Cameron Air Caravan - CYTZ

[xchox]

Apparently a gear issue with the floats. No one injured I believe. Ended in the grass south side of 06. Not sure where he touched down though. Anyone got more details?

[SkunkStripe]

[SkunkStripe]

The image is shit but two fire trucks. and various other vehicles around it. As the time of this post it looks like they are trying to get it on it's wheels to tow it out of there.

[Kzanol]

Whipline supplement says if you cannot confirm the gear is fully up or down, to land on the grass beside the runway.

[xchox]

Whipline supplement says if you cannot confirm the gear is fully up or down, to land on the grass beside the runway.

And it was executed beautifully from what I hear. Good job to those guys.

[phillyfan]

It's a pretty simple maneuver to pull off. It's really all about the work of whoever picks up rocks in the grass beside the runway. Good work by him!

[cloudrunner]

Whipline supplement says if you cannot confirm the gear is fully up or down, to land on the grass beside the runway.

There's a whole lot of things I'm doing before landing in the grass and shutting down the airport and making the headlines. I'd be interested to know the details of this.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Whipline supplement says if you cannot confirm the gear is fully up or down, to land on the grass beside the runway.

Why would you want to land in an unknown gear configuration on an unknown surface? What is the downside of pavement? You know it is smooth, worst case it is all 4 wheels up and you have to replace the keel strips. Landing beside the runway on an unknown surface opens you up to hitting rocks, gopher holes, drainage ditches, and most likely landing on a sidehill as the ground is graded to slope away from the runway. Seems like silly advice to be putting in a POH Supplement when they can't possibly consider all the factors.

[Kzanol]

Ever replaced the keels on a set of wipline 8000's? It's not quick fix and the value of thiose floats just went down probably 50k. I'd get someone to take a quick run down it in a truck and take the grass landing everytime. Lots of people land floatplanes on grass every year, yet to hear of anybody causing any damage.

[photofly]

Whipline supplement says if you cannot confirm the gear is fully up or down, to land on the grass beside the runway.

There's a whole lot of things I'm doing before landing in the grass and shutting down the airport and making the headlines. I'd be interested to know the details of this.

The airport wasn't shut down, and to date I haven't seen any headlines. Has anyone else?

I was under the impression that landing on floats on wet grass was pretty much standard procedure for taking a float plane for maintenance somewhere away from water. Youtube has enough "float plane landing on grass" and "float plane taking off from a dolly on a hard surface runway afterwards", for sure.

[cloudrunner]

Whipline supplement says if you cannot confirm the gear is fully up or down, to land on the grass beside the runway.

There's a whole lot of things I'm doing before landing in the grass and shutting down the airport and making the headlines. I'd be interested to know the details of this.

The airport wasn't shut down, and to date I haven't seen any headlines. Has anyone else?

I was under the impression that landing on floats on wet grass was pretty much standard procedure for taking a float plane for maintenance somewhere away from water. Youtube has enough "float plane landing on grass" and "float plane taking off from a dolly on a hard surface runway afterwards", for sure.

I would say that a picture and a thread on the most notable aviation forum in Canada might be considered a headline but that's just me. Makes me personally stop to consider mx at Cameron Air. It is true that floatplanes can be landed safely on grass but it is far from "standard procedure". Most floatplanes are maintained by AMO's which are based on the water.

Like I said, I would be interested to know what the chain of events and thought procedures were before the pilot decided that this was the solution to his/her gear issue.

[idratherbeflying]

Partial deployment of landing gear, visually confirmed (air to air). The decision made was absolutely the correct one!! Good job by the pilot and the YTZ ARFF for spraying down the impromptu runway.

Now everyone resume their computer chair speculation.

[cloudrunner]

The decision made was absolutely the correct one!!

You seem to know a lot about the situation.

Which gear was partially extended? Was there fluid left in the system? How many times did they cycle the gear? Did they try the manual pump? Were the C/B's popping?

[photofly]

The decision made was absolutely the correct one!!

You seem to know a lot about the situation.

Which gear was partially extended? Was there fluid left in the system? How many times did they cycle the gear? Did they try the manual pump? Were the C/B's popping?

Can you be more specific about the point you're trying to make? It sounds like you're looking to find fault with someone or something. Is that your goal?

[Heliian]

If you've ever seen amphibious floats, you'll know where the issues lie. There are many moving parts that need grease and water removes the grease and then it sticks, amphibs need a lot of attention and when they don't get it, they'll quickly let you know. Not to mention the rubber or plastic bumpers and stops getting lodged in strange places.

