ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

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FL-510
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ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by FL-510 »

What do you guys think?
Working conditions in the states have improved a lot since they have made this a requirement!
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lazyeight
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by lazyeight »

Most if not all regionals pretty much require this to be hired anyways. Or at least very close, A's written etc.

Personally, I think you're missing out on a lot by not flying 703 or 704 first.. getting a left seat job etc. You learn a lot about aviation and yourself as a pilot in those years.
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FL-510
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by FL-510 »

I am on the same page! Guys getting on with jazz at 200 hours grinds my gears a little bit I must say....
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DrSpaceman
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by DrSpaceman »

this isn't as much an issue here as it is abroad, I'm on board but this rule should be international.
No one in a transport category plane cockpit under 1500h (no sim time comped towards total)
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ajet32
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by ajet32 »

I'm afraid that would shut down most asian carriers ASAP. Whether the board members like it or not, the average FO at say Garuda Indonesia, Air Asia, Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways has 180-220 hour total time when they start their line training in a B737NG, A320 or CRJ100. That is life in Asia and Europe as well. I spent 3 years line training cadets and most started with the 180 to 220 a few well a lot got their multi IFR in the sim along with their type rating. Some of the europeans with their frozen ATPL's are quite the joy to be around.
Interesting time ahead I would say.
While I myself went up the old fashioned route, floats, Navajo, Jetstream Dash 8 even some instructing, they are making Captains and some of pretty good ones out of guys/gals who have never flown single pilot IFR or single pilot in anything bigger than a C172 or Diamond single.
The big question is what happens if they have to go outside the box someday.
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by Cessna 180 »

I guess Sunwing and Jazz would have to layoff some pilots....
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cdnpilot77
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by cdnpilot77 »

FL-510 wrote: Working conditions in the states have improved a lot since they have made this a requirement!
First year salaries have been augmented by signing bonuses no doubt, they certainly can't go less until someone offers to sit right seat "for the experience" or the EagleJet type scams, but there is still a base salary to return too in year 2. That still keeps you below the poverty line ($20-24k) to fly large machines full of people into major centres and forced to domicile in the extremely cheap locales such as New York City, Ft. lauderdale, Washington DC, Atlanta, etc etc. It's all smoke and mirrors...so far. IMHO of course.
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FL-510
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by FL-510 »

cdnpilot77 wrote:
FL-510 wrote: Working conditions in the states have improved a lot since they have made this a requirement!
I met a guy on the RJ in sim training. He was working for a regional airlines, a delta feeder.....
making 37 k per year base pay, works as much overtime as he can legally plus perdiems, had a 15k signing bonus....
Anyways, first year he will make 55K without perdiemds as an FO.....
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MIQ
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by MIQ »

How are all the pilots in Europe supposed to get 1500 hours first without flying for an airline? I've never heard of a guy in France move 'up north' to get PIC time on a float plane. I guess we could send them all to Canada to take time building jobs here. I'd suggest starting as a rampie in Yellowknife for the first two years would be a good idea. That will teach them the fundamentals for airline flying.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by cdnpilot77 »

FL-510 wrote:
cdnpilot77 wrote:
FL-510 wrote: Working conditions in the states have improved a lot since they have made this a requirement!
I met a guy on the RJ in sim training. He was working for a regional airlines, a delta feeder.....
making 37 k per year base pay, works as much overtime as he can legally plus perdiems, had a 15k signing bonus....
Anyways, first year he will make 55K without perdiemds as an FO.....
To be honest, I don't believe that. Even if it's close to being true, it's definitely not the norm. In fact there are many regional carriers whose captain salaries are in that neighbourhood.
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Ypilot
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by Ypilot »

cdnpilot77 wrote:
FL-510 wrote: Working conditions in the states have improved a lot since they have made this a requirement!
First year salaries have been augmented by signing bonuses no doubt, they certainly can't go less until someone offers to sit right seat "for the experience" or the EagleJet type scams, but there is still a base salary to return too in year 2. That still keeps you below the poverty line ($20-24k) to fly large machines full of people into major centres and forced to domicile in the extremely cheap locales such as New York City, Ft. lauderdale, Washington DC, Atlanta, etc etc. It's all smoke and mirrors...so far. IMHO of course.

http://www.envoyair.com/2016/09/14/now- ... ew-pilots/

58000$ / year. Looks like it is getting better.
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cdnpilot77
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by cdnpilot77 »

Ypilot wrote:
cdnpilot77 wrote:
FL-510 wrote: Working conditions in the states have improved a lot since they have made this a requirement!
First year salaries have been augmented by signing bonuses no doubt, they certainly can't go less until someone offers to sit right seat "for the experience" or the EagleJet type scams, but there is still a base salary to return too in year 2. That still keeps you below the poverty line ($20-24k) to fly large machines full of people into major centres and forced to domicile in the extremely cheap locales such as New York City, Ft. lauderdale, Washington DC, Atlanta, etc etc. It's all smoke and mirrors...so far. IMHO of course.

http://www.envoyair.com/2016/09/14/now- ... ew-pilots/

58000$ / year. Looks like it is getting better.
Yes getting better, but still not there...read the whole quote
Envoy will increase starting pay for new hire pilots from $25.84 to $37.90, effectively beginning our new hires at Step 3 of the existing pilot pay scale. Combined with an up to $20,000 signing bonus and a $20,000 First Officer retention bonus paid following one year of service, Envoy First Officers’ earning potential ranks at the top of the industry.
That $20k bonus is year 1 only, so you will make UP TO $58k for the first year, but year 2 there is no retention bonus, so back you go to $35k. But the key here is also, what's step 3? I'm assuming that's after all training and line indoc. So what's your pay until then for the first couple of months?

