I submitted my cpl application to my CFI to sign me off and she tells me flight tests can not be logged as PIC time. If this is true it would push me back a few hours to get back to 100hrs.
Also does anyone happen to know the means which the 300 is calculated?
Thank you
Who is PIC on a flight test
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Flying officer
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Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
Depends when you took the flight test. Prior to earlier this year you were PIC on your PPL flight test. Now you're not. Other flight tests, you might be, or you might not.
It's also possible there's a bogus TC rule about not counting the flight test towards required PIC time even though you were PIC. There's a dumb rule that hood time during a flight test doesn't count towards required instrument time.
A CPL requires 200 hours, not 300.
It's also possible there's a bogus TC rule about not counting the flight test towards required PIC time even though you were PIC. There's a dumb rule that hood time during a flight test doesn't count towards required instrument time.
A CPL requires 200 hours, not 300.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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single_swine_herder
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Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
Here's the lowdown ....
Yes, you are the PIC and can log it as such according to the CARs:
Division VI — Private Pilot Licence
Aeroplanes — Privileges
401.26 The holder of a private pilot licence — aeroplane may act as
(a) pilot-in-command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the licence is endorsed with ratings;
(b) pilot-in-command of an ultra-light aeroplane; and
(c) pilot-in-command or co-pilot of any aircraft for the sole purpose of the holder’s flight training or flight test where
(i) in the case of flight training,
(A) it is conducted under the direction and supervision of a flight instructor qualified in accordance with section 425.21 of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training, and
(B) no passenger is carried on board, and
(ii) in the case of a flight test,
(A) it is conducted in accordance with section 401.15, and
(B) no passenger is carried on board.
One thing that comes to mind is a policy that the flight test can't be used to complete the minimum flight time for the licence ....
And just to save you the bother of looking up 401.15 ....
Conduct of a Flight Test
401.15 No person shall conduct a flight test required for the issuance or renewal of a flight crew permit or licence or for the endorsement of a flight crew permit or licence with a rating unless
(a) the person
(i) is designated by the Minister to conduct the flight test, and
(ii) meets the requirements of section 425.21 of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training; and
(b) the flight test is conducted in accordance with
(i) Subpart 8, in the case of an aeroplane or helicopter, or
(ii) the personnel licensing standards, in any other case.
Yes, you are the PIC and can log it as such according to the CARs:
Division VI — Private Pilot Licence
Aeroplanes — Privileges
401.26 The holder of a private pilot licence — aeroplane may act as
(a) pilot-in-command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the licence is endorsed with ratings;
(b) pilot-in-command of an ultra-light aeroplane; and
(c) pilot-in-command or co-pilot of any aircraft for the sole purpose of the holder’s flight training or flight test where
(i) in the case of flight training,
(A) it is conducted under the direction and supervision of a flight instructor qualified in accordance with section 425.21 of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training, and
(B) no passenger is carried on board, and
(ii) in the case of a flight test,
(A) it is conducted in accordance with section 401.15, and
(B) no passenger is carried on board.
One thing that comes to mind is a policy that the flight test can't be used to complete the minimum flight time for the licence ....
And just to save you the bother of looking up 401.15 ....
Conduct of a Flight Test
401.15 No person shall conduct a flight test required for the issuance or renewal of a flight crew permit or licence or for the endorsement of a flight crew permit or licence with a rating unless
(a) the person
(i) is designated by the Minister to conduct the flight test, and
(ii) meets the requirements of section 425.21 of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training; and
(b) the flight test is conducted in accordance with
(i) Subpart 8, in the case of an aeroplane or helicopter, or
(ii) the personnel licensing standards, in any other case.
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
As I said - your PPL flight test, depending on when you took it, you may have been PIC but if you took it after February this year you would not.
A CPL flight test - you may have been, as the previous poster pointed out, you have that privilege. But you might not have been, it's not obligatory for the candidate to be PIC on any flight test. It should have been a discussion point with the examiner before the test.
A CPL flight test - you may have been, as the previous poster pointed out, you have that privilege. But you might not have been, it's not obligatory for the candidate to be PIC on any flight test. It should have been a discussion point with the examiner before the test.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Chaxterium
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Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
I must have missed something. What changed in February? I was under the impression that a candidate is PIC on all flight tests. Unless it's a two-crew FO ride.photofly wrote:As I said - your PPL flight test, depending on when you took it, you may have been PIC but if you took it after February this year you would not.
Cheers,
Chax
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
Just because you are allowed to be the PIC on a flight test doesn't mean you will be.
It's not a CAR'S change, it's a PE manual change.
