2016 Course Dates and Positions

[basler]

I was wondering if there was any insight to purposed course dates and positions for 2016.

Thanks.

[yycflyguy]

The Company plans to hire a total of 160-180 new hires by July 2016. The current plan is to have three courses (20 pilots each) by the end of 2015 with the remainder hired by the summer of 2016. Bid 15-06 will fine tune the Company's plans for the summer of 2016. Increases to 787 positions (9 aircraft) are planned for the later part of 2016, which will cover the deliveries for 2017. We are expecting the first 737 positions to show up on Bid 17-01 or 17-02.

[skier_777]

Anyone happen to know if off the street hiring will start up again in 2016? Or will all those slots be filled with flow through / pool folks. Haven't seen a pilot job posting in quite some time.

[flying4dollars]

Anyone happen to know if off the street hiring will start up again in 2016? Or will all those slots be filled with flow through / pool folks. Haven't seen a pilot job posting in quite some time.

From what I understand, 80% of future hires at AC will come from Jazz, with the remaining 20% coming from all other Express carriers and military. In the near future it will be 80% Express carriers and 20% military. This info came from a meeting with one of Air Canada's top managers. Maybe some AC pilots can confirm this.

[Mr. North]

From what I understand, 80% of future hires at AC will come from Jazz, with the remaining 20% coming from all other Express carriers and military. In the near future it will be 80% Express carriers and 20% military. This info came from a meeting with one of Air Canada's top managers. Maybe some AC pilots can confirm this.

I sincerely hope that's not the case. I can understand having flow from Jazz and AC Express carriers but to end OTS hires completely? Why would they do that? I always thought that having talent from every corner of this industry was a good thing, it's what made that company what it is. Even if going forward the OTS was just 20%, it would be an incredibly competitive pool and a real shame if they turned a blind eye to the experience within it.

[rudder]

I sincerely hope that's not the case. I can understand having flow from Jazz and AC Express carriers but to end OTS hires completely? Why would they do that? I always thought that having talent from every corner of this industry was a good thing, it's what made that company what it is. Even if going forward the OTS was just 20%, it would be an incredibly competitive pool and a real shame if they turned a blind eye to the experience within it.

Because AC's problem is not finding pilots to fly its passengers on AC metal but instead finding pilots to fly its passengers on Express metal. Therefore the PML incentive to fill pilot positions at Express. It is just business. Look what WJ did with Encore. Same objective.

[Old fella]

I sincerely hope that's not the case. I can understand having flow from Jazz and AC Express carriers but to end OTS hires completely? Why would they do that? I always thought that having talent from every corner of this industry was a good thing, it's what made that company what it is. Even if going forward the OTS was just 20%, it would be an incredibly competitive pool and a real shame if they turned a blind eye to the experience within it.

Because AC's problem is not finding pilots to fly its passengers on AC metal but instead finding pilots to fly its passengers on Express metal. Therefore the PML incentive to fill pilot positions at Express. It is just business. Look what WJ did with Encore. Same objective.

Silly question time from a non-airline type. If one wished to join AC mainline and fly their heavy iron at some future date and said mainline is taking most/all of their new recruits from all their feeder type airlines, whats wrong with getting a flying position at the Express metal et al and wait your turn to move into the big Air Canada.

[sstaurus]

I sincerely hope that's not the case. I can understand having flow from Jazz and AC Express carriers but to end OTS hires completely? Why would they do that? I always thought that having talent from every corner of this industry was a good thing, it's what made that company what it is. Even if going forward the OTS was just 20%, it would be an incredibly competitive pool and a real shame if they turned a blind eye to the experience within it.

Because AC's problem is not finding pilots to fly its passengers on AC metal but instead finding pilots to fly its passengers on Express metal. Therefore the PML incentive to fill pilot positions at Express. It is just business. Look what WJ did with Encore. Same objective.

Silly question time from a non-airline type. If one wished to join AC mainline and fly their heavy iron at some future date and said mainline is taking most/all of their new recruits from all their feeder type airlines, whats wrong with getting a flying position at the Express metal et al and wait your turn to move into the big Air Canada.

Because the compensation is pretty miserable at all the express/regional carriers. Most of us would prefer to avoid going that route if possible. If only everyone would refuse to take those jobs... Wow that would be a real pilot utopia...

[BingBong]

Because the compensation is pretty miserable at all the express/regional carriers.

Never used to be

If only everyone would refuse to take those jobs

Again than the Encore, Sky and GGN pilots for what's happend.

