Looks like things are going south again in Canada's Aviation Industry..
Looks Like it Might Be Over for AC
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
Looks Like it Might Be Over for AC
According to the news today Trinity Time and Victor Li are wiping their hands clean of the whole Air Canada mess.
Looks like things are going south again in Canada's Aviation Industry..
Looks like things are going south again in Canada's Aviation Industry..
Sorry here is an excerpt from Bloomberg news!!
April 2 (Bloomberg) -- Victor Li's Trinity Time Investments Ltd. said it won't seek an extension on its agreement with Air Canada past April 30, signaling a pullback from its plan to invest C$650 million ($495 million) in the insolvent airline.
Trinity had been seeking more concessions from Air Canada's unions.
April 2 (Bloomberg) -- Victor Li's Trinity Time Investments Ltd. said it won't seek an extension on its agreement with Air Canada past April 30, signaling a pullback from its plan to invest C$650 million ($495 million) in the insolvent airline.
Trinity had been seeking more concessions from Air Canada's unions.
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North Shore
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If you go to CBC.Ca, you'll see the text of the article about Li et al walking away. Jigsaw piece #2 is that AC just asked for a large extension to their bankruptcy protection - but were only granted to Apr 15th (Caveat: I'm not a bankruptcy specialist, but this is how I understand the current shape of things.)
Put the two pieces together, and Ac looks to be in deep shiitake. Time will tell.
Put the two pieces together, and Ac looks to be in deep shiitake. Time will tell.
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Trinity Time walks away from Air Canada investment
Last Updated Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:26:07 EST
TORONTO - Trinity Time Investments said Friday it will not go ahead with its proposed $650-million investment in Air Canada – at least for the time being – making good on an earlier threat to walk away if unions did not agree to more concessions.
However, Trinity Time said it did not rule out getting involved in Air Canada's restructuring in the future "if circumstances change sufficiently."
"We are of course disappointed in this outcome," Trinity director Harold Gordon said in a statement which released Air Canada from its exclusive investment deal with the company. Air Canada, it said, is now free to try to find another key equity investor.
Gordon said Air Canada's financial performance was "somewhat weaker" that Trinity Time had expected. "In particular, labour cost and productivity savings promised by Air Canada's unions under Air Canada's collective agreements are not being fully achieved," he said.
Trinity Time, owned by Victor Li, also blamed high fuel costs and said yields and margins "remain under pressure."
"Air Canada's earnings outlook is adverse to our expectations, reflecting among other things a more intense competitive environment generally and a higher level of domestic capacity and competition than expected."
But Trinity's Gordon left no doubt that he felt the biggest reason why Trinity Time was not prepared to invest its money at this time was the airline's labour situation.
He called this week's signing of a pension deal with the machinists union "a meaningful step" but said it wasn't enough.
"Regretfully, this step is not reflective of the positions taken by union leaders representing more than two-thirds of Air Canada's employees," Gordon said.
"We have concluded from this that without a change in the manner in which Air Canada's employees are organized and their interests represented, Air Canada will not likely achieve a sufficient fresh start to prosper and grow in the competitive environment which it faces after emerging from CCAA [creditor] protection."
The withdrawal of Trinity Time as the lead equity investor in Air Canada throws a wrench into the airline's plans to emerge from creditor protection. That protection expires April 15.
Air Canada filed for creditor protection April 1 last year.
Written by CBC News Online staff
Last Updated Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:26:07 EST
TORONTO - Trinity Time Investments said Friday it will not go ahead with its proposed $650-million investment in Air Canada – at least for the time being – making good on an earlier threat to walk away if unions did not agree to more concessions.
However, Trinity Time said it did not rule out getting involved in Air Canada's restructuring in the future "if circumstances change sufficiently."
"We are of course disappointed in this outcome," Trinity director Harold Gordon said in a statement which released Air Canada from its exclusive investment deal with the company. Air Canada, it said, is now free to try to find another key equity investor.
Gordon said Air Canada's financial performance was "somewhat weaker" that Trinity Time had expected. "In particular, labour cost and productivity savings promised by Air Canada's unions under Air Canada's collective agreements are not being fully achieved," he said.
Trinity Time, owned by Victor Li, also blamed high fuel costs and said yields and margins "remain under pressure."
"Air Canada's earnings outlook is adverse to our expectations, reflecting among other things a more intense competitive environment generally and a higher level of domestic capacity and competition than expected."
But Trinity's Gordon left no doubt that he felt the biggest reason why Trinity Time was not prepared to invest its money at this time was the airline's labour situation.