The crew followed procedure and it was a non event except it happened at the rectum of the universe so people got word. Had they landed on the runway then they would have to close the runway and inspect it after getting the a/c off=time and money.

[cloudrunner]

The decision made was absolutely the correct one!!

You seem to know a lot about the situation.

Which gear was partially extended? Was there fluid left in the system? How many times did they cycle the gear? Did they try the manual pump? Were the C/B's popping?

Can you be more specific about the point you're trying to make? It sounds like you're looking to find fault with someone or something. Is that your goal?

This is a discussion forum. I am discussing the issue and wondering aloud EXACTLY what happened. Being the devil's advocate some might say.

I am a bit skeptical of the actual knowledge base of some people commenting when this event comes across as just another day at the office, i.e. "standard procedure" Did you bother to wonder about what happened before the very non-standard landing before you professed "mission accomplished" and "absolutely correct"?

Is there anything that can be learned about this event that maybe someone else in the same situation might benefit from?

I asked some very relevant questions above.

[cloudrunner]

If you've ever seen amphibious floats, you'll know where the issues lie. There are many moving parts that need grease and water removes the grease and then it sticks, amphibs need a lot of attention and when they don't get it, they'll quickly let you know. Not to mention the rubber or plastic bumpers and stops getting lodged in strange places.

The crew followed procedure and it was a non event except it happened at the rectum of the universe so people got word. Had they landed on the runway then they would have to close the runway and inspect it after getting the a/c off=time and money.

I am familiar with amphibious floats, hence my interest. Again, "non event" demonstrates a certain attitude that makes me wonder about the knowledge base and approach. They followed "a" procedure, but was it the correct path to the final decision is what I am wondering.
Lack of grease should not mean landing gear up on the grass. Rubber and plastic being "lodged in strange places", is that due to running into docks and things or just something that happens occasionally?

[goingnowherefast]

Did anybody get hurt? no
Did the airplane get damaged further? marginally, if any
Any rules broken? no
Personal/company/industry reputation damaged? marginally, if any.

Seems like a pretty good decision to me.

[DonutHole]

wow.

what if the cb;s were popping? is it in your sops to reset a popped breaker? that's freaking scary.. just hold her in till she works eh?

What if the pump was out of fluid? Just park er at the next cloud and top up the pump eh.

maybe the should have done a barrel roll and tried to pop them down on the bottom...

or better yet, lets land er on the hard ass runway and grind those keel strips off to the chine. I mean, it's a flat surface at least.

The 'relevant info' here is, when they threw the switch, the gear didn't come down. At that point in time it's pick your spot and stick it. Landing on the grass isn't 'another day In the office' for sure, but neither is landing with an unknown gear configuration on the dry, sand paper like surface at 80 mph with no wheels (well, for some this is a common occurrence) It seems pretty obvious, given what we know (the gear wasn't down and locked) that the grass in this specific situation (sprayed down and lubed up) was the correct decision. If there was say, a land mine testing facility, a pothole factory, or a vineyard directly to either side of the runway, well then, the more damaging option would be the right one.

Im sure that everybody involved (except maybe the DOM, Im sure he's not thrilled) is happy with the outcome.


You're the guy that would tell sully to land it on the highway, aren't you?

[cloudrunner]

wow.

what if the cb;s were popping? is it in your sops to reset a popped breaker? that's freaking scary.. just hold her in till she works eh?

What if the pump was out of fluid? Just park er at the next cloud and top up the pump eh.

maybe the should have done a barrel roll and tried to pop them down on the bottom...

or better yet, lets land er on the hard ass runway and grind those keel strips off to the chine. I mean, it's a flat surface at least.

The 'relevant info' here is, when they threw the switch, the gear didn't come down. At that point in time it's pick your spot and stick it. Landing on the grass isn't 'another day In the office' for sure, but neither is landing with an unknown gear configuration on the dry, sand paper like surface at 80 mph with no wheels (well, for some this is a common occurrence) It seems pretty obvious, given what we know (the gear wasn't down and locked) that the grass in this specific situation (sprayed down and lubed up) was the correct decision. If there was say, a land mine testing facility, a pothole factory, or a vineyard directly to either side of the runway, well then, the more damaging option would be the right one.

Im sure that everybody involved (except maybe the DOM, Im sure he's not thrilled) is happy with the outcome.


You're the guy that would tell sully to land it on the highway, aren't you?

Wow is right, and not in a good way.

Who said anything about holding C/B's in? It was a question that helps you get to what may or may not be causing the issue. Was there another crew/staff on board? Do you know where the reservoir is and how someone might get a look at the sight gauge? Again, which one of the 4 was not behaving correctly?