[loopa]

Anyone happen to know if off the street hiring will start up again in 2016? Or will all those slots be filled with flow through / pool folks. Haven't seen a pilot job posting in quite some time.

From what I understand, 80% of future hires at AC will come from Jazz, with the remaining 20% coming from all other Express carriers and military. In the near future it will be 80% Express carriers and 20% military. This info came from a meeting with one of Air Canada's top managers. Maybe some AC pilots can confirm this.

I think everyone needs to get their facts straight about what AC is doing.

This is now the n'th version of AC's hiring plans that I've heard.

Version 1. Jazz PML has to be exhausted then PML formed with all Express Carriers containing 80% of all AC hiring. 20% OTS. The 80% would be determined based on the ratio of pilot's at each company, so Jazz would still have the largest level of PML Interview's than say EVAS.

Version 2. Jazz PML is causing issues because people are deferring courses, so presently AC is accepting people into their classes from all Express carriers, including GGN/SKY.

Version 3. February 2016 is when OTS applications will be accepted.

Version 4. Air Canada can't possibly pull all of its recruits from the CPA carriers without exhausting what is already a multitude of skeleton run companies, because it would have to park its regional planes, as a result getting hired at AC actually opts out to be a better chance by avoiding the express carriers.

The best part is that all of the versions have come from "top management" at Air Canada. Not trying to demean your post flying4dollars, I just have heard so many versions of AC's plans that nothing seems to bear any integrity any more. Personally I'd like to believe Version 4 to be the case as it makes the most amount of sense. Time will tell. One thing I know about airline managers is that they are all schemers trying to herd sheep, and most of us are the sheep that are willing to fall for their agendas. Once their agenda is met and they have fooled enough of us to go to the regionals, sit and watch as they start taking direct applications into the mainlines. Want to speak business? Why fill 2 seats when you can only fill 1. As in, why empty the Express Seat and Train them at AC, when you have to pay for the Express seat to be filled again. They aren't doing that because they think we look cool in our ray bans and deserve career progression. Where there's smoke, there's fire. I just think they are causing a sense of 'crisis' by making all of us believe the only way to fulfil our dreams of flying in the big leagues is by taking part in their solution, the regional flow programs. The best part is that there are a lot of "plans" to have things set in place with the regionals, but look at the number of airlines that had "flow" in the US that just dissipated out of no where?

Could all of the above be the notes of a conspiracy theorist? Maybe - but things in the past seem to indicate these Airline managers are still not in it for us. What ever makes their pockets deeper will prevail the set of conditions/opportunities that will present themselves. And they are so good at making us believe that their agenda is such a good one!

[PositiveRate27]

Loopa, you talk about rumors on here as much or more than the average person. Consider yourself part of the uncertainty and confusion problem. Even if you throw out a disclaimer that what yoh claim are are rumors, the concepts still spread like wild fire.

The only people that actually know what is going to happen are the people in AC management. That's the way it's always going to be. For now, I suggest anyone contemplating an AC express carrier, pick the one that will make you happiest long term and let the chips fall where they may. Certainly dont go for the sole purpose of flow through. Ask anyone in any airline if they are at the job they though they would have 30 years ago and they'll most likely say no.

[loopa]

I tend to disagree - if I'm telling you something is solely a rumour and not a fact, then I expect you to be responsible enough about how you circumvent it. I can't take responsibility for you spreading rumours as facts. 9 times out of 10 I also ask whether what I've heard is true. But I'll agree that I'm as confused as the rest as to what's actually going on.

Certainly don't go for the sole purpose of flow through.

While that's good advice, I don't know if the majority of people going to the CPA's will adhere to this mindset. I think what is on everyone's mind is picking the "best route" to the major airline in question when they consider the regional's today. It's not like before where people went to the likes of Jazz to actually stay there, where regional flying was affordable and came equipped with a good lifestyle. Agree?

[Kosiw]

I tend to disagree - if I'm telling you something is solely a rumour and not a fact, then I expect you to be responsible enough about how you circumvent it. I can't take responsibility for you spreading rumours as facts. 9 times out of 10 I also ask whether what I've heard is true.

Certainly don't go for the sole purpose of flow through.

While that's good advice, I don't know if the majority of people going to the CPA's will adhere to this mindset. I think what is on everyone's mind is picking the "best route" to the major airline in question when they consider the regional's. Do you agree?

Your last statement is where a potential problem will occur for AC and their CPA operators, as regionals become places "nobody wants to be at", the term "stepping stone" is disingenuous and this can cause a poisonous work place with everyone climbing over each other to get to mainline and money is at the root of it. Both AC and WJ created this MO, and its leading to unhappy work environments.

