Next few days.....

[dukepoint]

...should be pretty interesting. A strike vote for the CSA's (good luck with that ), and bid 15-03, which should show a bunch of vacancies because of a boatload of 787-900's coming in early 2016.......hearing curious rumours about Jepps on the IPads within a week or so......

DP.

[teacher]

...should be pretty interesting. A strike vote for the CSA's (good luck with that ), and bid 15-03, which should show a bunch of vacancies because of a boatload of 787-900's coming in early 2016.......hearing curious rumours about Jepps on the IPads within a week or so......

DP.

Similar rumours about the Jazz PML list folks being called a lot the last few weeks.

[dukepoint]

Nearly 100 vacancies to fill tons of movement. Lots of new slots RS/LS on the 787. Retirements starting to pick up........rock and roll.

787 sim is going to be hammered this fall. A second one is in the works.


DP.

[dukepoint]

Early interim bid showing 50 slots open on the 320 YYZ, 30 RP 787 YYZ, and about 15 on the EMJ YYZ. Vancouver closed to new hires for now, as is YUL and Winnipeg.


Appears to be a "bit" of an exodus away from narrow body positions. The 787 sucked up a lot of people.


Remember early reports only. Four days from now we should have a better pic, but I doubt there will be much change on the bottom end.

DP.

[FighterPilot]

Winnpeg? I thought it wasn't a base.

[dukepoint]

Air Canada has 26 FO's and 24 Capt +- one or two, on the A-320 based in Winnipeg.

No movement there.

DP.

[Oxi]

Is YWG no grandfathered into the contract as it was a mx base and the original base of some sort?

[Antique Pilot]

Is YWG no grandfathered into the contract as it was a mx base and the original base of some sort?

YWG has been a TCA/AC pilot base since late 1937.

AP

[777longhaul]

Duke Point DP.....

According to your many posts, about the total doom of the age 60 rule changing, and how the pilots were so greedy that wanted to keep there jobs, and according to you, the whole pilot progression issues, was going to be a disaster, and on and on, how come, you are so up......now???? The age 60 rule changed, it was discriminatory (thats why the Federal Government changed the rules) but, yet you are very excited, (nice to see) about the bright bright future at AC even though, the FP60 group was going to ruin your career, along with all the rest of the pilots at AC.

Nice that the new MPU pension units were issued in the new contract, and those that would have made a great deal less in the pension years can now make more, and pilots can retire anytime they want, yada yada..............

===================================================================================
DP quote from above post:

Nearly 100 vacancies to fill tons of movement. Lots of new slots RS/LS on the 787. Retirements starting to pick up........rock and roll.

787 sim is going to be hammered this fall. A second one is in the works.


DP.

[yycflyguy]

Duke Point DP.....

According to your many posts, about the total doom of the age 60 rule changing, and how the pilots were so greedy that wanted to keep there jobs, and according to you, the whole pilot progression issues, was going to be a disaster, and on and on, how come, you are so up......now???? The age 60 rule changed, it was discriminatory (thats why the Federal Government changed the rules) but, yet you are very excited, (nice to see) about the bright bright future at AC even though, the FP60 group was going to ruin your career, along with all the rest of the pilots at AC.

Nice that the new MPU pension units were issued in the new contract, and those that would have made a great deal less in the pension years can now make more, and pilots can retire anytime they want, yada yada..............

===================================================================================
DP quote from above post:

Nearly 100 vacancies to fill tons of movement. Lots of new slots RS/LS on the 787. Retirements starting to pick up........rock and roll.

787 sim is going to be hammered this fall. A second one is in the works.


DP.

Career progression has been essentially zero for the past 2.75 years so those 60+ could exit. That 5 year sentence is up in 2017. With the aggressive delivery schedule of the B787 and projected retirements, things will start moving again. The past bid only saw movement at the top but the trickle down affect will start in subsequent bids. With the arrival of the Max in 2017, I agree, things will move fast the next couple of years.

[dukepoint]

Duke Point DP.....

