Is it only Sunwing?

[trey kule]

I read thread after thread where I get the sense that the only airline using TFWs is Sunwing?
The people who post using desparaging names for the company, call them scumbags or worse, and those championing for elimination of TFWs never seem to mention other companies lately.

So is Sunwings the only company?

It would be dissapointing to think that there are other airlines doing this and the focus on Sunwings was simply a targeted attack from a competitor. But their name specifically does pop up in the title of many threads. And only passing mention of other companies that may be doing it.

[aerosexual]

No it's not only Sunwing. There was a recent and actually informative thread which showed all the other companies making use of the TFW program for their hiring. In fact, it is my understanding that Canjet was the first actual airline to use the program in order to bring in TFW pilots on behalf of Transat Vacations. Sunwing objected to the practice but the use of the program was deemed legal and appropriate. Sunwing is only guilty of making use of this program the most successfully ever since. I guess if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, and then beat 'em at their own game!

A really good example of how there is a strong campaign against Sunwing is when Gilles posted a thread on another forum outlining the history of TFW pilots in Canada. In his tirade he failed to even mention the involvement of Canjet and Transat Vacations completely. Seeing as how they were the first to make use of this, it would be an important part of the story.

What a lot of people don't understand is that most Sunwing pilots want the same that most Canadian pilots want - a proper reciprocal arrangement whereby equal numbers of pilots go to Europe as to those that come to Canada. But the constant attacks by a couple of pilots from competing airlines and the use of derogatory terms towards Sunwing pilots puts them on their own internal fight through their union, rather than together with their peers across the industry. This has a negative effect overall despite what some perceive to be as "fighting the good fight."

It seems that every little thing is used against Sunwing pilots, and despite trying to explain certain things, they keep coming up over and over again. A good example is why there aren't any seasonal Canadian captains. The reason is that when Canadian seasonal Canadian pilots were introduced at Sunwing, it was considered an entry-level position. Since the union and the company agreed to not allowing Direct Entry Captains at Sunwing anymore, this made sense. Now that there are seasonal Canadian pilots returning year after year, it makes sense to discuss a mechanism to incorporate Canadian seasonal captains, and there are those in the pilot group, the union and the company that want to make this happen. Other recent examples include the ridiculous thread on the pilot interviewing process, or the suggestion that the DFO quit due to the TFW program. It's all absurd, tiring and unproductive.

Frankly, I've said it before, if we all worked together more cohesively, more could be done to "fight the good fight." But as long as there is a campaign with either false or misrepresented information, the BS will continue.

[sluggo]

What you have to realize is that the right intentions are indeed behind this push for fair, politically responsible and effective action. I get the sense you understand that. As good a tool as these forums are, it is also worth being aware they are particularly susceptible to a compromised quality of content (the said "BS"). If we are big enough to do so, we will be looking right through the clutter of impertinent bashing and to the core of the issue. This is none other than the abuse of the TFWP to the detriment of the Canadian pilot profession.

It seems to some that this is an unfair attack against Sunwing when, in fact, they are only currently in the spotlight because they are the Canadian aviation industry's most significant TFWP abuser at this time. Being in their position, it's understandable that Sunwing's pilots will find the progressive attention fatiguing but, really, it is not supposed to be directed at them. You can appreciate that the community is also very tired of seeing this abuse continue year after year, despite all the well-intended efforts to stop it. Yes, other similar operators have (not exactly commendably) applied TFWs in varying capacities in the past but we sure need to move past this subjective finger-pointing stage and act collectively if we want to realize the desired outcome ... true corporate responsibility and true federal accountability.

We have all seen this go on for far too long. I think we all want this abuse to finally stop, whether we fly for a competitor or the subjected company itself. Protect our profession for now and for the future. Ultimately all Canadian airlines will come and go. I'm sure we can agree that Canadian pilots' jobs shouldn't.

[Old fella]

I never worked in the airline industry in the course of 35+yrs working, having said that I do not remember this(hiring foreign pilots) ever being an issue with any of the major carriers like AC, CAI, CP, Wardair etc. and as well regionals like PWA, EPA, Nordair - I am going back a few yrs. even with the so called deregulation that spawned locals like Air Nova, Air Atlantic and others in the 80's I can't remember this being an issue either.