One thing I haven't got answers to is what about uncommon aircraft. I'm doing training in an Aircam and my wife did a guy's PPL on a Maule last year. Hard to find PE's with enough practise to feel comfortable being a PIC in a Maule. Insurance may be an issue too.
It's not a CAR'S change, it's a PE manual change.
One thing I haven't got answers to is what about uncommon aircraft. I'm doing training in an Aircam and my wife did a guy's PPL on a Maule last year. Hard to find PE's with enough practise to feel comfortable being a PIC in a Maule. Insurance may be an issue too.
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
No, there was a CARs change this year, I think in February. Widely discussed, but obviously not that widely. The holder of a student pilot permit lost the privilege of being PIC for their PPL flight test. The examiner now must be PIC. None of the examiners I know were happy about it, but TC thought it was important enough to enforce.
Compare the current version of 401.19 with the previous, and note the change date. You can even look up the Gazette entry.
Edit: I see the CARs change was 12 April 2014, so last year - any PPL flight tests after that date the examiner had to be PIC.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=94682
Compare the current version of 401.19 with the previous, and note the change date. You can even look up the Gazette entry.
Edit: I see the CARs change was 12 April 2014, so last year - any PPL flight tests after that date the examiner had to be PIC.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 54&t=94682
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
Student Pilot Permits
Privileges
From this:
401.19 The holder of a student pilot permit may, for the sole purpose of the holder’s flight training or flight test, act as pilot-in-command of any aircraft of the category to which the permit relates, where
(a) the flight is conducted in Canada under day VFR;
(b) in the case of flight training,
(i) it is conducted under the direction and supervision of the holder of a flight instructor rating for that category of aircraft, and
(ii) no passenger is carried on board; and
(c) in the case of a flight test,
(i) it is conducted in accordance with section 401.15, and
(ii) no passenger other than the person referred to in paragraph 401.15(1)(a) is carried on board.
To this:
401.19 (1) The holder of a student pilot permit may act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft of the category for which the permit is endorsed if
(a) the flight is conducted for the purpose of the holder’s flight training;
(b) the flight is conducted in Canada;
(c) the flight is conducted under day VFR;
(d) the flight is conducted under the direction and supervision of a person qualified to provide training toward the permit, licence or rating for which the pilot-in-command experience is required; and
(e) no passenger is carried on board.
Privileges
From this:
401.19 The holder of a student pilot permit may, for the sole purpose of the holder’s flight training or flight test, act as pilot-in-command of any aircraft of the category to which the permit relates, where
(a) the flight is conducted in Canada under day VFR;
(b) in the case of flight training,
(i) it is conducted under the direction and supervision of the holder of a flight instructor rating for that category of aircraft, and
(ii) no passenger is carried on board; and
(c) in the case of a flight test,
(i) it is conducted in accordance with section 401.15, and
(ii) no passenger other than the person referred to in paragraph 401.15(1)(a) is carried on board.
To this:
401.19 (1) The holder of a student pilot permit may act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft of the category for which the permit is endorsed if
(a) the flight is conducted for the purpose of the holder’s flight training;
(b) the flight is conducted in Canada;
(c) the flight is conducted under day VFR;
(d) the flight is conducted under the direction and supervision of a person qualified to provide training toward the permit, licence or rating for which the pilot-in-command experience is required; and
(e) no passenger is carried on board.
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
When I did my Class 4 ride back in the Spring, the TC Inspector explained the "change" on the PIC rule to me.
Apparently TC had nothing to do with the change, but rather the Department of Justice decided to stick their noses in to TC's game (apparently they now feel that they can do this because the CARs are now part of the DOJs domain, or something to that effect). The DOJ apparently wanted the change made because, in their opinion, in the event of an emergency or if something were to go wrong, who would be "in charge"? Would it be the candidate or the examiner? They also felt that this is a liability issue, so they told TC from now on the examiner will be PIC, so that in the event shit hits the fan there is no confusion as to who is at fault, *ahem* "in charge".
Which is an interesting argument, because what the hell was the point of the portion of the pre-flight briefing where "in the event of an emergency, the flight test is over and we will work to the best of OUR abilities to sort of the problem..." schpiel?
In the end, I was not PIC during my Class 4 ride...
Apparently TC had nothing to do with the change, but rather the Department of Justice decided to stick their noses in to TC's game (apparently they now feel that they can do this because the CARs are now part of the DOJs domain, or something to that effect). The DOJ apparently wanted the change made because, in their opinion, in the event of an emergency or if something were to go wrong, who would be "in charge"? Would it be the candidate or the examiner? They also felt that this is a liability issue, so they told TC from now on the examiner will be PIC, so that in the event shit hits the fan there is no confusion as to who is at fault, *ahem* "in charge".