According to your many posts, about the total doom of the age 60 rule changing, and how the pilots were so greedy that wanted to keep there jobs, and according to you, the whole pilot progression issues, was going to be a disaster, and on and on, how come, you are so up......now???? The age 60 rule changed, it was discriminatory (thats why the Federal Government changed the rules) but, yet you are very excited, (nice to see) about the bright bright future at AC even though, the FP60 group was going to ruin your career, along with all the rest of the pilots at AC.

Nice that the new MPU pension units were issued in the new contract, and those that would have made a great deal less in the pension years can now make more, and pilots can retire anytime they want, yada yada..............

===================================================================================
DP quote from above post:

Nearly 100 vacancies to fill tons of movement. Lots of new slots RS/LS on the 787. Retirements starting to pick up........rock and roll.

787 sim is going to be hammered this fall. A second one is in the works.


DP.

Who's excited????
Im not remotely "excited" for myself, as I'm not going anywhere on this bid, nor any other for the next decade.

I'm excited for all those pilots junior to me who have been waiting patiently for the hogs with 37+ years of service to finally get their heads out of the trough and waddle on their way, while the FP65 campaign spools up and gets some traction. Wait for it.......

I'll thank no one but Calin for the impending growth. There's no way we can thank all those "hangers-on" for the movement, as almost all of them of them still have their heads fully immersed in the feed bag...... working on 40 years...... more in some cases. Some of them are really starting to look like crap though...... they're becoming an obvious reminder to all that everything in life has a pricetag. A serious one in this case.

Nothing a little tuck or three and some Botox won't fix....on the outside....and only for a little while. They certianly have the extra cash to pay for it.


DP.

[Doug Moore]

You’re missing the point, duke. Pilots such as yourself bemoaned, ad nauseum, the destruction of your careers as a result of FP60, predicting loss of income that would cause pilots to default on their mortgages, and worse. The “sky is falling” chatter went so far as to create fear and prophesy layoffs. You yourself insulted your peers by labeling them as greedy, and worse, impugning their competence. Persons such as yourself in particular, and ACPA in general, screwed your fellow pilots by allowing your crosscheck to fixate on one instrument (yourself) rather than scanning the panel and understanding the bigger picture.

Well, the bigger picture reveals that pilots have now been able to work past age 60 for almost 3 years and the sun still rises in the morning and still sets at night. Everybody is still working. Had ACPA supported FP60 back in 2003, all those pilots back then who just wanted to work a few more years to get their 35 years in the pension, or who wanted that one last (or first) left seat job, or who just wanted to fly a few more years because they loved their job, they’d all be into their 70’s now and long gone anyway. And that predicted doom and gloom that you and others spread? Well my, how times have changed! As you yourself have described it above: “Nearly 100 vacancies to fill tons of movement. Lots of new slots RS/LS on the 787. Retirements starting to pick up........rock and roll.” As one who has lived through 30 years of the ups and down in this industry I could have told you 10 years ago that good times would be in your future but the black clouds of doom and gloom (back then and apparently still so today) obscured all rational thought.

There always has been, and always will be that rare pilot who will fly until he dies, but the very large majority look forward to retiring – particularly so when they can do it on their own terms. Some even early-retire when in the right circumstances. You can continue to deride your peers (“... still have their heads fully immersed in the feed bag … really starting to look like crap …) but the reality is you and your union spent some serious coin intentionally putting the screws to your fellow pilots. And for what?

Every pilot at AC today can fly past 60 and the future at the airline has never looked brighter. Someday, when you are on the backside of your career, I expect that you will look back and understand that there was another flight plan that could have been flown, and one that everyone could have lived with. The irony of it all is, as matters stand today, ACPA pilots that fought against FP60 yesterday now get to enjoy the benefits of FP60 that they denied to the very people who fought for it. There may be some who find satisfaction in that, but the treachery and dishonesty of it is there for all to see. Not ACPA's finest hour.

[Norwegianwood]

Bravo Doug,

And you are NOT one of the few who fought the FP60 fight, thought I might add that for the naysayers! You are however one of the few who can see the whole (BIG) picture, well done.

