NWO ops at a halt except for certain operators

[Pinnacle]

I Haven't been active on Avcanada for a while, but after this week it seemed time to speak up. It seems unfair that while most of us are following the rules that kept us on the ground the past 3+ days others continued to fly with 200 ft ceilings and without a usable takeoff alternate for like 300 miles, 3/8 sm departures out or YRL, take offs with aircraft not certified into known icing (painted on inboard boots that don't actually work) with not only the standard mixed icing but FZRA and FZDZ on the GFA. Operators clearly using pseudo GP to CAT 1 minimums at northern airports (YPM), just because it is uncontrolled airspace doesn't mean the current and forecast 400 ft ceilings from your departure AD end on the otherside of the Controle zone.

I was glad to see YXL ATC make a CADORs; props to them, but if we all don't start to put these guy in place I fear there will be serious accidents. If you (ATC/Pilots) hear or see something that isn't right speak up! Make them stutter on the radio and maybe they will think twice about not following rules.

[Blueontop]

+1

The situation with the cador, they were called on it on the radio and the response was "thanks man" (sarcastically) and then proceeded to reduce their speed as a proverbial middle finger! And these people consider themselves professionals

[goingnowherefast]

The situation with the cador, they were called on it on the radio and the response was "thanks man" (sarcastically) and then proceeded to reduce their speed as a proverbial middle finger! And these people consider themselves professionals

Are you referring to the Kasper Air CYXL CADOR, or the Bearskin's CADOR for 3/8sm takeoff in CYRL? I think I already know the answer, just double checking.

FWIW, there were a few hours each day where it was legal to operate IFR. Just needed lots of patience, a keen eye for options; legal and safety related for take-off minimums, take-off alternates, destination minimums, alternate minimums, etc.

[Blueontop]

The situation with the cador, they were called on it on the radio and the response was "thanks man" (sarcastically) and then proceeded to reduce their speed as a proverbial middle finger! And these people consider themselves professionals

Are you referring to the Kasper Air CYXL CADOR, or the Bearskin's CADOR for 3/8sm takeoff in CYRL? I think I already know the answer, just double checking.

YXL Kasper Air CADOR

[Shady McSly]

[GARRETT]

I Haven't been active on Avcanada for a while, but after this week it seemed time to speak up. It seems unfair that while most of us are following the rules that kept us on the ground the past 3+ days others continued to fly with 200 ft ceilings and without a usable takeoff alternate for like 300 miles, 3/8 sm departures out or YRL, take offs with aircraft not certified into known icing (painted on inboard boots that don't actually work) with not only the standard mixed icing but FZRA and FZDZ on the GFA. Operators clearly using pseudo GP to CAT 1 minimums at northern airports (YPM), just because it is uncontrolled airspace doesn't mean the current and forecast 400 ft ceilings from your departure AD end on the otherside of the Controle zone.

I was glad to see YXL ATC make a CADORs; props to them, but if we all don't start to put these guy in place I fear there will be serious accidents. If you (ATC/Pilots) hear or see something that isn't right speak up! Make them stutter on the radio and maybe they will think twice about not following rules.

With all due respect, WTF difference does it make to you what sh**ty operators do everyday? Just do your own job safely and professionally and don't get worked up about things that are, quite frankly, none of your business. You can't control what they do so just stop losing sleep over it. If they want to break rules and fly unsafe to "git-r-done", it'll be up the them to face the consequences. Life isn't fair, get used to it.

[DanWEC]

"Haven't been active on Avcanada for a while" yet it says you joined yesterday? I'm all for spreading the word, and it seems these guys deserve it, but is it me or has there suddenly been a whole bunch of brand new "first time posters" all suddenly starting the same stories about this operator? Not like they've employed hundreds of people across their huge fleet...
It's just getting a bit obvious here and a bit annoying.

[CpnCrunch]

With all due respect, WTF difference does it make to you what sh**ty operators do everyday? Just do your own job safely and professionally and don't get worked up about things that are, quite frankly, none of your business. You can't control what they do so just stop losing sleep over it. If they want to break rules and fly unsafe to "git-r-done", it'll be up the them to face the consequences. Life isn't fair, get used to it.

I think it's reasonable to get pissed off if you follow the rules and then someone comes in and steals your business by breaking the rules and operating on the cheap. They're also putting the general public in danger, which is probably something that you should be concerned about.

[Pinnacle]

I chose to make a more anonymous profile.

When flight crews choose to not follow rules it creates potential unsafe conditions for us all. My intent wasn't to create a thread to bash anyone, but to make it known that this it isn't right. Maybe people will think a little more about the decisions they make and how they can effect others. This is GOOD AIRMANSHIP! some of theres pilots don't just fly for small operators, they are 704/705 as well.

[GARRETT]

I think it's reasonable to get pissed off if you follow the rules and then someone comes in and steals your business by breaking the rules and operating on the cheap. They're also putting the general public in danger, which is probably something that you should be concerned about.

