ATF Procedures

[fleet16b]

At our airport we are classified ATF
Looking in CARS the only set procedures for ATF airports is CAR 602.96 which is very general at best .
Some of our "lowtime 6 hr a year " pilots are concerned about some of the higher time pilots circuit behaviors
and are quoting all the b.s. that they learned in flight school.
ie
>one must be at or above 500ft AAE before turning during climb out > cant find that stated anywhere in CARS
>no formation arrivals
> altitude when entering the circuit> CARS refers to "circuit height" but no actual , AIM says 1000 ft AAE but AIM's are suggested methods not enforced methods.



Would like to hear the opinions of some on circuit procedures within an ATF area ( whats official ?)
CARS 602.96 is the only CAR I can find on the subject and that little gem is up for interpretation

(NOTE: do not confuse an ATF aerodromes with an MF ones, they are two different animals )

[FlyingMonkey]

Your right about the CARS being vague on ATF procedures. You can pretty much do whatever you want/need to (exercise good airmanship) as long as it doesn't contradict the CARS and the CFS. ATF procedures from the AIM that are not directly extrapolated from the CARS are purely suggestive and are a good template for all pilots to use but they are not mandatory!

[5x5]

So nice to hear another experienced pilot railing about "the b.s." pilots learn at flight schools. And denigrating less experienced pilots who can't afford the time or money to fly as much as they do. And all in one sentence. It must be wonderful to be a self-taught master of the skies. (to be perfectly clear the preceding is heavily sarcastic)

A less experienced pilot will obviously be concerned with procedures they aren't familiar with as it means they don't know what the other aircraft(s) are going to do. And in the circuit this is naturally cause for some anxiety on their part. Instead of coming on here to bad-mouth them, perhaps some effort to talk to them directly and explain what and why you're doing what you're doing would be beneficial and alleviate some of their concern. Maybe even offer to share some of your time and help them learn and understand a bigger picture and become more experienced. We're all in this together and if the experienced folks spend their time dismissing and belittling the less experienced then no wonder people are concerned about the future of GA as a recreational pursuit.

In response to your question, there is no specific regulation I'm aware of but there is this poster from TC - and I know it's not a regulation so take it for what it is - guidance from the regulator and hence part of the "flight school b.s.".

[Krimson]

You can fly the circuit at whatever altitude you please, turn crosswind when you feel like it, and formation arrivals are fine with prior communication.

Just use good airmanship with others in the circuit.

[upintheair_]

I fly into ATF daily. The kinda standard is 15 min out make a call. Then call final and clear of the runway. As for leaving, our SOPs are through 400' flaps up then turn en route.

[ahramin]

15 minutes seems quite excessive to me. At 120 knots that's 30 miles, around here you'd go through 2 other airport's airspace in that distance. Hope you have a second radio on 126.7 during that time. Plus in 15 minutes it's unlikely anyone who heard your initial call will still be around.

Maybe it's less crowded in Ontario though.

[ahramin]

Fleet16b, I don't see proper circuit procedures as BS. Yes with the avoid or confirm to the circuit wording of the CARs you can do pretty much whatever you want as long as you don't cut off anyone else, but how do you know you're not cutting off anyone else? My home airport is the only ATF around here. When going overhead to check the wind sock, I'm at least 500' above the circuit, crossing midfield for the downwind I'm at circuit altitude, I do at least three legs of the circuit and usually four, departure I climb to 500' before starting a 90° turn and 1000' before turning beyond that. All are best practice for flying around an aerodrome and I don't see them as much of an inconvenience. Especially if it keeps me from cutting off one of the many NORDO aircraft coming in and out of here if I don't spot it.

I agree that many flight schools are overflowing with BS, I wouldn't count best practice circuit procedures found in the AIM among them. To me that's like saying VFR cruising altitudes or stall recoveries are BS. You say MFs are a different animal, but if it makes sense in an MF, why doesn't it make sense in an ATF where there's even more chance there's someone around you don't know about?

[fleet16b]

So nice to hear another experienced pilot railing about "the b.s." pilots learn at flight schools. And denigrating less experienced pilots who can't afford the time or money to fly as much as they do. And all in one sentence. It must be wonderful to be a self-taught master of the skies. (to be perfectly clear the preceding is heavily sarcastic)

A less experienced pilot will obviously be concerned with procedures they aren't familiar with as it means they don't know what the other aircraft(s) are going to do. And in the circuit this is naturally cause for some anxiety on their part. Instead of coming on here to bad-mouth them, perhaps some effort to talk to them directly and explain what and why you're doing what you're doing would be beneficial and alleviate some of their concern. Maybe even offer to share some of your time and help them learn and understand a bigger picture and become more experienced. We're all in this together and if the experienced folks spend their time dismissing and belittling the less experienced then no wonder people are concerned about the future of GA as a recreational pursuit.

