Is a Second Officer a "Pilot"

classiv · Post by **classiv** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:05 pm

I've always wondered about this.

You're a SO on a 727, and someone comes up to you on the street and ask what you do for a living.

What do you say?

"I'm a pilot"

"I'm a pilot, but I don't really fly the plane."

"I'm a wannabee pilot"

You could always say you're "a Second Officer on a 727", but most non-aviation people have no idea what a second officer is. And then you have to explain everything, which must get tedious.

Just my weird thought of the day...

flyincanuck · Post by **flyincanuck** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:12 pm

Most non-aviation people don't know what a first officer is.

......Pilot.......Co-pilot.......Pilot.......Co-pilot......

You get the point.

Aeros · Post by **Aeros** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:29 pm

Try calling yourself a Flight Engineer. Nobody really knows what they do, but they at least know that the FE sits in the pointy end of the airplane.

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:49 pm

flight engineer sounds like ur a mechanic of designer... both sound better than a pilot

classiv · Post by **classiv** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:49 pm

Yeah, I guess you could do that... just hope they don't know that a true Flight Engineer can actually fix the plane, whereas S/Os can't.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:46 pm

Can you be an SO without being a pilot ? AME's can be a FE but I don't think I've met an SO's that didn't have a commercial pilot licence. I know SO's keep IFR currency provisions while in the seat as well sooo I think I just answered my own question. Thx for coming out

Hungry Mike

Ralliart · Post by **Ralliart** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:08 pm

Isn't the '27 SO the hardest job outta the three up front?

classiv · Post by **classiv** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:25 pm

Mike,

That's the point... an SO is a licensed commercial pilot, but in terms of his job he's not really a pilot. So there's the source of confusion.

I can see a conversation going like this:

Joe Blow: "So what do you do?"

S/O :"I'm a pilot."

Joe Blow: "Wow, it must take a lot of skill to land those big jets."

S/O: "Well, I don't actually land the plane..."

Joe Blow: "But you said you're a pilot????"

DragEraser · Post by **DragEraser** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:01 am

A snoozer doesn't land the plane either. So what. Just say you're in the movement of heavy alum.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:04 am

Pilot

Luscombe · Post by **Luscombe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:13 am

As an SO, you are most definitely a pilot.

For those people who don't understand aviation, I used to say that I did the job of the Flight Engineer, but I'm the "spare pilot" in case anything went wrong. They seemed to understand that. One scenerio we worked on in the sim was a rapid descent drill where the FO didn't get his O2 mask on in time and was considered "dead" by the sim instructor. Although it wasn't in our company SOP's, we were expected to set up our panel, get out of our seat, pull the "dead" FO out and help the Captain land the 727 with the cargo door blown off.

For those who do understand aviation, there is this prevalent opinion out there in pilot circles that 1) it is a waste of time (ie not log-able time) for a pilot to take a position, and 2) that you're not really a pilot. Believe me, it is the hottest seat in the house especially when things go wrong.

My time as an SO was some of the most memorable days flying. You are another set of ears and eyes for things like approach briefings etc... you can also take care of ATC when things get a little hairy up front. There were many occasions where I picked up on errors made by the PF and missed by the PNF (minor things like an error in take off weight by 10,000 lbs). You're not just a "glorified switch-flicker"... hardly.

I had fun as an SO as I said before, I hope you enjoy every minute of it as well.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:05 am

Speaking from personal experience, he's a pilot for about six months... and then he's just REALLY bored.

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:31 pm

Speaking from very recent experience the SO is the busiest person on board the aircraft regardless of emergencies, it just increases exponentially when the red lights and bells start coming on. Any past SO can relate to being on the floor with a flash light cranking down the gear while balancing fuel onboard a turbulent aircraft. It's also been proven that the safest cockpit is a 3 man cockpit because that 3rd pair of eyes can catch a lot when the PF and PNF get busy. With a competent Captain and crew delegating duties it's amazing how smoothly emergencies can be handled.

I would do it again in a second if I were given the opportunity although it doesn't beat flying the aircraft it sure is an amazing learning experience that often leads to an eventual FO upgrade. I learned more with my time as an SO than I ever did flying smaller equipment.

As for a title or explanation to a non flying type I simply say I’m a commercial pilot working as a second officer and explain that an SO is the systems operator on older aircraft before automation. They either get confused and don’t ask anymore questions or become really interested and understand totally.

