenue combined with bailouts.

just ask the old commie states.

Like the old commie state that has failed at capitalism just as badly? I'd blame the state more than the system it was under.

[SuperchargedRS]

If single pilot IFR is just as safe as two pilots why don"t airlines get rid of the F.O. and for long hauls get rid of both the F.O. and Cruise pilot?

That would save a whole lot of money for the airlines.

So you would want to see the same crew requirments for a PC12 as a 747?

I can tell you from flying single pilot IFR, you're just adding too many cooks to the kitchen in the office of a Pilatus etc

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I can tell you from flying single pilot IFR, you're just adding too many cooks to the kitchen in the office of a Pilatus etc

We all have different ideas about flying, I have done a bit of single pilot IFR and a bit of multi crew IFR.

I find multi crew to be less work and safer.

[trampbike]

If single pilot IFR is just as safe as two pilots why don"t airlines get rid of the F.O. and for long hauls get rid of both the F.O. and Cruise pilot?

Ok, find at least one person on this thread that made such a generalization.
Looks like you are responding to a straw man you just fabricated.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Looks like you are responding to a straw man you just fabricated.

I was pointing out that having two pilots increases the safety factor.....

..providing they use proper multi crew procedures.

Is my thinking flawed?

[Illya Kuryakin]

SuperchargedRS, I don't know you, or your operation, but most PC12 flights I've seen are 2 crew. Of course you CAN single pilot the thing, just most don't.
As for the capt making 40K and the FO making 20K goes, you don't have to take the job.
Cheers
Illya

[photofly]

If single pilot IFR is just as safe as two pilots why don"t airlines get rid of the F.O. and for long hauls get rid of both the F.O. and Cruise pilot?

That would save a whole lot of money for the airlines.

They need someone to - uh - to fly the plane when the captain goes to the bathroom.

[Rockie]

My $0.02

Two pilots working well together with a good set of SOP's provide what the military calls "mutual support". Of course it's safer, and if the other guy is just there to hang up your coat you not only don't know how to properly utilize a crew environment, you don't even get the concept.

That's not to say SPIFR can't be safe, just that it's safer with two provided it's done correctly. Should SPIFR be banned? Depends I guess on the airplane and the airspace and environment they operate in.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Two pilots working well together with a good set of SOP's provide what the military calls "mutual support". Of course it's safer, and if the other guy is just there to hang up your coat you not only don't know how to properly utilize a crew environment, you don't even get the concept.

And those who don't get the concept can sometimes be difficult to move into the two crew concept and are best left to fly alone.

[Rockie]

Two pilots working well together with a good set of SOP's provide what the military calls "mutual support". Of course it's safer, and if the other guy is just there to hang up your coat you not only don't know how to properly utilize a crew environment, you don't even get the concept.

And those who don't get the concept can sometimes be difficult to move into the two crew concept and are best left to fly alone.

Yup.

[ahramin]

Where's the data? How many accidents in the last 10 years might have been prevented if someone was warming the right seat? Is single pilot IFR a problem?

In the 703 world, how do single pilot ops accident rates compare to two crew ops?