flight simming during PPL studying/training

geneticistx · Post by **geneticistx** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:47 am

Hi,
One of the reasons I got motivated to take my PPL was that I did flight simming for so many years, and I finally make enough money that taking my PPL is something I can do.

When I used to flight sim, I used to use VATSIM and i would use only jets (737/747/ERJ), and rarely did I use a cessna.

My question is, how useful is flight simming during PPL training, say using X-PLane?

Thanks

Big Pistons Forever · Post by **Big Pistons Forever** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:39 am

Personally I highly discourage new private pilot students from using any of the home sim programs. The primary reference point for a pilot flying a new airplane is the view of the natural horizon as seen out the windshield.

All of the foundation flying skills are based on that, not on looking at the instruments. The problem I have found with private pilot students using the flight sim programs is that they tens to fly by reference to the instruments which is big time negative learning. I also found that the flight models are not close enough to the real airplane so that again negative aircraft handling habits are picked up.

However the biggest problem is you are in effect learning how to fly without an instructor, so bad habits are not recognized and corrected and all sorts of weird ideas about how to do things get picked up, which your poor instructor has to now beat out of you.

For more advanced training, especially training for the instrument rating these programs have real value, but leave the computer off until you get your private pilot license

geneticistx · Post by **geneticistx** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:45 am

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Personally I highly discourage new private pilot students from using any of the home sim programs. The primary reference point for a pilot flying a new airplane is the view of the natural horizon as seen out the windshield.

All of the foundation flying skills are based on that, not on looking at the instruments. The problem I have found with private pilot students using the flight sim programs is that they tens to fly by reference to the instruments which is big time negative learning. I also found that the flight models are not close enough to the real airplane so that again negative aircraft handling habits are picked up.

However the biggest problem is you are in effect learning how to fly without an instructor, so bad habits are not recognized and corrected and all sorts of weird ideas about how to do things get picked up, which your poor instructor has to now beat out of you.

For more advanced training, especially training for the instrument rating these programs have real value, but leave the computer off until you get your private pilot license

Excellent perspective.

Thanks!

M

Yarp · Post by **Yarp** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:48 pm

While I agree for actual basic aircraft flight maneuvers a sim will give you bad habits that will need to be "unlearned" as you get a feel for the aircraft, I wouldn't dismiss sims such as X-Plane outright.
Where I find sims to be very useful to PPL students as procedure trainers. Print out your pre-flight, cross country navigation and post-flight checklists and use X-Plane (select your training aircraft type) and run through everything as if you were really going flying. It is and excellent way to really hammer in all procedural elements such as instrument checks during taxing (HI, T&B, AI etc.) as well as your emergency procedures on takeoff.
I have also found that the scenery fidelity of X-Plane to be of sufficient quality to also allow you to practice all the procedures associated with cross-country navigation, including diversions. Lakes and towns are quite visible in X-Plane so that you can fly to your set-heading-point, run through your pre SHP checklist, then when you are near your SHP, run through your XC nav checklist (Time-Turn-Track-etc..etc.) The sim will allow you to practice all your cross-country procedures without burning a lot of dead dinosaurs or your instructor's time. Just make sure that you plan out your XC sim flight using the same XC planning sheets as your would do for a standard (real) XC training flight. Oh, and that includes using your kneepad while sitting at the computer. You can even have some fun with random diversions, again because it will give you practice using the diversion procedures.
Like all things simlulated, they can't do/teach it all but they can certainly help when used appropriately. Have fun getting your procedures down pat.

xysn · Post by **xysn** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:53 pm

During my PPL I found a home simulator useful for practising the procedures of forced approaches. (e.g. panel checks, emergency calls, etc)

Gannet167 · Post by **Gannet167** » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:39 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Personally I highly discourage new private pilot students from using any of the home sim programs. The primary reference point for a pilot flying a new airplane is the view of the natural horizon as seen out the windshield.

All of the foundation flying skills are based on that, not on looking at the instruments. The problem I have found with private pilot students using the flight sim programs is that they tens to fly by reference to the instruments which is big time negative learning. I also found that the flight models are not close enough to the real airplane so that again negative aircraft handling habits are picked up.

However the biggest problem is you are in effect learning how to fly without an instructor, so bad habits are not recognized and corrected and all sorts of weird ideas about how to do things get picked up, which your poor instructor has to now beat out of you.

