Unions

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rigpiggy
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Unions

Post by rigpiggy »

Rumor has it a certain AC tier 3 has a union drive going on.

1. Don't go the Georgian way ie: pilots only not the aircraft groomer voting on your package.

2. Companies get the union they deserve. If you didn't want a union treat your people right in the first place.
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CID
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Re: Unions

Post by CID »

I hate unions. I usually just pick them out of my burger or pizza.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Unions

Post by iflyforpie »

I love onions, but I hate unions. They kill motivation, compress wages, protect the weak and inept, punish the hard working and innovative, lower productivity, discourage investment, export jobs by making labour costs too high, import TFWs because they drive up inflation, and force all the rest of us to pay more for less.
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altiplano
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Re: Unions

Post by altiplano »

I hate generalisations:

They are for small minded, simple, uniformed, prejudice, insular, little, petty, provincial mouth-breathers.

They do everyone a disservice, just like a Fox News sound-bite...
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timel
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Re: Unions

Post by timel »

As an example, some rest periods are more "permissive" in 703-704 because of a union then Transport Canada (press to reset button) regulations, in my opinion those union rest time are only the strict minimum a pilot truly needs.

There are stories where pilots are pushed to go fly and are threatened with their jobs if they don't go, guess what, no unions.

Of course there are always abusive unions that refrain pilots from initiative and performance, there are good and bad unions. Like someone said, you deserve the one you get. Generally if employees are happy at work, they will go beyond the convention to help the operator when necessary.

Small groups of pilots have to go with Teamsters or Unifor (which have no expertise for pilots, one less ever than the other) because the ALPA does not bother including small groups of pilots.
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Unions

Post by Liquid Charlie »

Unions -- best thing for airlines that already have a group of lifers, is a carrier where people could work their whole careers and has a group of 100 plus pilots -- I must say working with a collective agreement is the best for both sides but a union isn't magic, it won't instantly fix problems and is only as good as the people who are willing to get involved. We all get upset with companies who pay sh1t wages, work their crews to the bone, disregard safety issues and fire you or discipline people for company culture. Pilots need rights and a way to protect those rights.

With progressive management and a good union presence airlines do well -- it's nice to have set rules of engagement - it's a miss conception that unions only benefit the "weak link" - I always found it very strange that the nay sayers seemed run to the union when they had their asses in hot water - does a union cost a company money - certainly -- does it cost the pilots -- well ya -- but after tax deductions it's a small price to pay for the services. It's a thankless job trying to "protect" a bunch of Alpha personalities from themselves and unless you have very thick skin it will wear you down and burn you out -- unless there is a group willing to do the for the most part thankless job. The union will fade to obscurity and people will think exactly what the first few posters wrote -- the company will then pounce right on that apathy and of course the union has failed it's executive and will take the blame for all the short comings -- it's hard work and can be rewarding but herding a bunch of cats does become tiring -- :smt040
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pollyperkins
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Re: Unions

Post by pollyperkins »

[quote="

They are for small minded, simple, uniformed, prejudice, insular, little, petty, provincial mouth-breathers.

...[/quote]


This was going to be my definition of what unions are...
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altiplano
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Re: Unions

Post by altiplano »

∆ ∆ ∆ ∆
Mouth breather...
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SuperchargedRS
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Re: Unions

Post by SuperchargedRS »

Unions are earned...and not in a good way

If your company has a union it's probably because the company screwed the workers in the past and likley the workers tried to screw the company too.


Thing is most large companies don't get to be large companies without earning a union or two.



I've worked for small operations without unions, some where the boss was rather hot headed, I'm now working for a large company with a union, honestly it's give and take, I don't have too much of a preference ether way, I act the same ether way, and seem to get paid and keep my job ether way.
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CID
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Re: Unions

Post by CID »

I hate generalisations
That's odd. "Generalizing" is what unions are expert at. They classify people in a manner in which everyone in the same classification is paid the same regardless of their actual experience and capability. Remember, years of service (seniority) does not equal experience or skill level. Unions are financed by a percentage of your wage. With that intensive, there will never be a union who won't "fight" for a raise and try to convince their flock of sheep that they are worth it.
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Rockie
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Re: Unions

Post by Rockie »

Unions are a blunt instrument made necessary by blunt corporations, but even with unions the scales are overwhelmingly tipped in the employers favour.
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New_PIC
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Re: Unions

Post by New_PIC »