NW

[duranium]

You’re missing the point, duke. Pilots such as yourself bemoaned, ad nauseum, the destruction of your careers as a result of FP60, predicting loss of income that would cause pilots to default on their mortgages, and worse. The “sky is falling” chatter went so far as to create fear and prophesy layoffs. You yourself insulted your peers by labeling them as greedy, and worse, impugning their competence. Persons such as yourself in particular, and ACPA in general, screwed your fellow pilots by allowing your crosscheck to fixate on one instrument (yourself) rather than scanning the panel and understanding the bigger picture.

Well, the bigger picture reveals that pilots have now been able to work past age 60 for almost 3 years and the sun still rises in the morning and still sets at night. Everybody is still working. Had ACPA supported FP60 back in 2003, all those pilots back then who just wanted to work a few more years to get their 35 years in the pension, or who wanted that one last (or first) left seat job, or who just wanted to fly a few more years because they loved their job, they’d all be into their 70’s now and long gone anyway. And that predicted doom and gloom that you and others spread? Well my, how times have changed! As you yourself have described it above: “Nearly 100 vacancies to fill tons of movement. Lots of new slots RS/LS on the 787. Retirements starting to pick up........rock and roll.” As one who has lived through 30 years of the ups and down in this industry I could have told you 10 years ago that good times would be in your future but the black clouds of doom and gloom (back then and apparently still so today) obscured all rational thought.

There always has been, and always will be that rare pilot who will fly until he dies, but the very large majority look forward to retiring – particularly so when they can do it on their own terms. Some even early-retire when in the right circumstances. You can continue to deride your peers (“... still have their heads fully immersed in the feed bag … really starting to look like crap …) but the reality is you and your union spent some serious coin intentionally putting the screws to your fellow pilots. And for what?

Every pilot at AC today can fly past 60 and the future at the airline has never looked brighter. Someday, when you are on the backside of your career, I expect that you will look back and understand that there was another flight plan that could have been flown, and one that everyone could have lived with. The irony of it all is, as matters stand today, ACPA pilots that fought against FP60 yesterday now get to enjoy the benefits of FP60 that they denied to the very people who fought for it. There may be some who find satisfaction in that, but the treachery and dishonesty of it is there for all to see. Not ACPA's finest hour.

+1

[MackTheKnife]

You’re missing the point, duke. Pilots such as yourself bemoaned, ad nauseum, the destruction of your careers as a result of FP60, predicting loss of income that would cause pilots to default on their mortgages, and worse. The “sky is falling” chatter went so far as to create fear and prophesy layoffs. You yourself insulted your peers by labeling them as greedy, and worse, impugning their competence. Persons such as yourself in particular, and ACPA in general, screwed your fellow pilots by allowing your crosscheck to fixate on one instrument (yourself) rather than scanning the panel and understanding the bigger picture.

Well, the bigger picture reveals that pilots have now been able to work past age 60 for almost 3 years and the sun still rises in the morning and still sets at night. Everybody is still working. Had ACPA supported FP60 back in 2003, all those pilots back then who just wanted to work a few more years to get their 35 years in the pension, or who wanted that one last (or first) left seat job, or who just wanted to fly a few more years because they loved their job, they’d all be into their 70’s now and long gone anyway. And that predicted doom and gloom that you and others spread? Well my, how times have changed! As you yourself have described it above: “Nearly 100 vacancies to fill tons of movement. Lots of new slots RS/LS on the 787. Retirements starting to pick up........rock and roll.” As one who has lived through 30 years of the ups and down in this industry I could have told you 10 years ago that good times would be in your future but the black clouds of doom and gloom (back then and apparently still so today) obscured all rational thought.

There always has been, and always will be that rare pilot who will fly until he dies, but the very large majority look forward to retiring – particularly so when they can do it on their own terms. Some even early-retire when in the right circumstances. You can continue to deride your peers (“... still have their heads fully immersed in the feed bag … really starting to look like crap …) but the reality is you and your union spent some serious coin intentionally putting the screws to your fellow pilots. And for what?