For more advanced training, especially training for the instrument rating these programs have real value, but leave the computer off until you get your private pilot license

I completely agree. Although these video games may be fun to play, they are not a substitute for real training and do develop bad habits. I myself flew a bunch of flight simulator early in my training, thinking it would help. It was a fun past-time and somewhat interesting to play with. I'd have been better to buy an Xbox and play a first person shooter. The flight sim induced negative habits that were not helpful in the actual plane.

While practicing procedures and radio calls is an important investment in getting good value out of every second in the real airplane, you can practice them completely on your own, on the couch, with your eyes closed or in front of a cockpit poster and it will be better training than using your mouse to click on switches in the cockpit. A Cessna is so easy to memorize the checks/emergency procedures for, you should be doing it while juggling tennis balls. That is 100% better value training than anything a desktop computer flight simulator can provide.

zealer · Post by **zealer** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:47 am

I played with Microsoft Flight Simulator X while doing PPL. I even bought a yoke with throttle quadrant and the rudder pedals. I would hook my computer up to my TV to have a larger screen. It was fun to mess around in the sim. I treated it as a game, but it can definitely be beneficial. I would often learn an exercise in the air and then later see if I could replicate it on the computer. I also liked to look at the maneuvers from an outside perspective (ex: if you spin the plane in FS X, use the spot camera instead of the cockpit camera).

Not a primary learning tool, but it's definitely a secondary fun tool.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:22 pm

If a PPL student of mine wanted to use a flight sim as part of their training program I would not continue to train him/her.

JungianJugular · Post by **JungianJugular** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:48 pm

Great for IFR stuff and simulated emergencies/procedures. You won't lose anything by using it to supplement your training as an experiential learning tool.

PilotDAR · Post by **PilotDAR** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:13 am

I entirely support what BPF stated earlier.

On that same theme, considering sims a tool for practicing procedures is still a potential negative to you proper learning - it's not so much that choice of tool for learning (real airplane vs sim), but the supervision and teaching. If you are practicing procedures alone on your sim, you could be practicing it all wrong, and teaching yourself poor habits - just as you could with unsupervised solo in a plane. If you and your instructor had no access to a plane, your instructor could still use a sim to teach you some of the PPL material - not because the sim was good, but simply because the training had a tool, and was supervised. Priot to sims, we actually had really nice full scale posters positioned around a chair. those worked well for procedures training to a certain point. The only electrical technology was the lights for the room!

If you want to make good use of the non flying time available to you, forget the sim, and read some of the very many excellent books on flying. Those will prime your mind with curiosity to understand more during your next lesson....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:36 am

Flying an airplane is more than a picture on a screen.

A very important part of learning to fly is feeling the changes in attitudes, changes of G loading, sound changes and the sound of the engine as you fly.

Flight sims can not give you these very important sensations thus using a sim is counter productive in learning to fly.

geneticistx · Post by **geneticistx** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:50 pm

i was really thinking of using it for practising start-up procedures, that's about it.

PilotDAR · Post by **PilotDAR** » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:24 pm

i was really thinking of using it for practising start-up procedures

Extra good reason to not use a computer sim then. There are a lot of sensations during a normal and abnormal start. You want all your senses getting practiced with what is normal, and abnormal. There are variations of mixture, and engine firing/acceleration, which I doubt a computer can model as well as a real plane. Don't learn it wrong.

The other flaw about computer [games] is the no consequences aspect. Don't regard starting as a risk free activity. Starting a real plane will remind you that you're spending money, and taking a risk. Though most starts go just fine, there are exceptions you need to be aware of. The computer is not going to suddenly give you the smell of fire, to tell you that you've flooded it, and now have a carburettor fire - whatcha going to do now? 'Cause you've got a couple of seconds to decide. Keeping cranking to get an obstinate engine running? Some engines have maximum recommended starter cycles (some Continental 520's are 30 seconds cranking, 5 minutes waiting, and for turbines I've seen longer than that).

Save the computer for your word processing and surfing, and learn piloting from authoritative publications, as so many of us managed long before there were computers as we know them now....

geneticistx · Post by **geneticistx** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:28 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
i was really thinking of using it for practising start-up procedures
Extra good reason to not use a computer sim then. There are a lot of sensations during a normal and abnormal start. You want all your senses getting practiced with what is normal, and abnormal. There are variations of mixture, and engine firing/acceleration, which I doubt a computer can model as well as a real plane. Don't learn it wrong.