Throw the switch... doesn't do what the book says so park it in the grass eh? Again, wow to you champ…

Sully had seconds to decide and he's a real aviator that I am quite sure would not do anything stupid, quickly. You on the other hand, not so sure by the sounds of it.

You, and some others here seem "thrilled" with the outcome. I am asking questions which have yet to be answered and am therefor wondering if everything was done which might have led the pilot to a better outcome than what we are discussing, with "only the DOM" not totally chuffed about it.

[photofly]

You, and some others here seem "thrilled" with the outcome. I am asking questions which have yet to be answered and am therefor wondering if everything was done which might have led the pilot to a better outcome than what we are discussing, with "only the DOM" not totally chuffed about it.

Actually you're asking questions that you know aren't going to get answered, because you want to sound smart. Smarter than the guy at the controls, whom you're trying to throw under the bus. When you're not trying to throw the maintenance under the bus, that is.

Nobody here is doing any discussing - it's just you casting aspersions at this point.

As someone who is familiar with this type of situation, perhaps you could give us a more informative post about the steps that you'd take in the circumstances and what if any conclusions you'd have to reach before you landed on the grass as was done in this case. Just "asking questions" isn't doing it.

[cloudrunner]

Actually you're asking questions that you know aren't going to get answered, because you want to sound smart. Smarter than the guy at the controls, whom you're trying to throw under the bus. When you're not trying to throw the maintenance under the bus, that is.

Wrong. I am asking questions which I hope will eventually get answered by someone who really knows about this particular situation. I have no desire to "sound smart" champ, and I am not throwing anyone under anything. What I am really hoping to do by my agitation is eventually, and I think we may get there yet, have a float driver who might be new to amphib flying (amphib gear issues) learn from this experience and maybe not have to park one in the grass that doesn't need to be there. Having me say "I would have done this or that" would have been lost on many people many posts ago, especially amongst the "atta boy, perfect job, case closed" crowd. It may well come out yet that the particular pilot in question did everything that me, you and Bob Wiplinger could ever think of and landing on the grass was the best answer.. until we know more, I am killing some time for the sake of people who don't have the benefit of 5000+ hours on amphibs.

Nobody here is doing any discussing - it's just you casting aspersions at this point.

Nobody is "discussing anything because there are a few "hip hip hooray" people in the crowd and a few that think I'm being a dick because I am not "hip hip hooray"-ing. I am absolutely agitating for some perspective on the state of mind of some of the people who have decided to comment and frankly, I got what I expected for the most part… "mission accomplished" "absolutely the right decision". I am hoping that somewhere down the road, when we get through not discussing this that a new amphib pilot stops to consider a lot of different things before he or she -- flips the handle, gear doesn't go down and then it's TIME TO PICK YOUR SPOT AND STICK IT -- Maverick.

As someone who is familiar with this type of situation, perhaps you could give us a more informative post about the steps that you'd take in the circumstances and what if any conclusions you'd have to reach before you landed on the grass as was done in this case. Just "asking questions" isn't doing it.

I am definitely familiar with gear issues on Wipline floats. Maybe my "questions" -- agitation is "not doing it for you", sorry about that, I'm not here for the bear hunting. I am quite sure we will get to my perspective on things sooner or later, just letting the "experts" have their say first.

[phillyfan]

So if the wheels would not come down but they would go up. Why not land on water and fix the problem? Were some wheels jammed up and some down. If a guy landed a perfectly good floatplane on grass because he could not get the wheels down, that would be considered stupid in my book? I guess that's what Cloudrunner is getting at. Are we talking about indication issues or wheels totally jammed in mid cycle?

[cloudrunner]

So if the wheels would not come down but they would go up. Why not land on water and fix the problem? Were some wheels jammed up and some down. If a guy landed a perfectly good floatplane on grass because he could not get the wheels down, that would be considered stupid in my book? I guess that's what Cloudrunner is getting at. Are we talking about indication issues or wheels totally jammed in mid cycle?

NOW we are discussing things...

[CpnCrunch]

So if the wheels would not come down but they would go up. Why not land on water and fix the problem? Were some wheels jammed up and some down. If a guy landed a perfectly good floatplane on grass because he could not get the wheels down, that would be considered stupid in my book? I guess that's what Cloudrunner is getting at. Are we talking about indication issues or wheels totally jammed in mid cycle?

According to the CADOR, they jammed mid-cycle and they were low on fuel.

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2015O0922