I totally agree with you, but what the heck are you going to do about it? What CAN you do about it? If it's bugging you guys so much, call TC and report it I guess? I dunno. When I was new in the business I worked around companies that seem to always 'make it in" as we are all going around, I completely get the frustration. Maybe because I'm older now I don't really seem to give a rat's a$$ what other pilots do. I certainly don't care enough to get all hot under the collar about it. I just make sure I'm doing the job I'm paid for safely and professionally, end of story. If you really feel someone is going to die, don't bitch about it on Avcanada. Report it to TC! I'm sure they will get right on it.

[springlocked]

I think it's reasonable to get pissed off if you follow the rules and then someone comes in and steals your business

While I don't think what is going on is very smart I do wonder why certain people have their shit in such a knot over it. I personally don't care what decisions others make and I certainly don't get pissed if the above happens. In fact I would help anyone if I could if they had troubles up north, regardless who they worked for. Let the companies worry about business and policing their own. We are all pilots and should stick together. Worry what happens on our own flight deck and not what is going on in others.

Consequences will always catch up to bad operators and bullies, working for such a company as a pilot does not necessarily make you a bad guy as well. Likely just a first timer trying to live long enough to catch a reasonable job. We can only hope that bull shit luck holds out and there is no scraps and bruises.

[tipsails]

Seems there is reference to Bearskins 3/8th SM take off from YRL here as well. Does anyone know if they have the ops spec for that? Remember even if it's below take of minima, even if the company has the ops spec FSS and ATC will still issue CADORS. Take for example Westjet/AC/Jazz etc. Lots of CADORS for under minima take offs but they have the ops spec for it.

[cdnpilot77]

I think it's reasonable to get pissed off if you follow the rules and then someone comes in and steals your business

While I don't think what is going on is very smart I do wonder why certain people have their shit in such a knot over it. I personally don't care what decisions others make and I certainly don't get pissed if the above happens. In fact I would help anyone if I could if they had troubles up north, regardless who they worked for. Let the companies worry about business and policing their own. We are all pilots and should stick together. Worry what happens on our own flight deck and not what is going on in others.

Consequences will always catch up to bad operators and bullies, working for such a company as a pilot does not necessarily make you a bad guy as well. Likely just a first timer trying to live long enough to catch a reasonable job. We can only hope that bull shit luck holds out and there is no scraps and bruises.

Sure it doesn't bother you until you get t-boned by one of these guys. I suppose you wouldn't care then either....you would never feel it!

It's not always pressure from companies, sometimes people are just idiots. You can train a person to fly, you can't train away the stupid.

[lownslow]

...someone comes in and steals your business by breaking the rules and operating on the cheap.

Life is better without those kinds of customers anyways. Piss 'em off, it will make more room on your schedule for the good ones who appreciate safe operations and are willing to pay a little more for it.

[DanWEC]

...someone comes in and steals your business by breaking the rules and operating on the cheap.

Life is better without those kinds of customers anyways. Piss 'em off, it will make more room on your schedule for the good ones who appreciate safe operations and are willing to pay a little more for it.

Agreed, Is this adversarial system the way operators work with each other?? Brutal! We should all be on the same team boys!

Quick story- I worked construction and PM in a medium sized city. There were about 8 good sized firms. Once a month we would literally sit down over drinks and dinner and hash out whose tender would get what contact with ourselves. Nobody undercut each other because they know they'd have to look that guy in the eye that month. An RFP was met with a fair proposal and that was it. No gouging, and no undercutting. And NO poor workmanship. EVER.

We were all on the same team.

[esp803]

Isn't that price fixing?

E

Also, Chisel air is in, but we don't pay our pilots, they pay us... I still get to keep that right?

[DanWEC]

Where are the pretzel monies?[googlevid]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X_zVKQBzvhA[/googlevid]

[SmokinJoe]

If it bothers you that much then file a CAIRS report. h ttps://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/opssvs/s ... nu-209.htm

[Pop n Fresh]

Where are the pretzel monies?

[springlocked]

Sure it doesn't bother you until you get t-boned by one of these guys. I suppose you wouldn't care then either....you would never feel it!

Why would this happen if you are taking care of business on your own flight deck. I don't hear any complaints that these guys are in stealth mode. They are talking on the radio and if you can't manage that now I am worried. Why does it become a company thing and us as pilots taking offence if passengers or freight end up on the competition. As a pilot I could care less and my main duty is to fly the fucking aircraft not worry why my company is not attracting business. Are we pilots or are we owners. Just do our jobs to the best of our ability and stop worrying about what the other guy is doing. If you drive the guy under ground and he is listening and not talking on the radio. Now that is an issue. Stop pointing fingers like a bunch of little kids and worry about our own ass. As long as these guys are communicating we are better off and have control over what we do. We don't need surprises of unannounced traffic in an area where that is still 30 years behind in facilities and mentality.

As I said. This will all shake out in the long run. Hopefully from the business end and not because of tragedy. Whatever the reasons we have little control over it.

[goingnowherefast]

Seems there is reference to Bearskins 3/8th SM take off from YRL here as well. Does anyone know if they have the ops spec for that? Remember even if it's below take of minima, even if the company has the ops spec FSS and ATC will still issue CADORS. Take for example Westjet/AC/Jazz etc. Lots of CADORS for under minima take offs but they have the ops spec for it.