The other flaw about computer [games] is the no consequences aspect. Don't regard starting as a risk free activity. Starting a real plane will remind you that you're spending money, and taking a risk. Though most starts go just fine, there are exceptions you need to be aware of. The computer is not going to suddenly give you the smell of fire, to tell you that you've flooded it, and now have a carburettor fire - whatcha going to do now? 'Cause you've got a couple of seconds to decide. Keeping cranking to get an obstinate engine running? Some engines have maximum recommended starter cycles (some Continental 520's are 30 seconds cranking, 5 minutes waiting, and for turbines I've seen longer than that).

Save the computer for your word processing and surfing, and learn piloting from authoritative publications, as so many of us managed long before there were computers as we know them now....

I see your point. I'll just keep using my computer for work and poking my nose into this forum

photofly · Post by **photofly** » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:44 pm

If it's any consolation, i'm hopeless with MS flight sim - I can never find the airport again after taking off to fly a circuit, and I invariably crash trying to land. Not things I've so far managed with a real airplane. This leads me to conclude that the skills are somewhat different in each case.

rentdressyk · Post by **rentdressyk** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:26 pm

hey guys,
just wondering is flight training is tax deductible? Im praying it is because the tax man is gna go to town on me if its not...

cheers

YQkC · Post by **YQkC** » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:34 pm

Once you do your CPL you can claim your PPL.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:32 am

I have no thoughts on the positive or negative aspects, but I think I would respect the advice of some of the knowledgable posters here.

As an aside, Redbird has been really pushing using their sim for ppl training, and when I asked them about stats, they had none...they just thought it was a good idea...and increased both their product use as well as FTU.s bottom line. They had nothing to demonstrate that it resulted in fewer flight(or more) hours, lower costs, or better flight test results.

And I have had some close friends kids who went to take flight training and did their first two lessons on a sim...from what I could see, a total waste of time and money. But that is a small sample to judge.

I would really like to see some stats on whether such things help or not rather than the ancedotal posts of ppl students who used it and self evaluated its merits.

Until then future aviators, some wise people have given you advice, even if it not what you want to hear.

Some of the US flight schools really seem to push sim use.....for bad weather days. Seems to kerp their instructors busy.

AirFrame · Post by **AirFrame** » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:13 am

Allow me to offer another perspective...

With enough money, anything can become realistic. I recently worked for a company that made control loading flight yokes. One of the principals of the company had an Oculus Rift that he brought in for us to use as well. Let me tell you... Wearing the Rift and flying with the control loading yoke was as close as i've been to feeling like I was in a real plane when flying a home sim. It was *better* than the room-sized, wraparound-screen sim at my local flight school.

On a good flight simulator like P3D or X-Plane, that have excellent physics engines, the aerodynamic performance of the aircraft is quite realistic... Removed from the G-forces, it allows you to see what things look like, and how the airplane behaves. For example, you can do a multi-turn spin, watch from both inside and outside the airplane, and see things like the axis of the spin starting off away from vertical, and falling to the vertical after a turn or two. You can force the plane into a flatter spin, and see the increase in angular rotation. You can try different recovery techniques. All very theoretical, yes... But no different than reading a book about different recovery techniques. It puts theories in your head, then you go off and try them with your instructor and see what really works.

I question whether the luddites suggesting they "would never teach someone who wanted to do some training on a home sim" really have tried any of the most modern home systems. It's not uncommon for people to have powerful gaming computers with three-monitor surround setups. Lots of people have Rifts, too. I wouldn't recommend using a sim to *replace* anything I was doing in a real airplane, but I would recommend one to review what i'd learned on previous flights, and run through procedures related to future flights. With the knowledge of my instructor.

Others have pointed out that you can develop bad habits if you aren't supervised. That's why students are never sent solo, right?

Solo work on a SIM shouldn't be any different. Review what you're going to do with your instructor. Go home and do it. Discuss how it went when you arrive for your next lesson IRL. Heck, offer to make dinner for your (probably starving) instructor and invite him home to show him your system.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:22 pm

I question whether the luddites suggesting they "would never teach someone who wanted to do some training on a home sim" really have tried any of the most modern home systems. It's not uncommon for people to have powerful gaming computers with three-monitor surround setups. Lots of people have Rifts, too. I wouldn't recommend using a sim to *replace* anything I was doing in a real airplane, but I would recommend one to review what i'd learned on previous flights, and run through procedures related to future flights.

I have to wonder why anyone would call someone a luddite just because they offer a different opinion.