No time to stop and smell the roses.

[PositiveRate27]

I tend to disagree - if I'm telling you something is solely a rumour and not a fact, then I expect you to be responsible enough about how you circumvent it. I can't take responsibility for you spreading rumours as facts. 9 times out of 10 I also ask whether what I've heard is true. But I'll agree that I'm as confused as the rest as to what's actually going on.

Certainly don't go for the sole purpose of flow through.

While that's good advice, I don't know if the majority of people going to the CPA's will adhere to this mindset. I think what is on everyone's mind is picking the "best route" to the major airline in question when they consider the regional's today. It's not like before where people went to the likes of Jazz to actually stay there, where regional flying was affordable and came equipped with a good lifestyle. Agree?

Disagree, at least in my case. I was applying at Jazz for years before the latest contract and was called 2 months after it was set in stone. Still went with the intention of longer term stability. The lifestyle has been a huge step up from where I was before, I usually work 15 days a month. The pay isn't much less than where I was, and if projected upgrades stay true I'll be more than the top end of the payscale at my old company in 2-4 years. If AC calls my name I'll gladly go, and I'll be in a position to make the transition. If they don't, I will continue to enjoy the awesome people, work environment and life style at Jazz.

Everyone should ask themselves if they will be able to say the same if GGN, EVAS etc don't end up flowing them to AC.

Food for thought

PR

[loopa]

Posrate, I'd say you're probably the minority of the demographic applying for these jobs. Assuming the level of pay wasn't much of a change for you, it must of meant you came off a 703/704 type operator into Jazz. I think truth of the matter is that the majority going to the Jazz's, EVAS, GGN are solely going there and "putting up" with less than ideal situations in order to flow to the mainline. You may not find the impact in salary leaving a 703/704 gig, but not cracking 40k in the first 3 years at Jazz is not the lifestyle it once produced.

In your argument of going to other CPA's, I think Sky Regional gets the win right now with working conditions. After digging deeper into it, they are making 50k as F/O's, more productive pairings starting May of 2016, quick upgrades, and a PML set in stone after 2 years of service with the company. The nice thing is your travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC.

I don't know how long term Jazz can be counted on. If I recall correctly there's no plan post 2025 at the moment. There could be longevity there, but there also could not.

I still don't think it makes financial sense for AC to replace 2 seats on a long term basis. For the ones going to the regional's for the mainline flow, I truly believe a light has been created at the end of the tunnel; I just hope this light doesn't end up being a train as it does 9 times out of 10 in our industry.

Either way, we won't know much further today. I'm glad Jazz worked for you PositiveRate27.

[altiplano]

I don't know why guys are so hard on the regionals, I would have loved a job at Jazz, and I tried hard to get one for many years. Of course I'd rather a mainline job. But I always imagined Jazz would have been alright - good benefits, good training, safe equipment, pension...

travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC

If you mean you get better travel benefits when you go to Air Canada than you're correct. But that's true of all the CPA carriers. You go from I believe C4 at CPAs to B1 & C2 as a mainline pilot.

If you mean you retain a seniority / service date for pass travel than you're incorrect.

New hire is a new hire afforded the same benefits as the next guy. Only exception would be an employee in another Air Canada department with an Air Canada service date who gets hired as a pilot while still holding their position or on a LOA from that position. CPA service dates are not Air Canada service dates.

[bruced007]

Well If AC continues flushing out pilots from Jazz, GGN and encore your gonna be left with guys with 1500hrs on the left seat of the CRJ and dashs and guys with 10000hrs on the right seat of mainline equipment? just saying if the trend continues? All the best to all

[loopa]

I don't know why guys are so hard on the regionals, I would have loved a job at Jazz, and I tried hard to get one for many years. Of course I'd rather a mainline job. But I always imagined Jazz would have been alright - good benefits, good training, safe equipment, pension...

travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC

If you mean you get better travel benefits when you go to Air Canada than you're correct. But that's true of all the CPA carriers. You go from I believe C4 at CPAs to B1 & C2 as a mainline pilot.

If you mean you retain a seniority / service date for pass travel than you're incorrect.

New hire is a new hire afforded the same benefits as the next guy. Only exception would be an employee in another Air Canada department with an Air Canada service date who gets hired as a pilot while still holding their position or on a LOA from that position. CPA service dates are not Air Canada service dates.

The way I understand it to work is that if you've put in your 6 months at a CPA carrier, you don't have to wait for 6 months to have your AC travel privileges. You will have them right away when/if you flow. Albeit your priority changes.