There has always being enough of our citizens available to fill any pilot positions regardless of experience. Just my thoughts.

[Takeoff OK]

Just to clarify something here: In what universe is one company allowed to tell another company that they contract lift from who they can and cannot hire to provide that lift? Somebody please enlighten me, or stop blaming Transat for Canjet's use of TFWs.

[trey kule]

Gilles...is that you?

I am not sure of the revelance of your clarification or question, or whatever it was.

My OP was a result of seeing Sunwings name both as a topic and in the body of so many threads. The sense I got was that this was very much a targeted attack on a company rather than the more generic issue of TFWs.

One of the major issues was the distinction between type ratings and what qualifies a pilot.
Sunwing, or any other company, did not make those distinctions. The good folks at Transport Canada did. So to claim that this or that pilot is really qualified certainly appeals to the masses, but in reality, not quite the way it is. The whole issue of group and type ratings need to be taken up with TC, as a change there would mean a larger number of "qualified" pilots to meet the requirements and reduce the number of TFWs. Pilot's firing off resume then spouting off to the media, really are doing nothing for the cause and are relying on public ignorance not to understand the specifics.

I am not certain why, but these threads, instead of trying to understand the issues in a balanced fashion and work together, turn into company bashing and rather nastiness. Not a great way to make progress.

[Dh8Classic]

The nail has been hit on the head. There have been other companies listed here that hire TFW's but Gilles pounds on Sunwing over and over.

Why....

Not because he cares about the jobs of Canadian pilots but because he cares about the jobs of Air Transat pilots and himself. It is a kill the competition strategy under the innocent guise of caring about us(with the ironic twist that more Canadians qualify overall for SW than AT).

Does anybody really believe that Gilles would be fighting so hard for us in this obsessive manner if the main culprit in all this was Cargojet. Not too likely.

[Mr. 3Green]

There have been other companies listed here that hire TFW's but Gilles pounds on Sunwing over and over.

Who else is hiring 105 TFW's next year?

[mbav8r]

Regardless of Gilles motive, does anyone really think Sunwing is using less TFWs this year because they decided on their own they will or the pressure from Gilles and to some extent ALPA?
Is ALPA lobbying for only Transat Pilots?
This is a cancer on the Canadian industry and if left unchecked, again regardless of motives, will spread and cause loss of jobs or at the very least a recycling of jobs, either way, not good.
To answer the original question, Sunwing is the biggest and most prominent abuser of this and will continue to be the example until they stop or some other company becomes the main problem.
Here's a question for you, Trey, do you think Sunwing would continue to use this questionable practice, with all the negative publicity, if there wasn't a very tangible advantage?

[timel]

I wonder what it would be right now if Gilles wouldn't have been hammering constantly on this tfw issue?

[trey kule]

Well, I had to give your question some thought, mostly because in it you called it a "questionable" practice. It makes it hard to offer as impartial an answer as I would like to give when you include such a qualifier in your question.

The answer is, I do not know. I did however, a long time ago, suggest that it was part of Sunwing's long term plans and as they evolved it would trend as it has. Make of that what you will..

The only people that can really properly answer that question is Sunwings management.

any claim to the contrary, in my opinion, tells more about the person making it than the truth of the answer.

I believe there are many companies (aviation) requesting and/ or using TFWs. And as far as the aviation sector there has been a great deal of horn blowing and taking credit for what was predicted to occur without any intercession......my previous posts on the subject are searchable.

To say it again. My OP was with regard to the constant mentioning of pretty much only Sunwings, and particularily in regard to the omission of some other companies in the history of using TFWs.

Sinwing, in my opinion, just played the game better, despite the name calling, and suggesting what they did was criminal.

The use of TFWs will continue to decrease I believe, not because of any particular individual or organization, but because as their business evolves they will not need them. It takes time.

[frog]

Trey kule :

Sin Wing ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I read thread after thread where I get the sense that the only airline using TFWs is Sunwing?
The people who post using for the company, call them scumbags or worse, and those championing for elimination of TFWs never seem to mention other companies lately.

So is Sunwings the only company?