Lots of the posters here have a bit more experience than one person relating their experience and generalizing it.
If I was to go with the advice offered I would pay attention to experience with a number of students before an individual who has much more limited experience.

Personally I have no opinion other than when I have watched pilots on sims there seems to be more playing with dream airplanes (fighters, airliners) than trying to master basic flight techniques...if that is even possible at the ppl, stage

AuxBatOn · Post by **AuxBatOn** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:17 pm

I used sims as procedure trainers (checklist under time constraint for example) a bunch and it paid off. I also used sims for IFR training (purely for procedures, again under time comstraint. I would set the simulation speed to 2x to impose more time pressure).

Lastly, I used it to do a quick recon of a navigation route from the expected cruise altitude. MS Flight Sime was then good enough to give me a good idea of the large features I was going to encounter. Nowadays, you could have a better idea with Google Earth.

Depending how it is used, home sims can be useful.

Having said that, I would not train for actual aircraft handling on those sims.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:23 pm

Using sims for advanced training is another issue, and I could not agree more.
Even the home sims, if not treated like a game have some excellent benefits for IF prodeures, route and airport familiarization...
And , of course, commercial sims for aircraft type training.

But I think the topic was ppl/ flight sim at home.

I have never seen any stats that would support its use, and the two general perspectives are seasoned instructors who have some experience observing its effect on a number of students and advising against it. And some former or current ppl students who have offered their experience, and seem to be in favour of it, but with qualification in some cases as to the requirement for more than basic flight sim, or a restriction on its application.

if I was starting out as a student pilot I think I would defer to the experienced instructors based on the assumption they have seen its effects on more than themselves, and are in a position to maybe better objectively assess the results.
Are those good assumptions? Maybe.
The difficulty of social media and objectivity

AirFrame · Post by **AirFrame** » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:37 pm

trey kule wrote:I have to wonder why anyone would call someone a luddite just because they offer a different opinion.

I was responding specifically to this post:

If a PPL student of mine wanted to use a flight sim as part of their training program I would not continue to train him/her.

Absolute, not open for discussion, and with no reasoning. The only thing I could think of, was that the person doesn't know what modern sims can do, or doesn't want a home sim to take away from revenue-generating time for him at the airport.

Since there are things you can learn from a sim without being in an airplane, a much better response would be: "Really? Let's discuss why you think it would be a good idea, and what you might get out of it, and where I might caution you as to how it could be beneficial to your training in some areas, *and* detrimental to your training in others..."

Personally I have no opinion other than when I have watched pilots on sims there seems to be more playing with dream airplanes (fighters, airliners) than trying to master basic flight techniques...if that is even possible at the ppl, stage

The beauty of the sim is that you can change from a Cessna 172 to an airliner or fighter if that floats your boat. I used a flight sim to learn what an ILS does.

photofly · Post by **photofly** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:07 am

AirFrame wrote:
trey kule wrote:I have to wonder why anyone would call someone a luddite just because they offer a different opinion.
I was responding specifically to this post:

If a PPL student of mine wanted to use a flight sim as part of their training program I would not continue to train him/her.
Absolute, not open for discussion, and with no reasoning. The only thing I could think of, was that the person doesn't know what modern sims can do, or doesn't want a home sim to take away from revenue-generating time for him at the airport.

The person who wrote that also developed training programs for Airbus, no doubt making use of simulators, and could appropriately be described as many things but probably not a luddite. Also I'm confident he's more concerned with the quality of the pilot turned out by his training than charging more hours.

Like Trey Kool I'd love to see some evidence about whether simulator use shortens or lengthens PPL training time.I don't think it's any bloody use at all in the initial stages, but that's mostly from anecdotal evidence. I can say I wouldn't bother learning to juggle by using a juggling simulator on my computer nor would a PC-based bicycle simulator be much use for learning to ride a bicycle. Even with "force-feedback" pedals.

For example, you can do a multi-turn spin, watch from both inside and outside the airplane, and see things like the axis of the spin starting off away from vertical, and falling to the vertical after a turn or two. You can force the plane into a flatter spin, and see the increase in angular rotation.

As a ground school teaching aid, you may have a point. The assumption is that the original question was about using a simulator to replace part of the in-aircraft teaching.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:59 pm

Learning to fly sitting in a chair looking at a simulator screen is detrimental to learning to fly because the inner ear is a very important part of the learning process.

Therefore I personally would not allow a PPL student to use flight sim during the PPL course.

Note:

The above is only the opinion of a Luddite.