He called this week's signing of a pension deal with the machinists union "a meaningful step" but said it wasn't enough.
"Regretfully, this step is not reflective of the positions taken by union leaders representing more than two-thirds of Air Canada's employees," Gordon said.
"We have concluded from this that without a change in the manner in which Air Canada's employees are organized and their interests represented, Air Canada will not likely achieve a sufficient fresh start to prosper and grow in the competitive environment which it faces after emerging from CCAA [creditor] protection."
The withdrawal of Trinity Time as the lead equity investor in Air Canada throws a wrench into the airline's plans to emerge from creditor protection. That protection expires April 15.
Air Canada filed for creditor protection April 1 last year.
Written by CBC News Online staff
I thought I heard on the CBC this am that the head of the machinists union had been 'removed' for negotiating the change to the pension without the authority to do so. Seems s/he may have been the only one to see the writing on the wall, and was cut short for actually reading it...
What a friggin' mess...
What a friggin' mess...
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
AC Alternative
AIR CANADA TO PURSUE ALTERNATIVES
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/arch ... c7699.html
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/arch ... c7699.html
AC Employee Briefing
This is Cut and Paste from AEF:
"We received a briefing at HQ late this afternoon about this. I can tell you that there were a lot of grim faces from the people that were delivering this message. The one thing that is going to be released yet is the year end losses. They will be staggering but not surprising as the company is taking the opportunity to book a lot of things that normally wouldn’t be so that it is included in the CCAA process. We were told that the losses and the withdrawl of TTI are not related to each other.
Here’s the reasons that we were given:
1. The absolute number one reason was that we (Air Canada) were not able to attain any sort of agreement with the unions. The whole debacle with the IAM was the driving force and the final nail in the coffin. We were led to believe that even if there was a common thread of an ongoing dialogue with the unions this may not have happened. The magnitude of the poor relations between management and the company was viewed as one that may not ever get repaired.
2. Fuel prices are putting increasing pressure on the financial outlook and there doesn’t seem to be an end in sight for the higher prices.
3. The amount of competition on the routes that provided good returns is ever increasing. Now one would normally expect this but given our tentative situation they felt it was not the right time to invest.
4. The amount of the proposed cost savings has not be attained particularly in a couple of union contracts. The implementation has been deferred or just plain ignored in some cases.
I supposed that I can’t blame TTI. They have very little invested in this and as a smart money manager they are looking at all aspects of the business and don’t see a huge upside at this point in time.
Our briefing lasted only about 15 minutes so there wasn’t a great deal of time for questions but we were able to glean that there really isn’t a backup plan at this time. It was the opinion of our senior director that if someone else was to come to the party they would undoubtedly take the attitude, “We have them over a barrel so let’s ask for even more than what TTI was”. Any smart investment company would do this.
The only thing that we have got going for us is that we are moving into the summer season and the bookings are apparently relatively good so the cash flow should be positive.
My only hope is that for all of those of you that sat out there and yelled “Full Pay Until the Last Day” that you really better think twice about doing it with the next guy because they will really come at us for concessions. "
"We received a briefing at HQ late this afternoon about this. I can tell you that there were a lot of grim faces from the people that were delivering this message. The one thing that is going to be released yet is the year end losses. They will be staggering but not surprising as the company is taking the opportunity to book a lot of things that normally wouldn’t be so that it is included in the CCAA process. We were told that the losses and the withdrawl of TTI are not related to each other.
Here’s the reasons that we were given:
1. The absolute number one reason was that we (Air Canada) were not able to attain any sort of agreement with the unions. The whole debacle with the IAM was the driving force and the final nail in the coffin. We were led to believe that even if there was a common thread of an ongoing dialogue with the unions this may not have happened. The magnitude of the poor relations between management and the company was viewed as one that may not ever get repaired.
2. Fuel prices are putting increasing pressure on the financial outlook and there doesn’t seem to be an end in sight for the higher prices.
3. The amount of competition on the routes that provided good returns is ever increasing. Now one would normally expect this but given our tentative situation they felt it was not the right time to invest.
4. The amount of the proposed cost savings has not be attained particularly in a couple of union contracts. The implementation has been deferred or just plain ignored in some cases.
I supposed that I can’t blame TTI. They have very little invested in this and as a smart money manager they are looking at all aspects of the business and don’t see a huge upside at this point in time.
Our briefing lasted only about 15 minutes so there wasn’t a great deal of time for questions but we were able to glean that there really isn’t a backup plan at this time. It was the opinion of our senior director that if someone else was to come to the party they would undoubtedly take the attitude, “We have them over a barrel so let’s ask for even more than what TTI was”. Any smart investment company would do this.