In response to your question, there is no specific regulation I'm aware of but there is this poster from TC - and I know it's not a regulation so take it for what it is - guidance from the regulator and hence part of the "flight school b.s.".

You misunderstand ...what I mean is inaccurate BS that they have picked up that some flying schools adapt that is not actually in CARs. They are low time enough to think certain things pertaining to our issue they have been told are true
Don't think of myself as a "self taught master" if hopefully a bit of a mentor
I just spent an hour with TC trying to clear up some of the concerns of our new pilots and debunking some of the incorrect opinions of "the masters" . Then sent it out to everyone in an attempt to keep things safer at our airport It will be further discussed at our next meeting.
The poster helps slightly but is more of an MF airport diagram according to TC

[fleet16b]

Fleet16b, I don't see proper circuit procedures as BS. Yes with the avoid or confirm to the circuit wording of the CARs you can do pretty much whatever you want as long as you don't cut off anyone else, but how do you know you're not cutting off anyone else? My home airport is the only ATF around here. When going overhead to check the wind sock, I'm at least 500' above the circuit, crossing midfield for the downwind I'm at circuit altitude, I do at least three legs of the circuit and usually four, departure I climb to 500' before starting a 90° turn and 1000' before turning beyond that. All are best practice for flying around an aerodrome and I don't see them as much of an inconvenience. Especially if it keeps me from cutting off one of the many NORDO aircraft coming in and out of here if I don't spot it.

I agree that many flight schools are overflowing with BS, I wouldn't count best practice circuit procedures found in the AIM among them. To me that's like saying VFR cruising altitudes or stall recoveries are BS. You say MFs are a different animal, but if it makes sense in an MF, why doesn't it make sense in an ATF where there's even more chance there's someone around you don't know about?

ahramin
I agree with you completely however not everyone out there flying will have the same best practices due to how the ATF CAR is written

[ahramin]

ACR?

[photofly]

one must be at or above 500ft AAE before turning during climb out > cant find that stated anywhere in CARS

The AIM says ("suggests") that if departing the circuit, aircraft should climb straight ahead to circuit altitude before turning to an en-route heading, and no turns back towards the circuit or airport be made until at least 500' above the circuit altitude. (AIM RAC 4.5.2(c)) - but I don't think most pilots have read that, and few of those that have don't follow it. Nobody really wants to climb to 1500 agl before turning on course, and it's not mandatory.

The CARs say only two things: in the circuit all turns must be to the left, unless notified in the CFS - and "conform to or avoid" the circuit made by other traffic.

[upintheair_]

15 minutes seems quite excessive to me. At 120 knots that's 30 miles, around here you'd go through 2 other airport's airspace in that distance. Hope you have a second radio on 126.7 during that time. Plus in 15 minutes it's unlikely anyone who heard your initial call will still be around.

Maybe it's less crowded in Ontario though.

Up in NWO, 15 min is kinda the standard. Some places 10. Depending on what airport. It helps with figuring out spacing if someone is showing the same time or flying an approach whereas you're VFR. There's a lot of space out here but it's also pretty busy. If everyone just called 5 min out and final it would be a bit more work. We monitor the local freq and 126.7 at all times, don't worry.

[goingnowherefast]

If there's 6 planes doing circuits and I want to depart, I'm going to make sure I'm well out of their way before turning back towards them. If that means going to 1500', then that's okay. Realistically I'd just follow the circuit around until I've climbed above it. If there's nobody around, then I'll turn much much earlier. Depends on the various types in the circuit too. A King Air departing with a bunch of 150s in the circuit will be a bit different than another 150 departing.

When joining the circuit to land, I'll do exactly that. Join the circuit. There are suggestions to join overhead, downwind, etc., but if I can go straight in final without a conflict, you bet I will. Final is part of the circuit isn't it? If there's 5 planes practicing touch-n-gos, I'll have to come up with some plan to avoid conflicts and land. Maybe it will be joining overhead, maybe there's a gap and I can go in on the base leg.

It's been a long time since I've been doing repeated circuits, but I'd always offer to extend a downwind if it helped somebody out.

We're all trying to aviate safely, courteously and efficiently, I don't see the point of flying a full circuit when I could go straight in final when nobody is around. Just be aware of the other planes around, use your radio (mostly to listen), use your eyes and come up with a plan that will work best for everybody.

Maybe the 6hr a year pilots just need more practice. Seems like a good excuse to fly more

[ahramin]

Realistically I'd just follow the circuit around until I've climbed above it.

This is the worst possible idea. The whole point of waiting until you are above circuit altitude before turning is to keep away from the circuit, specifically while climbing. The last thing you want to do is climb through the same place that everyone is descending.

Never climb through the circuit.

[fleetcanuck]

It is pretty simple really:

602.96
602.97
602.98
602.99
602.100
RAC 4.5.2
602.101
602.102


There is not a whole lot to it. Lots of examples are given and you can apply these to your own situations.