Everything else however is mended as a new hire - so what you said is correct sir.

The best part about this PML with the express carriers is that you're signing up for less than ideal working conditions justifying a short-term pain = long-term gain philosophy. Except your long term gain is predicated on you simply being in line for an interview, nothing else. Granted some bias will be applied towards your CPA background, but you still need to prove/earn your spot in order to make the flow; that's if the PML actually has any integrity attached to it. Hence why I think this agenda smells like the devils smoke. If AC was truly interested in creating "career progression" and "retention programs" for the express carriers, why wouldn't they guarantee a flow through agreement with no extra hoops to jump through? They could make the CPA interview the last AC related interview/selection one goes through - then simply a matter of time before you get called up. WestJet is doing it - and providing seniority to boot.

Just don't forget that the real reason AC created a PML was to remove highly paid salaries at Jazz so that they can compete with Encore. Why on earth would they want to take away from their already low-salaried CPA positions to only pay for their training at AC, and pay for their replacement at the CPA level? Makes no sense for a corporation interested in reducing its costs in order to sustain competitiveness. Even if you argue that they will reduce their costs due to lack of attrition, people will put up with nonsense for so long before AC isn't worth the present pain any more. Time will tell I guess.

[PositiveRate27]

I don't know why guys are so hard on the regionals, I would have loved a job at Jazz, and I tried hard to get one for many years. Of course I'd rather a mainline job. But I always imagined Jazz would have been alright - good benefits, good training, safe equipment, pension...

travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC

If you mean you get better travel benefits when you go to Air Canada than you're correct. But that's true of all the CPA carriers. You go from I believe C4 at CPAs to B1 & C2 as a mainline pilot.

If you mean you retain a seniority / service date for pass travel than you're incorrect.

New hire is a new hire afforded the same benefits as the next guy. Only exception would be an employee in another Air Canada department with an Air Canada service date who gets hired as a pilot while still holding their position or on a LOA from that position. CPA service dates are not Air Canada service dates.

The way I understand it to work is that if you've put in your 6 months at a CPA carrier, you don't have to wait for 6 months to have your AC travel privileges. You will have them right away when/if you flow. Albeit your priority changes.

Everything else however is mended as a new hire - so what you said is correct sir.

The best part about this PML with the express carriers is that you're signing up for less than ideal working conditions to wait in line for an interview. Granted some bias will be applied towards your CPA background, but you still need to prove/earn your spot in order to make the flow; that's if the PML actually has any integrity attached to it. Hence why I think this agenda smells like the devils smoke. If AC was truly interested in creating "career progression" and "retention programs" for the express carriers, why wouldn't they guarantee a flow through agreement with no extra hoops to jump through? They could make the CPA interview the last AC related interview/selection one goes through - then simply a matter of time before you get called up. WestJet is doing it - and providing seniority to boot.

West Jet is doing these interviews with their own staff on their own terms. Do you think EVAS and GGN have the same hiring standards as Jazz and Sky? I wouldn't comment about working conditions either. Encore guys work much much harder than Jazz folks. I've read the terms and conditions and they don't hold a candle. Have you been selected out of the pool at Encore yet? I'm genuinely curious how Encore compares to other no-regional 705 flying.

[altiplano]

Lol... Yeah it's a total conspiracy...

I think you've been into that "devil's smoke" there loopa.

[loopa]

West Jet is doing these interviews with their own staff on their own terms. Do you think EVAS and GGN have the same hiring standards as Jazz and Sky? I wouldn't comment about working conditions either. Encore guys work much much harder than Jazz folks. I've read the terms and conditions and they don't hold a candle. Have you been selected out of the pool at Encore yet? I'm genuinely curious how Encore compares to other no-regional 705 flying.

No body holds the best candle in the regional world. It's a race of who gets burned by the melting wax the most. But if we are comparing conditions, seniority will go the furthest for any stable airline career. This starting at a CPA level, to find yourself stuck there for years before you get to reset on a brand new seniority list has got to issue some serious life style concerns. Especially if it does turn out true that OTS hiring is open and now you're stuck in the CPA program. Food for thought.

You kind of answered your own question with your question. No, EVAS and GGN don't have the same hiring standards as Jazz and Sky. Yet all of you 4 companies are going to be supposedly treated the same when the initial PML has expired. The thing is, AC wants to maintain "retention" at these supposed regional levels, but it's all predicated on a giant gamble where a good percentage of you CPA pilots run the risk of not ever making it to mainline due to the hoops that are in place. What ever you justify I guess.