Which is an interesting argument, because what the hell was the point of the portion of the pre-flight briefing where "in the event of an emergency, the flight test is over and we will work to the best of OUR abilities to sort of the problem..." schpiel?
In the end, I was not PIC during my Class 4 ride...
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
The funny thing is the change only applies to the PPL ride. The candidate can still be PIC for all the other rides and tests.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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upintheair_
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Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
All flight tests aside from an IFR ride can be logged as PIC. And that is also a recent change, as IFR rides used to be loggable as PIC.
edit; didn't know about the PPL rule. As I took that long ago...
edit; didn't know about the PPL rule. As I took that long ago...
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praveen4143
- Rank 5
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Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
As far as I understand, the rule is simple. Can you be PIC in the current situation regardless of the outcome of the test? If the answer is yes, then you are PIC, if not, then the DPE is PIC..
Ok, I know it is not all that simple. For instance, an SPP holder doing a RPP or PPL ride cannot be PIC, but a RPP holder doing a PPL ride, a PPL holder doing a CPL ride are all allowed to be PIC. A person getting a Multi rating cannot be PIC, neither can an initial IFR ride be PIC. But if you are renewing an IFR that is not expired, you can be PIC. (Of course, you can argue that if the IFR test is conducted in VMC... blah blah)
The DPE who does tests for my school mentioned that there were loads of grumpy voice going about the new changes.... As one of the posters mentioned above, it has to do with the DoJ poking their noses and whatever else in places where TC would rather the DoJ wouldn't and TC is just keeping quiet and letting it play out.
@Photofly is also correct about the date. Had a guy do a PPL flight test on April 4th and he got to log it as PIC. Another guy did it a few months later and had to log it dual.
Too bad, the DPE Manual and all the Flight Test guides are pretty clear about the whole PIC thing. Wait until Insurance wants DPE's to have hours of type before they would let them be PIC! Then we will have a full blown pot boiler on our hands!!! Maybe the guy/gal doing the test can check the DPE out on the type.. LOL.. JK.. (thought someone would enjoy the Colonel's style of humour since he is not present here... Unless you are also on the *OTHER* forum)
Edit: I'm thinking out aloud here... The Class 4 ride, the guy/gal taking the exam should be allowed to be PIC since there is not special requirement to be PIC from the right seat. What say?
Ok, I know it is not all that simple. For instance, an SPP holder doing a RPP or PPL ride cannot be PIC, but a RPP holder doing a PPL ride, a PPL holder doing a CPL ride are all allowed to be PIC. A person getting a Multi rating cannot be PIC, neither can an initial IFR ride be PIC. But if you are renewing an IFR that is not expired, you can be PIC. (Of course, you can argue that if the IFR test is conducted in VMC... blah blah)
The DPE who does tests for my school mentioned that there were loads of grumpy voice going about the new changes.... As one of the posters mentioned above, it has to do with the DoJ poking their noses and whatever else in places where TC would rather the DoJ wouldn't and TC is just keeping quiet and letting it play out.
@Photofly is also correct about the date. Had a guy do a PPL flight test on April 4th and he got to log it as PIC. Another guy did it a few months later and had to log it dual.
Too bad, the DPE Manual and all the Flight Test guides are pretty clear about the whole PIC thing. Wait until Insurance wants DPE's to have hours of type before they would let them be PIC! Then we will have a full blown pot boiler on our hands!!! Maybe the guy/gal doing the test can check the DPE out on the type.. LOL.. JK.. (thought someone would enjoy the Colonel's style of humour since he is not present here... Unless you are also on the *OTHER* forum)
Edit: I'm thinking out aloud here... The Class 4 ride, the guy/gal taking the exam should be allowed to be PIC since there is not special requirement to be PIC from the right seat. What say?
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
The day of the flight test, my Class 1 had suddenly heard of some change to the system about flight tests, and he had no idea if it applied to Instructor rides.
So he spent a while looking at TC's site, googling, etc, to really no avail.
In the end we just talked to the Inspector who said that this change had been made, via the DOJ, and that from what he had heard (as usual everything is open to the interpretation of the individual inspector, etc - god forbid TC ever actually came up with a unified opinion on any subject) was that he was the PIC for the flight test. I just shrugged my shoulders and said alright. I'd been PIC on my PPL flight test, multi, and CPL, but oh well what the hell, another hour and a bit of dual wasn't going to be the end of the world. And guess what, I learned a thing or two from the inspector during the flight test...