It would be dissapointing to think that there are other airlines doing this and the focus on Sunwings was simply a targeted attack from a competitor. But their name specifically does pop up in the title of many threads. And only passing mention of other companies that may be doing it.

Sinwing, in my opinion, just played the game better, despite the name calling, and suggesting what they did was criminal.

This guy attacks me for putting the name of Sunwing in the title of some threads, and for using "desparaging names' for the company, which I never did by the way.

In in the process, he does both........

Priceless......

[pelmet]

Sinwing, in my opinion, just played the game better, despite the name calling, and suggesting what they did was criminal.

This guy attacks me for putting the name of Sunwing in the title of some threads, and for using "desparaging names' for the company, which I never did by the way.

In in the process, he does both........

Priceless......

The U is beside the I on my keyboard. Anybody can figure out how this happened if they can be a pilot. But that being said....It looks like we have an example of how a new hilarious term can be created.

Sinwing......there could be so many reasons why.

[mbav8r]

Treykule, I do remember from past discussions you predicting the eventual decrease, however there is absolutely no way to say for sure. The fact is there is and has been pressure from many sides, including government departments telling Sunwing they have to reduce the amount of TFWs and they are still crying foul, claiming training backlogs etc...
Bottom line, if left to their own devices, I still firmly believe they would have expanded the practice to the detriment of all Canadian airlines, leaving them a choice of going out of business or playing the same game, not good for Canadian pilots. You know the ones with 37 type ratings who are not employed, yet Sunwing has only commited to hiring approximately half of and still bring in TFWs.
I'm curious, you would take the word of a CEO that this was a bridge to more Canadian jobs. Is that only because it would back up what you were saying all along or did you not get the memo that CEOs have no empathy and share many of the same characteristics as sociopaths!

[trey kule]

Well, the Sinwing was meant to be humerous....missed the mark I guess.

There is really no way to discuss this...."I firmly believe" pretty much closes the door

Bottom line, if left to their own devices, I still firmly believe they would have expanded the practice to the detriment of all Canadian airlines, leaving them a choice of going out of business or playing the same game, not good for Canadian pilots.

As to the CEO...I think I stated that I thought the only people that could say for sure if Sunwing was proceeding as planned, was Sunwing insiders. Would I believe their CEO is a different question. Not sure what the or did I get the memo comment was all about. The comment was made to hopefully deal with those who would post that they "just know" they would not have changed otherwise.

And to Mr H, I was not specifically referring to you making disparaging
BTW...when it comes to personal attacks, I recall you suggesting you wanted me to partake in a dinner of parts of my clothing that were not edible. Want me to post it and the "just watch me" comment?

Part of the problem is if the use of TFWs is decreasing in aviation there are those that will believe they were, or others were, the agents for the change. Not as much fun to believe that it is just part of a business plan mapped out years earlier.

And again, I am not defending the use of TFWs, as I think there is a need for reform. But continually centering out. sunwings as a sinner , is just not fair either.

It is almost impossible, it seems for people to say "I dont know", and when it becomes an emotional issue, they choose to believe what they want to believe rather than look at the facts.

In any event, I felt there were some very good posts on this thread. Well thought out and balanced.

[mbav8r]

Trey kule, it seems the only fact you are using to support your position is that they are reducing the use of TFWs. They have been at this for years and fighting it every step of the way, spent many many thousands on lawyers, I'm sure, not to mention lobbying dollars all to eventually end up at the same spot, that doesn't seem to make any sense let alone business sense.
Fact is, their major partner has a lull during our winter and this is a cost effective way for both sides.
Your earlier comment on
"The only people that can really properly answer that question is Sunwings management."
Is where my comment on CEOs came from, but you are right there is no way to know for sure however many facts support the desire for Sunwing to continue this practice not the opposite.

[AirMail]

It's not just Gilles or AT that's hating on SW for use of TFWs, it's all Canadian pilots. Over all the threads on here, the only ones that tone down, mis-direct, or condone the practice are those at SW.

At this moment, who else is using TFWs? Not Canjet or Transat. Not any other carrier that I am aware of, especially in a time of qualified pilots applying and on EI. Just SW with +100 every year.