Also don't forget to log the time as "SO Time" as some larger companies will count a percentage if it and put it towards your TT.

d-to · Post by **d-to** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:16 pm

In some companies thy are called co-co's ,or relief pilots. They can operate above in cruise , above 20000' on long haul flights on aircraft as the B744, B777 A340 etc. It is very often an entry position .

737Driver · Post by **737Driver** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:14 pm

A retired 747 captain told me he used to tell people he was a High speed, off road, heavy equipment operator.

therubberjungle · Post by **therubberjungle** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:28 pm

Luscombe,

Howdy, fellow Caper!

SO is a pilot? Well, yeah, by definition. The back seat was intended for flight engineers, consult your Boeing paperwork re terminology if you don't believe me. The US does not recognize SO, only FE. You have to write an exam to sit in the back seat south of the border. In Canada, it's a whole seperate license. Correct me if I'm wrong but Morningstar is the only Canadian company currently producing FEs.

I once had a Flight Engineer (who was a pilot) tell me that if the PF was incapacitated that he would leave his seat and "help" me fly the plane. My response was curt: "No fucking way, son. Stay back there and keep an eye on the systems." Yeah, I'm old enough to have called him "son".

The best help he could offer me was to stay in his seat and monitor the back panel. Any compounding emergencies would have spelled BIG shit if he was sitting up front instead of back there where he belonged. Yes, our company had LOFT profiles where one pilot "died", the surviving pilot was expected to land the plane while using the back-seater, when required, to select radio freqs, talk on the radios, select gear and flaps, when commanded... FROM THE BACK SEAT.

"Glorified switch flicker"...yup. I have sat in the back seat and I can state, without hesitation, that a GOOD flight engineer is worth his weight in gold. A good second officer is just that: a good second officer. I was a good second officer, nothing more.

Here's what I mean: an SO hits a switch and sees (or not) the expected result. An FE hits the switch, sees (or not) the expected result and knows exactly what has happened to give that result. They're AMEs after all, they have worked on the aircraft, so their knowledge far surpasses that of the SO "switch flicker".

SO experience is valuable without question. Don't confuse it with "pilot" time, it's not. It will make you a better pilot, no question, but there's a reason you can't log it in your book: you don't fly the bird from the back seat.

Cheers

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:47 am

bizjet_mania wrote:flight engineer sounds like ur a mechanic of designer... both sound better than a pilot

Flight Engineer, oh yeah, that's the guy who brings the plunger to work.

I personally prefer the term Flight Engineer (TC has bastardized the term Second Officer). At some airlines, a Second Officer is a cruise pilot, and definately not to be confused with the flight crew member who routinely slams the car door on his legs after work.

phatboy · Post by **phatboy** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:19 am

no....neither is an first officer.....captain is the only pilot...

snag · Post by **snag** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:31 am

2nd officer is a "crew member". Saying that they are in a "pilot" role is a bit of a stretch..even if they have a license. Otherwise, where do you draw the line..Is the ramp guy or crewman that loads the plane and holds a MIFR a pilot on that aircraft?

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:03 pm

Well, isn't a holder of a pilot's license a pilot regardless of what they do for a living? They could be a garbage man and have a PPL and be a "Pilot". Either way, trying to classify your seat should be the least of anybody's worries. In the end, you hold the license, your a pilot, you just happened to be working as a Second "O" or FE, whatever.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:12 pm

I felt only commercial pilots (regardless of position) were true pilots as this was their career/profession!

That'd be like calling a guy who cooks dinner a chef

so why is it we call a piano player a pianist, but a race car driver isn't a racist?

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:19 pm

I guess what I was trying to say is, the Second "O" has a CPL and in many cases an ATPL, so yes, he is a pilot.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:48 pm

Well I hold an ATP and racked up 6000 hours before getting into the back seat. Have a ceased to be a pilot?

What a dumb thread.

therubberjungle · Post by **therubberjungle** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:14 pm

Naw gelbisch,

Just like when I was sitting back there: you're still a pilot... you're just not getting paid to be one.

Your job is "systems operator". You are paid in kind.

Next?

Traveler · Post by **Traveler** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:26 am

I know as a fact, the "FE or SO" on the 727 at United was an FO who rotated through the right seat through a trip. I'm sure it was the same at other operators across North America.

Is a Second Officer a "Pilot"

Is a Second Officer a "Pilot"

Piloto Cargaero