The only thing that we have got going for us is that we are moving into the summer season and the bookings are apparently relatively good so the cash flow should be positive.
My only hope is that for all of those of you that sat out there and yelled “Full Pay Until the Last Day” that you really better think twice about doing it with the next guy because they will really come at us for concessions. "
Best news I heard all day, no week, hell all year!! Screw em here's why
1. they pushed out Ward air and Canadian because government support supplied them with unlimited supply of funds. Not fair ..booooo
2. the stuardesses and check in chicks who have always found a way to get under my skin with their lack of respect for the customer.
3. pissed away millions of my tax dollars painting their new Zip planes pink and orange... double booooooo
4. fighting pearson airport for new births for planes that they didn't need
5. blaming every quarter loss on what ever was on the front page of the paper, Avian flu probably to blame on the latest 1.9 billion
6. 45 min wait to redeem my air-o-plan points on a flight 6 months from now and finding it's all booked up
need I go on? Good riddance!!
1. they pushed out Ward air and Canadian because government support supplied them with unlimited supply of funds. Not fair ..booooo
2. the stuardesses and check in chicks who have always found a way to get under my skin with their lack of respect for the customer.
3. pissed away millions of my tax dollars painting their new Zip planes pink and orange... double booooooo
4. fighting pearson airport for new births for planes that they didn't need
5. blaming every quarter loss on what ever was on the front page of the paper, Avian flu probably to blame on the latest 1.9 billion
6. 45 min wait to redeem my air-o-plan points on a flight 6 months from now and finding it's all booked up
need I go on? Good riddance!!
It's times like this I am glad that my airline (well I like to think of it as my airline) is doing so well. Yep the only person I have to answer to is myself. I just wish I paid myself better. Hmmm maybe I could go union, now there's the kiss of death! Can a private owner go union? Perhaps I could shut myself down because of the pension plan, or days off.... just thoughts. Geez I think I just might phone myself up and quit right now!
This situation is ridiculous. How is it that a union, or combination of unions, can topple at $12B a year company. I thought the idea of unions is to get as many members as possible to pay union dues to keep the whole mess going. Their actions here in AC's case don't seem very self serving.
AC's unions needs a wake-up call. They wan't get bailed out this time. The liberals would loose the next election if they did. I'm sure management at AC would like to make a deal and be done with this mess, but unfortunatley the unions have too much control. I think the era of the union is over. The sooner all parties realize this the better.
Last time I checked in this industry, having a job was a priviledge. I'd like to see what my employer would say if I walked up to him demanding higher wages, more days off, and someone to sling my luggage. Ha!
Survival of the fittest folks
SG
AC's unions needs a wake-up call. They wan't get bailed out this time. The liberals would loose the next election if they did. I'm sure management at AC would like to make a deal and be done with this mess, but unfortunatley the unions have too much control. I think the era of the union is over. The sooner all parties realize this the better.
Last time I checked in this industry, having a job was a priviledge. I'd like to see what my employer would say if I walked up to him demanding higher wages, more days off, and someone to sling my luggage. Ha!
Survival of the fittest folks
SG
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
Its true that the size and attitude of Air Canada's Unions have infact crippled the company. How can Air Canada compete with the LCC's when for example WestJet, JetsGo all employ contract bag handlers.. The cost to employ the unionized bag guys and gals cripples AC on revenue and thereby limits the true competition they can offer. (This is of course just one example)
Its just a shame that IF Air Canada closes its doors, we will all suffer. Short term there will be improvement in the job situation I am sure a bunch of companies will try to step up to the plate and fill the gap. However, we will be left with a number of diffrent companies that will eventually fold and or merge together creating yet again another job crisis for all involved.
Lets hope for the best.
Its just a shame that IF Air Canada closes its doors, we will all suffer. Short term there will be improvement in the job situation I am sure a bunch of companies will try to step up to the plate and fill the gap. However, we will be left with a number of diffrent companies that will eventually fold and or merge together creating yet again another job crisis for all involved.
Lets hope for the best.
Well, now that TTI is out - GECAS is going to be right behind them. I think Judge Farley's patients has run out as well. I'm sure the "L" word will be circulating a little more now.
How do you lose 1.9 billion dollars when you are under creditor protection??? Out of that you haven't even serviced any of your current debt!!?? I hate to say it but the sooner they go under, the sooner we can get the other airlines in this country organized to take the load.
I guess we have to wait for April 15 now. That could very well be a dark day.
How do you lose 1.9 billion dollars when you are under creditor protection??? Out of that you haven't even serviced any of your current debt!!?? I hate to say it but the sooner they go under, the sooner we can get the other airlines in this country organized to take the load.