[jpilot77]

AirMail +1

[Strobes]

Why is the Anti-TFW lobby unable to acknowledge that Sunwing is hiring less and less TFWs each year?

Why is the Anti-TFW lobby unable to acknowledge that some Sunwing pilots have a job because without TFPs, it would not have grown as quick as it did?

Why is the Anti-TFW lobby, in this case especially the AT lobbyists, unable to acknowledge that Canjet was able to do the lift for them for many years using TFPs, and would've charged a lot more for the lift had it not been able to do so - which would've been at a time AT was hurting financially?

Why is everyone willing to sacrifice the pilots that Sunwing will have to lay off every spring, so that 105 less foreigners will come over to North America to help? Foreigners who themselves would lose their jobs over in Europe if they were not needed in Canada for the winter flying? Isn't that throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Why is everyone selfish? Is it jealousy?

A few airlines have to furlough to stay afloat when the lift decreases. I'm not too sure how many had been furloughed last time AT did it, or anyone else, but it wasn't fun for you guys and gals now was it? Are you really wanting to inflict that pain on fellow Canadian pilots, and fellow [human beings] European pilots?

I call on you, my fellow human beings, to please take a moment, and consider what you are "demanding". Petition whatever you want, but please remember, there might be a pilot or two or a few dozens who would lose their permanent jobs in the current market - and it's hard to get a good aviation job these days.

[True North]

Why is the Anti-TFW lobby unable to acknowledge that Sunwing is hiring less and less TFWs each year?

Why is the Anti-TFW lobby unable to acknowledge that some Sunwing pilots have a job because without TFPs, it would not have grown as quick as it did?

Why is the Anti-TFW lobby, in this case especially the AT lobbyists, unable to acknowledge that Canjet was able to do the lift for them for many years using TFPs, and would've charged a lot more for the lift had it not been able to do so - which would've been at a time AT was hurting financially?

Why is everyone willing to sacrifice the pilots that Sunwing will have to lay off every spring, so that 105 less foreigners will come over to North America to help? Foreigners who themselves would lose their jobs over in Europe if they were not needed in Canada for the winter flying? Isn't that throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Why is everyone selfish? Is it jealousy?

A few airlines have to furlough to stay afloat when the lift decreases. I'm not too sure how many had been furloughed last time AT did it, or anyone else, but it wasn't fun for you guys and gals now was it? Are you really wanting to inflict that pain on fellow Canadian pilots, and fellow [human beings] European pilots?

I call on you, my fellow human beings, to please take a moment, and consider what you are "demanding". Petition whatever you want, but please remember, there might be a pilot or two or a few dozens who would lose their permanent jobs in the current market - and it's hard to get a good aviation job these days.

Well there it is. Very clearly stated, the self interest of the Sunwing pilot.

What Sunwing does is wrong, on several levels and arguably illegal. But it's okay because you have a job. I don't care a whit about European pilots and neither do you, but I do care about Canadian pilots. If Sunwing can't compete legally they don't deserve to be in business and the market share that they have, and by default the pilots they employ would be absorbed by Air Canada, Transat and WestJet.

Sunwing's position is indefensible. To try and defend it is pure self interest, nothing more.

[sluggo]

And so for anyone who agrees and hasn't signed the petition .... let's get on this and make things happen!

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Ca ... s//?launch

[Donald]

Sunwing pilots defending their company and it's use of TFW's is really no different than JetsGo pilots that defended Leblanc's policy of pilots paying upfront for their training.

[Strobes]

Well there it is. Very clearly stated, the self interest of the Sunwing pilot.

Oh sweet, does that mean I have a job at WingWing now?

Awesome, i was wondering when I'd get a 705 job!


Careful True North, assume makes an ass out of u and me...

[mbav8r]

Strobes, are you ok with other pilots with good paying jobs being furloughed as long as European pilots stay employed with Sunwing? Would you be satisfied if AT shut its doors and all AT pilots had to start over at the bottom of the Sunwing pay scale and list?
The only defensible position for Sunwing would be if they bring in 105 foreign full time pilots, they send 105 FULL TIME pilots positions over, that's it, anything else is unacceptable and detrimental to all CANADIAN pilots.