So he spent a while looking at TC's site, googling, etc, to really no avail.
In the end we just talked to the Inspector who said that this change had been made, via the DOJ, and that from what he had heard (as usual everything is open to the interpretation of the individual inspector, etc - god forbid TC ever actually came up with a unified opinion on any subject) was that he was the PIC for the flight test. I just shrugged my shoulders and said alright. I'd been PIC on my PPL flight test, multi, and CPL, but oh well what the hell, another hour and a bit of dual wasn't going to be the end of the world. And guess what, I learned a thing or two from the inspector during the flight test...
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
I don't think the insurance is such a big deal. I just checked my own insurance, and any instructor who is appropriately licensed is counted as an insured pilot while teaching or training as long as the person being taught is the named pilot; I think a quick email would confirm that includes examining and testing. No hours on type required. it's not by any means an unusual airplane but the policy text is boilerplate and I don't think it would be any different for another type.
We have plenty of ex military PE's here who probably haven't landed a tail-dragger in 40 years; they might be shy about being PIC examining a PPL in a Maule, but I don't think the insurance would be the problem.
We have plenty of ex military PE's here who probably haven't landed a tail-dragger in 40 years; they might be shy about being PIC examining a PPL in a Maule, but I don't think the insurance would be the problem.
Last edited by photofly on Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
Most insurance policies will cover the DFTE. From my policy:
b. Any pilot holding a Commercial Pilot License with a Flight Instructor Rating, but only while accompanied by a named pilot.
e. Any pilot holding a DFTE (Designated Flight Test Examiner) as granted by Transport Canada.
It would be more of an issue with SPP being PIC and lack of passenger privileges as pointed out in 401.26.
b. Any pilot holding a Commercial Pilot License with a Flight Instructor Rating, but only while accompanied by a named pilot.
e. Any pilot holding a DFTE (Designated Flight Test Examiner) as granted by Transport Canada.
It would be more of an issue with SPP being PIC and lack of passenger privileges as pointed out in 401.26.
"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright
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praveen4143
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Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
They should re-word that... Transport Canada has been calling them DPEs (Designated Pilot Examiners) for a while now.. Maybe since 2008 or even earlier I think..JasonE wrote:Most insurance policies will cover the DFTE. From my policy:
b. Any pilot holding a Commercial Pilot License with a Flight Instructor Rating, but only while accompanied by a named pilot.
e. Any pilot holding a DFTE (Designated Flight Test Examiner) as granted by Transport Canada.
It would be more of an issue with SPP being PIC and lack of passenger privileges as pointed out in 401.26.
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elainemorrison
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Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
What about multi-IFR?
If you have your multi when you're training IFR in VFR conditions, can any of that time, like perhaps the IFR flight test, be multi PIC since you already have your multi rating (and are not with your instructor getting instruction)? Note, flying MIFR was not under the hood, if I recall. If so, I'd have had to remove it to do a MA, take-off, and landing, and a few times training we were in IMC. It was a while ago so I don't even remember. And the ride was fast and packed so I don't know where there'd be the time to fiddle with that. Still don't remember if a hood was involved. Oh, here, I listed hood in my book! Alright, whatever. I really wanted a multi PIC hour, though. And of course everything would have been filed as IFR, without the IFR rating. Didn't think that through.
So the multi flight test is absolutely not PIC? The PEM does not have a PIC section for multi.
If you have your multi when you're training IFR in VFR conditions, can any of that time, like perhaps the IFR flight test, be multi PIC since you already have your multi rating (and are not with your instructor getting instruction)? Note, flying MIFR was not under the hood, if I recall. If so, I'd have had to remove it to do a MA, take-off, and landing, and a few times training we were in IMC. It was a while ago so I don't even remember. And the ride was fast and packed so I don't know where there'd be the time to fiddle with that. Still don't remember if a hood was involved. Oh, here, I listed hood in my book! Alright, whatever. I really wanted a multi PIC hour, though. And of course everything would have been filed as IFR, without the IFR rating. Didn't think that through.
So the multi flight test is absolutely not PIC? The PEM does not have a PIC section for multi.
Last edited by elainemorrison on Sun Jun 25, 2023 12:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Who is PIC on a flight test
As far as I know, the only flight tests that the candidate is ACUTALLY the PIC and logs it as such are FIR rides as well as IFR IPC rides where your IFR has not yet expired. Otherwise, the examiner is PIC. Initial IFR is also examiner PIC.