If you're genuinely interested in how my career has panned out (better than anything I could imagine), feel free to send me a PM. Some great folks have been keeping in touch. I welcome you as well positive rate. Maybe our chats will lead to better insight.

Oh alti - if you only knew HAHAH I've said time over that I don't know what will actually unfold, but if I was a betting man, I would bet that what you see today is not how things will actually unfold. Time will tell like I said.

[Oxi]

Curious also what you currently do in this industry Loopa as you seem to have knowledge on Westjet hiring process, the PML list at Jazz and other CPA carriers.

[fruitloops]

Excellent commentary everyone, great points of views/sharing of information. This is what these boards are about! The better we understand the industry the better decisions we will make for our future and others.

[fruitloops]

Sorry for the double post - but AC isn't really paying for the training at regionals 'directly' but rather 'indirectly' to some extent?? So it's not really AC's problem or on their books in the end is it? I didn't think the CPA's had training costs separated or do they?

[rooster]

Posrate, I'd say you're probably the minority of the demographic applying for these jobs. Assuming the level of pay wasn't much of a change for you, it must of meant you came off a 703/704 type operator into Jazz. I think truth of the matter is that the majority going to the Jazz's, EVAS, GGN are solely going there and "putting up" with less than ideal situations in order to flow to the mainline. You may not find the impact in salary leaving a 703/704 gig, but not cracking 40k in the first 3 years at Jazz is not the lifestyle it once produced.

In your argument of going to other CPA's, I think Sky Regional gets the win right now with working conditions. After digging deeper into it, they are making 50k as F/O's, more productive pairings starting May of 2016, quick upgrades, and a PML set in stone after 2 years of service with the company. The nice thing is your travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC.

I don't know how long term Jazz can be counted on. If I recall correctly there's no plan post 2025 at the moment. There could be longevity there, but there also could not.

I still don't think it makes financial sense for AC to replace 2 seats on a long term basis. For the ones going to the regional's for the mainline flow, I truly believe a light has been created at the end of the tunnel; I just hope this light doesn't end up being a train as it does 9 times out of 10 in our industry.

Either way, we won't know much further today. I'm glad Jazz worked for you PositiveRate27.

G

Posrate, I'd say you're probably the minority of the demographic applying for these jobs. Assuming the level of pay wasn't much of a change for you, it must of meant you came off a 703/704 type operator into Jazz. I think truth of the matter is that the majority going to the Jazz's, EVAS, GGN are solely going there and "putting up" with less than ideal situations in order to flow to the mainline. You may not find the impact in salary leaving a 703/704 gig, but not cracking 40k in the first 3 years at Jazz is not the lifestyle it once produced.

In your argument of going to other CPA's, I think Sky Regional gets the win right now with working conditions. After digging deeper into it, they are making 50k as F/O's, more productive pairings starting May of 2016, quick upgrades, and a PML set in stone after 2 years of service with the company. The nice thing is your travel benefits stay intact when you flow to AC.

I don't know how long term Jazz can be counted on. If I recall correctly there's no plan post 2025 at the moment. There could be longevity there, but there also could not.

I still don't think it makes financial sense for AC to replace 2 seats on a long term basis. For the ones going to the regional's for the mainline flow, I truly believe a light has been created at the end of the tunnel; I just hope this light doesn't end up being a train as it does 9 times out of 10 in our industry.

Either way, we won't know much further today. I'm glad Jazz worked for you PositiveRate27.

Loopa, for a guy who isn't even in ac's 'network', I don't think you're in much of a position to explain how things happen.

You say people come to regionals to put up with less than ideal conditions until ac calls. Well I know that many people have come to the regionals to better their careers before moving on and many have done just that. Also, many have chosen to stay put. Not everyone going wants to work for ac or even wj.

You say sky is the winner? Well jazz Georgian and evas all have their pml's set in stone. Yes sky fo's make more but at evas and Georgian you're getting command MUCH quicker than sky. There's captains at Georgian on the 1900 making very close to, if not reaching 6 figs with on the t4. That's obviously with ot but that's still pretty impressive. I hear evas offers some really good incentives for captains as well. Keeping travel benefits when moving to AC is something all express companies keep. Yes upgrade times at jazz are still longer but that's cuz there's a lot more senior guys sticking around vs moving on. I know a few sky pilots who came from evas and Georgian and they ALL say sky is very similar when it comes to scheduling issues and office bs.

There's no clear cut winner really. It's all a matter of opinion. Kinda funny how you come here telling everyone that their facts are wrong and you try and correct them without even working for an ac 'product'.

Cheerio