CID wrote: ... They classify people in a manner in which everyone in the same classification is paid the same regardless of their actual experience and capability. ...
Not necessarily true. I work under a union, though not in an aviation field. My job classification is sub-divided into multiple classes: 1, 2, etc., and within those classes the pay rate comes from a range depending on experience. People usually move up in classification too, again, with experience.
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teacher
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Re: Unions

Post by teacher »

I've worked for both union and non union air services. I'd take a union any day of the week. I did not appreciate having my job under the gun for not complying with management attempts to break CARs rules. Or being pushed on duty rest and being told take it or leave it if I complained. The list goes on. Good luck with the drive, unions are as strong as those in them and as reasonable as those who make the demands as well. Be reasonable in your demands and enjoy the protection from corrupt management that a union provides.
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Heliian
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Re: Unions

Post by Heliian »

ya well, if you can't beat em, join em. I hope nobody complaining about unions are also complaining about shit wages. Unions are getting employees a better wage and better benefits.
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Flyboycanada80
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Re: Unions

Post by Flyboycanada80 »

Heliian wrote:ya well, if you can't beat em, join em. I hope nobody complaining about unions are also complaining about shit wages. Unions are getting employees a better wage and better benefits.
+1

Companies abuse pilots because some pilots will work for nothing and there is a line of guys there to replace them. I have worked under both and there is a night and day difference between the company with the union. Pay, benefits, protection from management, etc. You need to give your head a shake if you are against unions in aviation. I know pilots are a canabalistic group but come on? Some of the comments on here are disappointing.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Unions

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

. Pay, benefits, protection from management, etc.
I have been in aviation management for many decades.

I can not recall ever having a pilot who was a good employee needing protection from me.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
timel
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Re: Unions

Post by timel »

Unions protect us, few pilots are constantly trying to bypass and go ahead of others by any means, it includes paying for training, accepting lower wages, bitching at others and acting like hypocrites.

Unions are not perfect, seniority systems are not perfect, but at least it protects us from this people driving the profession down.
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Unions

Post by Liquid Charlie »

I have been in aviation management for many decades.

I can not recall ever having a pilot who was a good employee needing protection from me.
Ah Charles -- it's usually the bean counters who we need protection from ---- :smt040
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MUSKEG
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Re: Unions

Post by MUSKEG »

. what you said can be true but to often the definition of "good" is a moving target and one was left with the impression that although what you did was alright it never was " good enough"
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toelessjoe
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Re: Unions

Post by toelessjoe »

This company was pretty much begging for a third party to step in.
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bronson
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Re: Unions

Post by bronson »

There are three reasons for forming a union. Bad management, bad management and bad management.
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The Raven
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Re: Unions

Post by The Raven »

. . wrote:
. Pay, benefits, protection from management, etc.
I have been in aviation management for many decades.

I can not recall ever having a pilot who was a good employee needing protection from me.
.,

Take a look at the quotes at the bottom of your post. I will repeat them here:

The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.


The problem is that many pilots working for non-unionized companies have found themselves fired because they made a decision not to fly. A union protects against that.

Cheers,

The Raven

ps...Maybe you are a good employer. Unfortunately there are numerous bad employers who abuse and intimidate young pilots and as a result poor decisions are made by said pilots.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Unions

Post by iflyforpie »

You shouldn't need a union to keep you from flying for assholes. Never worked a union job in my life... and not once was my decision to not fly even questioned.
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The Raven
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Re: Unions

Post by The Raven »

iflyforpie wrote:You shouldn't need a union to keep you from flying for assholes. Never worked a union job in my life... and not once was my decision to not fly even questioned.
Good for you. You are one of the lucky ones. What advice would you give to a young pilot who found himself (or herself) on the unemployment line because he/she refused a trip due to weather or maintenance? Don't tell me that the young pilot should complain to Transport Canada. We both know that can be an arduous process if taken on individually. It is an easier process if the pilot has the backing of a union.
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CID
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Re: Unions

Post by CID »

There are three reasons for forming a union. Bad management, bad management and bad management.
Not necessarily. I saw one dude who came from a union shop to a non union shop and the first thing he tried to do was convince everyone they were unhappy and needed a union. He was a lazy worker but he worked hard at figuring out how to make the most money with the least effort even when it meant reducing productivity to unsustainable levels.

There is a Canadian MRO that closed it's doors recently, not because of lack of busihess, because the unionized work force had been so underproductive in a strong union evironment so long that they had no concepf if work ethic or customer service. The bulk of people I've spoken to that tried hiring the laid off workers were very dissipointed with their attitudes and work output.

Unions have pretty much killed many unskilled labour jobs in Canada and they are eroding skilled trade jobs too.
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