Every pilot at AC today can fly past 60 and the future at the airline has never looked brighter. Someday, when you are on the backside of your career, I expect that you will look back and understand that there was another flight plan that could have been flown, and one that everyone could have lived with. The irony of it all is, as matters stand today, ACPA pilots that fought against FP60 yesterday now get to enjoy the benefits of FP60 that they denied to the very people who fought for it. There may be some who find satisfaction in that, but the treachery and dishonesty of it is there for all to see. Not ACPA's finest hour.

Another EXCELLENT post by Doug portraying the reality verses the fiction surrounding the issue!

[dukepoint]

You've got quite the "cheerleeding section" Doug Moore. Great work justifying the situation.

I'm sure none of the 40+ YOS guys are losing any sleep over things, and those junior waiting in the wings can do nothing but watch......... I'm sure they're all revelling in their "extended run".

Just remember that the "lottery win" has a cost, and they are not bearing it.

DP

FWIW.....If things had been different, and layoffs had been in store, would any of them had taken retirement a little earlier to prevent a junior pilot with a young family and a new mortgage from being thrown out into the street?

We all know the answer to that question. The "moral high road" is only theirs by chance.

[Rockie]

Just remember that the "lottery win" has a cost, and they are not bearing it.

Both ACPA and senior flight operations management knew full well mandatory retirement was coming to an end and there was f**k-all they could do about it - senior members of both admitted that to me years ago. The decision to fight it was based on nothing more than delaying the inevitable as long as possible, to push as many as possible out the door before the axe fell. Whatever cost there is to that strategy belongs solely to the people who knowingly supported that strategy or lacked the elementary foresight to know how this would end.

Stop whining and take the consequences like a man...

[dukepoint]

Just remember that the "lottery win" has a cost, and they are not bearing it.

Both ACPA and senior flight operations management knew full well mandatory retirement was coming to an end and there was f**k-all they could do about it - senior members of both admitted that to me years ago. The decision to fight it was based on nothing more than delaying the inevitable as long as possible, to push as many as possible out the door before the axe fell. Whatever cost there is to that strategy belongs solely to the people who knowingly supported that strategy or lacked the elementary foresight to know how this would end.

Stop whining and take the consequences like a man...

You win Rockie. Stop gloating.

We get our faces pushed in it every time we go to work.

DP.

[Rockie]

You win Rockie. Stop gloating.

Actually I lost. If I had won ACPA and the pilots would have abandoned the useless fight and actually gotten something back from the company in return for all the money they're saving. We all lost.

[dukepoint]

This started as a generally positive thread, intended for those who have been waiting patiently for movement. Unfortunately it has been hijacked and has degenerated into yet another thread on the entitlement of those who've had it all career-wise and want more.

If those who have championed the FP60 cause on this forum had approached the issue with only slightly more grace, instead of a sense of self-entitled rightousness, guys like me would never have stepped into the fray.

Good luck to all. The movement is finally beginning.

DP.

[Rockie]

The movement is finally beginning.

Yes it has, and you're right. This was not the place to dredge up this old argument again.

[777longhaul]

DP

We are all happy (FP60 and NON FP60 like Doug) that there is progression for all the pilots, junior, middle, senior. That is a given. Sometimes its faster than others, but it is always there,(progression) just like death and taxes.

You are not versed on the realities of the offers that Raymond Hall (FP60) made to AC and acpa. They were many, and they were VERY reasonable, humble, and not sought because the FP60 wanted to screw anyone. There were offers, to direct the massive savings to the junior/middle pilots. The massive savings, were taken by AC, and given up (paid for) by ALL the pilots at AC. That was a total cluster fk. Over 300 million on the pension issue alone!!

It really went off the rails to say the least.