Still better than most, I will agree, but that's just one...and the very pinnacle of regional pay in the USA. check out Silver or Republic and see how the numbers stack up at the s&@t end of the scale.
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Ypilot
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by Ypilot »

....Combined with an up to $20,000 signing bonus and a $20,000 First Officer retention bonus paid following one year of service....

So you get 20000$ the first and the second year. :D
It would be interesting to see what is the 5th year pay scale. But it is definitely getting better. Hopefully the rest of the industry will follow.
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Ypilot
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by Ypilot »

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... l-airlines

Verdict? It is in the right direction for our friends down south.
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JBI
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by JBI »

I fly in Canada but live in the states so I've been following what's going on down here. Aero Crew News puts out a monthly publication that lists all the US airlines' pay and working conditions. The Airline Pilot Central Forums also provides a pretty good idea of the state of the regional industry in the US which is improving exponentially by the month.

Endeavor is currently the highest paying regional that I know of (partially because they have a tough time filling their NYC bases). First year FO pay on the RJ is now $60,000 after the training bonus, the retention bonus and new pay scales. The 'catch', which is not hidden, is that currently, the $23,000 a year retention bonuses only run until 2019 and there's no guarantee that they will continue after this time. And you also, eventually, get a guaranteed interview with Delta.

Republic actually has pretty good pay too. The interesting thing that they are doing right now is paying for the last 100 hours of candidates to get them up over the 1500 hours TT.

From what I can tell, things are definitely not perfect. But in the US, the pilot shortage at the regionals is very real and the pay is finally starting to reflect that.

The 1500 hour rule is definitely part of the cause, but definitely not the only reason. Pay at the regionals was so bad for so long that the supply of new pilots dropped dramatically.
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McKinley
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by McKinley »

I was taking some college courses outside the industry for a bit at my 705 job and I also have a wife in school as well and a family. I intended to wait until I was close to an upgrade before doing the ATPL exams. In the meantime, I was flying around with an IATRA and a few thousand hours . Does this make me less of a pilot? Or less safe?

Having done both exams .. I don't seee how knowing about various obsolete nav methods ( LORAN, RHO, trackline computers, cars gobbely gook, the effects of .004 inches of frost on an aircraft, using a dozen performance graphs I haven't looked at in the years since my ATPL, how to Cross the Atlantic to name a few things furthered my career..

Is a small fraction of the material applicable? Yes, but I found the majority of it got brain dumped post exam.. and I haven't used it in the years since.. Or was HIGHLY useless..

Furthermore, from my experience the TC written exams don't test your knowledge .. they test your ability to decode their weird and wordy questions..

I see the point with the hour requirements but the exams .. c'mon..

Tell you what HAS FURTHERED MY CAREER/ knowledge :

Looking through the AFM/ ODM
Performance handbooks
COM
SOP
Some AIM material


Just my two cents worth..
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DrSpaceman
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by DrSpaceman »

The atpl requirements were never about exams, those are just a formality. The point is entirely about the hours and experience. If it were up to me I'd also go a step further and require a lot more multi time and at least 250h of 2 multi crew. This is a licence that enables you to fly as pic on a transport category airplane, never understood why a flight instructor with 1500h of single engine time could get one.
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McKinley
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by McKinley »

It is about the exam.. more companies are asking for the exams to be completed.

In my mind, if the person has the hours / two crew time there should be no issue.
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by DrSpaceman »

Companies demand exams because it is a legal requirement to fly their aircrafts. Not because it makes them better pilots.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by Black_Tusk »

I'd say if one can not at least manage to at least pass your A's you're going to have trouble with initial groundschool. It's not exactly a walk in the park.
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by dhc# »

Ypilot wrote:http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... l-airlines

Verdict? It is in the right direction for our friends down south.
Pilot salaries in Canada have not budged in years, let alone retention bonuses = No pilot shortage in Canada
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

6 years later. Still little change. Really sad to reflect on this.
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

cdnpilot77 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:20 pm
FL-510 wrote: Working conditions in the states have improved a lot since they have made this a requirement!
First year salaries have been augmented by signing bonuses no doubt, they certainly can't go less until someone offers to sit right seat "for the experience" or the EagleJet type scams, but there is still a base salary to return too in year 2. That still keeps you below the poverty line ($20-24k) to fly large machines full of people into major centres and forced to domicile in the extremely cheap locales such as New York City, Ft. lauderdale, Washington DC, Atlanta, etc etc. It's all smoke and mirrors...so far. IMHO of course.
A lot of the salarues have improved dramatically, not to mention the bonus cover you for the first 4 years until you flow.
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bobcaygeon
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by bobcaygeon »

Seems to have changed. Mesa was a bottom feeder.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mesa-ai ... age-2022-8
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Re: ATPL for co-pilots on a 705 Aircraft

Post by daedalusx »

:lol: :lol:

Most American regionals pay better than AC (flat pay) and WJ and have a flow to the majors were the pay is also much better than AC (post flat pay) and WJ.

The day that Pasco, Jazz and WJE can’t fill seats due to the lack of ATPL holders is the day that salaries are going to go up EVERYWHERE from 703-705. It’s basic offer/demand people. But keep open border immigrations and 250hrs requirements and then wonder how come Canada has the least paid pilots in the world.
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