I guess we have to wait for April 15 now. That could very well be a dark day.
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Cat Driver
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I never ever thought I would live to see the day that Air Canada would be in this position.
Even after all these years in this industry I really do not know what to think except that there may be a lot of people in this country in a very bad financial position and its always the front line grunts that really get hurt.
Cat
Even after all these years in this industry I really do not know what to think except that there may be a lot of people in this country in a very bad financial position and its always the front line grunts that really get hurt.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I would think that liquidation is probably the best bet at this time because any investor that might be interested now knows that AC are out of options when it comes to dealing. If the workers there thought Li was asking for too much just wait until someone else steps up to the plate. The unions were trying to call Li’s bluff but he called theirs! I would like to know how the members will feel about that when they cash the UI cheques.
"Gary Fane, a spokesman for the Canadian Auto Workers union - which has said it was prepared to see Trinity walk rather than accept pension concessions - said he doesn't think the airline will go out of business.
"It is Canada's flagship carrier and it serves Canadians well. So this will make things difficult, but it's not the end of the world," Fane said in an interview. "
So this is what the damn CAW is up to ..they are playing the government step in card if I read into this correctly. I say hell no let it die, no more taxpayers money into this wounded horse. The CAW is all about greed I know I was a member of those arseholes years back.
"Gary Fane, a spokesman for the Canadian Auto Workers union - which has said it was prepared to see Trinity walk rather than accept pension concessions - said he doesn't think the airline will go out of business.
"It is Canada's flagship carrier and it serves Canadians well. So this will make things difficult, but it's not the end of the world," Fane said in an interview. "
So this is what the damn CAW is up to ..they are playing the government step in card if I read into this correctly. I say hell no let it die, no more taxpayers money into this wounded horse. The CAW is all about greed I know I was a member of those arseholes years back.
And the downward pressure on wages for the res of us will be increased. Jetsgo will be able to continue asking for money to work there for quite a while.N2 wrote:I'd hate to say but if AC does go belly up those flying for them will be taking jobs at a substantial decrease in pay. That’s if there are jobs to be had for all which I doubt.
As much as the corporation that is AC ticks me off, seeing them go the way of the Dodo, for the sake of friends that work there, is not very pleasant.
RB I hate to see them go under too for the reasons you state but enough is enough. The unions have to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late...if it already isn't. I say getting rid of the unions would be the best thing AC could do at this time. Put a profit sharing plan into effect to motivate the workers into performing at peek efficiency and customer service levels. Big fat pensions along with all the other perks are just not reality anymore like it or not! I know it was a happy day for me when I told the CAW to go rub salt.
If Westjet is suddenly in a position to take up a lot of slack, will they start hiring the AC crew?
Wonder who's just waiting in the wings to step into the gap, obviously there will be room for either another carrier or for Canjet, Jetsgo, and Westjet to expand a drastic amount. This should be interesting and devastating at the same time.
Wonder who's just waiting in the wings to step into the gap, obviously there will be room for either another carrier or for Canjet, Jetsgo, and Westjet to expand a drastic amount. This should be interesting and devastating at the same time.
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gonnabeapilot
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While I agree that given time, some of Canada's other airlines will be able to pick up the slack my question is do you really want them to? At present Air Canada offers a lot better product than competitors flying transborder and international routes. Sorry but you'd have to pay me some pretty good money before I'd volunteer to suffer through the 'service' offered on Air Transat, HMY, Zoom and the like. I don't quite understand why people are cheering for the demise of a carrier whose death will leave them with no other option other than being crammed into a charter cabin with 28" seat pitch. Or perhaps you enjoy paying $5 for a headset to watch the IFE and paying for booze and food? Thanks but no thanks. Here's hoping that Air Canada can pull out of the tailspin, or at least hold off long enough until its competitors have followed Westjet's lead and upped their cabin service to a world class level.
You're dreaming in technicolour if you think Scare Canada's going away. Keep in mind the following:
1) It's an election year. Paul Martin has even started running ads.
2) The liberals know they need Quebec to win. They can't count on many votes west of yqt.
3) The liberals know Scare Canada is very, very big in Quebec.
Summary: The Liberals are certain to purchase another election victory using the taxpayer's own money.
1) It's an election year. Paul Martin has even started running ads.
2) The liberals know they need Quebec to win. They can't count on many votes west of yqt.
3) The liberals know Scare Canada is very, very big in Quebec.
Summary: The Liberals are certain to purchase another election victory using the taxpayer's own money.