I don't think CYRL is equipped or approved for LVOP/RVOP, even if Bearskin has the ops spec. Bearskin has a pretty good reputation, respects the rules and their pilots are generally very professional. I bet this was an honest mistake, and the chief pilot had a chat with the crew about it. You fly around as often as Bearskin, with that many aircraft, and there's going to be an occasional oopsie like this.

To prove they even did anything wrong, you'd have to go back and dig through the weather reports and radio tapes. They may have started taxiing at 5/8ths mile, the vis dropped, and the crew wasn't informed by FSS before they pushed the levers forward. Don't know, I wasn't there, just giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[tipsails]

Yeah, that was pretty much my thoughts on it. Just didn't have the most current weather from FSS before starting the roll and ta-da... CADORS.

[flythatwing]

...someone comes in and steals your business by breaking the rules and operating on the cheap.

Life is better without those kinds of customers anyways. Piss 'em off, it will make more room on your schedule for the good ones who appreciate safe operations and are willing to pay a little more for it.

That is so true. I know a couple of guys who fly shady mexican ILSs into different lodges and reserves up north and they brag about it too! Some even do it on 26.7! Dumb F**KS! Quite possibly the stupidest thing you can do and I will never understand why they do it! What's in it for you ? You are putting your life and your innocent passengers life at risk to please your boss ? Is your job worth your life ?

This past summer I turned down/delayed a couple of charters/bumped freight for a difficult customer who expected his charters to always go, and always be maxed out even coming out of his short uneven runway. Result was that he didn't want me to fly his charters anymore... And that was the best news I heard all summer! instead I got all the good charters with no loading, no muddy boots and mainly into half decent gravel strips instead. Funny how things workout.

Of course lucky for me I work for an employer that supports my decisions and has my back 100% of the time!

If you suspect your plane is overweight bump some freight, If you are not comfortable delay/cancel the charter. And for God's sake have a freaking scale and WEIGH THE BAGGAGE AND FREIGHT!!! You won't believe how many times I have been told that no one else weighs anything and they just go! You have 8-9 fatties with their oversized gear and you are taking off a muddy 3000' strip with water at each end! learn to say no and have a backbone. Shady/pushy operators and customers have a habit of capitalizing on guys that don't know when or how to say no and will run you under the bus the second you make a mistake!

Say NO!

[godsrcrazy]

I Haven't been active on Avcanada for a while, but after this week it seemed time to speak up. It seems unfair that while most of us are following the rules that kept us on the ground the past 3+ days others continued to fly with 200 ft ceilings and without a usable takeoff alternate for like 300 miles, 3/8 sm departures out or YRL, take offs with aircraft not certified into known icing (painted on inboard boots that don't actually work) with not only the standard mixed icing but FZRA and FZDZ on the GFA. Operators clearly using pseudo GP to CAT 1 minimums at northern airports (YPM), just because it is uncontrolled airspace doesn't mean the current and forecast 400 ft ceilings from your departure AD end on the otherside of the Controle zone.

I was glad to see YXL ATC make a CADORs; props to them, but if we all don't start to put these guy in place I fear there will be serious accidents. If you (ATC/Pilots) hear or see something that isn't right speak up! Make them stutter on the radio and maybe they will think twice about not following rules.

With all due respect, WTF difference does it make to you what sh**ty operators do everyday? Just do your own job safely and professionally and don't get worked up about things that are, quite frankly, none of your business. You can't control what they do so just stop losing sleep over it. If they want to break rules and fly unsafe to "git-r-done", it'll be up the them to face the consequences. Life isn't fair, get used to it.

What matters is every time someone crashes and kills them selfs and even worse their passengers it gives everyone a bad name. The average traveling public knows no difference between a operator that runs by the rules and one that continually breaks them. All they hear and know is some pilot broke the rules and killed their family our friends .

[oldtimer]

I had to chuckle over the comments about having a scale and weighing cargo. Many moons ago, I was doing a bank document run with a Gulfstream G1. Leaving home base in the morning, we were given a slip with the total weight and away we went but we were lucky in the fact that even with lots of granny fuel we were always a minimum of 1500 lbs below MTOW because zero fuel weight of the airplane was the limiting factor. But coming home, we had a different scene. One supervisor claimed he had a "click stop elbow" and could guess weights real good. But we were always a minimum of 2000 pounds or more below MTOW. Finally, I asked one super how he came up with the loads we were carrying. He said as he drove to the airport he saw some chicks on the sidewalk. One had a 42 inch bust and the other had a 32 inch bust so our load was 4232 that evening. Next evening he saw a chick that was 55 inches across the butt and had a 38 inch bust so our load was 5538. Our carrying capacity in the airplane was 7400 lbs. Shortly after, we got a scale and strangely enough click stop elbow was in fact quite accurate in his guesses.
First real exposure with UPS, I saw them offload 50 lbs so the airplane would not be overweight. Dealing with Fedex, we were bulking out so I suggested 200 pounds in the nose baggage so approx 200 pounds were put in a cart which was driven into the office and weighed. We had I think 195 pounds or so. No guess, exact weight. That is why I stayed with air cargo with principled operators and customers.