If you want to be pedantic and argue that the AIM is not regulatory that is fine; perhaps good airmanship and other common sense thinking is not your forte either.

If you are making up your own procedures as you go along, you are giving up on all the learning about safety around aerodromes that we have amassed in over a century. You may be OK with it, but it is not OK for the people you put at risk. If you do things your own way because you think you are better than the rest you are setting a poor example for others to learn from. You are also showing those who do know procedures that you are not really that good after all. You are also setting yourself up for a violation if your incorrect actions persuade another pilot to file against you for putting him/her at risk.

[pianokeys]

I think good airmanship is a big thing to adhere to as well. Don't be a dick, do what you and other people are taught is the "right" way to join a circuit and depart an ATF airport, and communicate, tell them what you're going to do, tell them you're doing it. The airport I fly out of has an ATF and has NORDO customers, so to me its important to follow some kind of common practice of 1500' AGL before turning en route or what not.

[goingnowherefast]

Realistically I'd just follow the circuit around until I've climbed above it.

This is the worst possible idea. The whole point of waiting until you are above circuit altitude before turning is to keep away from the circuit, specifically while climbing. The last thing you want to do is climb through the same place that everyone is descending.

Never climb through the circuit.

I never said I'd climb through the circuit. I'd climb with the circuit until I'm above it. Everybody else is climbing on the upwind and crosswind legs. So why can't I? Just once I get to downwind, everybody is level at 1000', I keep climbing.

Why can't I depart the circuit from crosswind, downwind, or even base? Normal circuit traffic starts descending from 1000' on base leg, I don't see why I can't stay at 1000' or climb higher.

This is all assuming flying similar types/speed of aircraft. Obviously it won't work if a King Air is trying to depart with a bunch of 150s in the circuit. It will run them all over.

[Rookie50]

Why not depart the other direction, if it's that busy in the circuit, downwind is already crowded, start the climb on the dead side of the field and depart using a downwind on the dead side Then only have to monitor for inbound traffic from that side.

Doesn't delay me because our downwind leg is on the east side of the field only, and we don't depart directly east ever due to the toronto TCA is right there. If busy I always climb on the west side, away from the busy downwind, and the TCA, Too.

[photofly]

Why can't I depart the circuit from crosswind, downwind, or even base? Normal circuit traffic starts descending from 1000' on base leg, I don't see why I can't stay at 1000' or climb higher.

Because it's harder for the NORDO guy behind you to work out your intentions.

[pianokeys]

Why can't I depart the circuit from crosswind, downwind, or even base? Normal circuit traffic starts descending from 1000' on base leg, I don't see why I can't stay at 1000' or climb higher.

Because it's harder for the NORDO guy behind you to work out your intentions.

Although it seems like a good idea because you're following some kinda standardized procedure, its not. That standardized procedure (downwind, base, final) is for arriving aircraft, not departing. And like photofly said, how is a NORDO pilot supposed to know what you're doing if he/she can't hear your intentions?

It seems like everyone here is familiar with the process of arriving/departing ATF airports, so why not just stick to the script that works? It's not like theres any real operational or safety issues with it anyways... Just good airmanship.

[fleetcanuck]

Goingnowhere...please look at RAC 4.5.2 and the other references I put up. They answer all the questions if you read them and think about it.

If you are going left or right, climb to circuit altitude and proceed on course.

If you are turning back toward the airport, climb to 500 feet above circuit altitude before making the turn.

These rules are pretty simple and they are here for the safety of all of us. Doing anything else creates possible conflicts. Climbing out on the downwind leg is a set up for climbing into traffic you cannot see. That traffic will likely not see you either.

Have a look at the TC diagram. It is colour coded for MF and ATF differences. If you look at it a while and think about your own situations it can be quite informative.

These procedures have evolved over many years and they work. They also work with mixed aircraft types and speeds. I would hate it if someone didn't get home because another pilot thought they would invent some new way of doing the circuit.

[ahramin]

Excellent post fleetcanuck.

[fleetcanuck]

Thanks ahramin.

I read a lot on this last year and learned quite a bit. Found a few things which I had been doing the wrong way either because the procedure had changed since I was trained or that I had forgotten.

In flying we should always be learning how to improve our methods.

[AuxBatOn]

These procedures have evolved over many years and they work. They also work with mixed aircraft types and speeds. I would hate it if someone didn't get home because another pilot thought they would invent some new way of doing the circuit.

So, you think that joining on final is dangerous?

[pianokeys]

These procedures have evolved over many years and they work. They also work with mixed aircraft types and speeds. I would hate it if someone didn't get home because another pilot thought they would invent some new way of doing the circuit.

So, you think that joining on final is dangerous?

I don't think thats what fleetcanuck was trying to say, I don't think joining a straight in-final approach is dangerous. I think fleetcanuck was mentioning that inventing a new way to depart an ATF airport by flying/climbing through the circuit is dangerous.