Never ever forget, it was AC that MADE acpa, sign onto a 50-50 liability to get AC to back acpa!!!!! AC must have been on the floor laughing that day. For acpa, it was the only way they could get any traction, to delay and hopefully win the day. That decision, is still pending. The FCA (3 judges) (Federal Court of Appeals) has yet to release their findings from the Jan. 20 2015 one day "special hearing" as they called it. If....that goes against AC/acpa, AC will just laugh, and look at acpa, and say, well we tried, now acpa will be on the hook for 50% of anything that goes from there. If the FCA goes against FP60, then their gamble will have paid off, well sorta, they sold the farm for the money that they were going to get on the pension savings, contract etc etc. So, many have already paid, and ....may have to yet. However, many in the acpa office, will not pay, as they have managed to line the pay check, and get out of AC before any possible action comes down.

Never ever think that we are Not happy for all of you at AC. There is progression, on new aircraft, not the old junkers that many of us built the airline with, but nice new safe equipment. Good on ya, and all the rest.

Raymond Hall really tried, and tried, to get AC and acpa to see that the Federal Government were going to change the law because it was discriminatory. The Feds changed it, and now the FP60 group are waiting to see if the courts think it was discriminatory. How can they say no to FP60, when the Federal Government, after exhaustive effort, ruled, that it was plainly discriminatory?
If the law is truly blind in its ruling on justice, then AC will have won over acpa, really think about that at FL390 on a long trip. Was that AC plan all along, they.....are not stupid in that regard.

AC took acpa in, cleaned them out, and the dumped them back in their own mess, with costs, to see how it plays out. Every pilot at AC lost, including the FP60 group. One day it will reach a conclusion, probably sooner than later. But....who knows, in the mean time, enjoy the new birds, they are fantastic, and it is a great company to work for.

[Doug Moore]

You've got quite the "cheerleeding section" Doug Moore. Great work justifying the situation.

I'm sure none of the 40+ YOS guys are losing any sleep over things, and those junior waiting in the wings can do nothing but watch......... I'm sure they're all revelling in their "extended run".

Just remember that the "lottery win" has a cost, and they are not bearing it.

DP

FWIW.....If things had been different, and layoffs had been in store, would any of them had taken retirement a little earlier to prevent a junior pilot with a young family and a new mortgage from being thrown out into the street?

We all know the answer to that question. The "moral high road" is only theirs by chance.

Once again, you’ve missed the point, duke. I haven’t attempted to “justify” any situation. I have expressed a point of view that I hope others will examine and consider. However, I have learned over the years that while some people can change their mind, others mind change. It’s how they handle either situation that defines who they are.

Speaking of “FWIW” … and things being different, you apparently weren’t around at AC when the pilot group was facing lay-offs in the early 90’s. The senior pilots agreed to take a pay cut in order that something like 246 junior pilots could keep working, and they did so for several years as I recall. That’s how the pilots at AC used to look after each other. But that was then …

So as to the question you so righteously posed above … to which “we all know the answer”, clearly by the example just noted, you and others who are like-minded are not part of the “we”. As to the “moral high road”, given the animosity that you have expressed in the past, I suspect that “we” (that’s you and me) are on two separate roads that are paved with completely different intentions.

I agree that the good news upon which this thread was started has been forgotten. I’m very happy for everyone, including yourself, that things are looking up at AC. Enjoy the airplanes and the people with whom you work, the end of it all will come soon enough.

Cheers,

[Raymond Hall]

If those who have championed the FP60 cause on this forum had approached the issue with only slightly more grace, instead of a sense of self-entitled rightousness, guys like me would never have stepped into the fray.

I have no idea of which particular posts, made by whom, to which you refer. However, speaking for myself only, my participation on this Forum was and always has been to provide facts without emotion--facts without any appearance of "self-entitled righteousness." Go back through the archive and ask yourself how much more clear could I possibly have been about the factual basis underpinning the potential adverse consequences to ACPA members, given the course of action ultimately chosen?

I not only made hundreds of posts to fill the almost total void of factual information provided by ACPA, but I maintained a presence here to answer to any inadvertent misrepresentation of facts by members of this Forum. Pilots had a right to know the facts and they still have a right to know the facts, in order that they be able to make informed decisions about issues that would ultimately affect them.

[Old fella]

The movement is finally beginning.

Yes it has, and you're right. This was not the place to dredge up this old argument again.

Referencing the summer season and BBQ analogy, time to take it(FP60) off – it’s done!!