Anyone have to do spins during their night rating training? Seems a bit silly but wondering if any others have done it...
Thanks

Frig that shit. Who would want to do that!?

Spins are an aerobatic maneuver, aerobatics are not permitted at night - because it's a bad idea!

No.

PilotDAR wrote:Spins are an aerobatic maneuver, aerobatics are not permitted at night - because it's a bad idea!

+1. Very, very bad idea. Easy to become spatially disoriented.

Had to put that in there, but notice even the best in the world aren't doing any tumbling or spinning maneuvers.

Only in a twin....

Im not advocating spins at night, but I recall going up east of Peterborough in a C-150 at night and doing spins dual. Spins are done on instruments with a check pilot,,,should be able to properly recover on instruments with Night VFR as a back-up. Increased risk? but then full spins are an increased risk these days anyways, as well as flying behind a 50 year old engine !!!

PilotDAR wrote:Spins are an aerobatic maneuver, aerobatics are not permitted at night - because it's a bad idea!

This is what I found in the cars,

Aerobatic Manoeuvres — Prohibited Areas and Flight Conditions

602.27 No person operating an aircraft shall conduct aerobatic manoeuvres
(a) over a built-up area or an open-air assembly of persons;
(b) in controlled airspace, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.67;
(c) when flight visibility is less than three miles; or
(d) below 2,000 feet AGL, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.02 or 603.67.

It does not say anything about night. Although if you can find the regulation please share, as I said I feel like it is a bit much.
While it's important to recognize a spin using instrument indications, why not do it under the hood in the day so that you have a more safety margin? Just as a comparison, the FAA don't require spins at all in their private or commercial training.

Strega wrote:Only in a twin....

With an engine out ... solidly feathered too, and preferably the left.

crazyaviator wrote:Im not advocating spins at night, but I recall going up east of Peterborough in a C-150 at night and doing spins dual. Spins are done on instruments with a check pilot,,,should be able to properly recover on instruments with Night VFR as a back-up. Increased risk? but then full spins are an increased risk these days anyways, as well as flying behind a 50 year old engine !!!

Sounds like you are downplaying the risks to a degree.

Should be able to get out of lots of situations, that doesn't mean simulating every one of those situations is a wise move. Risk is on recovery there are no distinct lights visible, quite possible in any area appropriate for spins away from built up areas, spin snaps the wrong way, and the check pilot gets confused. Maybe your inexperienced class 4 reading this will get cute ideas that this would be fun to try and people will end up dead.

I've done unusual attitudes under the hood during the day. I see no advantage in needlessly adding risk by adding night to the equation.

Just My $0.02

Why don't we practice V1 cuts in a real plane? That's why we have sim training. If you want to practice night spin recovery do it under a hood during the day with an instructor or get some unusual attitude recovery training in a sim.

A civil discussion on this sort of thing is nice to see. Often an instructor gets some well-intentioned yet bad idea, passes it to their student, who some day becomes an instructor themselves and repeats the cycle. I'm sure we've all seen it plenty of times. Today we get to break one of those chains. Today is a good day.

I remember during my night rating, while completing the dual portion, flying through Glen Valley on the way to Pitt Meadows we heard someone making calls about climbing to 4000 feet for spins. Myself and the instructor looked at each other, and said "well, we'll either be reading about it in the CADORS or the papers when this guy ends up dead".

Just plain stupid and dangerous, if you want to get this sort of practice do it under the hood with a competent instructor. And plenty of people cannot handle prolonged unusual attitude work while under the hood without getting sick, let alone spins - have fun...

Maybe you should be nude in the plane as well! It would really give the investigators something to ponder should you crash.


Jim

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 83#p838341

Check the first post... been there, done that, do not recommend it.

I have pulled the power to idle and told my student it was a simulated engine failure. The seconds of ugh uh oh oh and confusion is certainly interesting.

It does not say anything about night. Although if you can find the regulation please share

I agree, I cannot find that reference. My errant recollection... Still a bad idea though....

I'd be somewhat leery of an instructor that requests you do spins at night. As stated by Rookie50, you're typically out in a secluded area with minimal lighting from the ground. Spatial distortion would be way to easy to become victim of. There's already a ton of ways to plow a plane into the ground without upping the stakes.

I would suggest low level advanced aerobatics is more dangerous than spins at night, however, LLAA pays $$$ and is for the very few as spins for your commercial at night is simply unnecessary and risk increasing ( WAS FUN THOUGH )

crazyaviator wrote:I would suggest low level advanced aerobatics is more dangerous than spins at night, however, LLAA pays $$$ and is for the very few as spins for your commercial at night is simply unnecessary and risk increasing ( WAS FUN THOUGH )

It is really questionable to call an unwise, unnecessary risky maneuver, "fun" after the disclaimer "risk increasing" on a flight training forum frequented by new pilots. Scaring yourself, because at night you have no idea which way the plane is turning, even if that is the worst outcome, isn't "fun".

Sure these young folks thought they were having "fun" -- and this was an accidental spin, CPL, in daylight.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=Waterloo

Sorry to be direct. Too many impressionable eyes are reading to be otherwise, IMO.

What the heck do spins at night have to do with a night rating?

If some instructor is including this in the night rating training it is time to get a smarter new instructor that has some common sense. You dont want to be the student with the idiot when he kills someone.

Every so often I see people asking questions that makes me truly wonder about what is going on in flight schools nowadays. You should really be talking to the CFI and asking for a refund of your money.

It is really questionable to call an unwise, unnecessary risky maneuver, "fun" after the disclaimer "risk increasing" on a flight training forum frequented by new pilots. Scaring yourself, because at night you have no idea which way the plane is turning, even if that is the worst outcome, isn't "fun".

Sure these young folks thought they were having "fun" -- and this was an accidental spin, CPL, in daylight.

I don't recall any airshow commentator coming on the mic and saying " ladies and gentlemen, the activities you are about to see today are inherently unsafe and really foolish to be attempted by anyone due to their increased risk. If there are any student pilots in the audience, please go home and dont ever get any ideas to do anything other than what your mother says you can do"
As an example, just because sex is fun and has risks ( pregnancy, disease ) associated with it, doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong. UNLESS your Catholic, then it must be for procreation only and shouldn't be fun

I've done both spins and aeros at night (in my younger and more adventurous days). The risk really depends on the situation; On a no moon night with minimal ground lights->very risky. On a full moon night over new snow or with ground lights available->not so risky.
As to the OPs question; Is it required for a night rating; No. However, it could be good exposure, depending on who is giving the instruction and the aircraft type.

The key is to have a reliable attitude source (goes in any conditions). And no, your mechanical gyros are not consideed reliable.