With the way things are going in the states with salaries going way up, do you think canada should have a 1500hr rule to get to the regionals?

Pt6-42 wrote:With the way things are going in the states with salaries going way up, do you think canada should have a 1500hr rule to get to the regionals?

No until I get there, and then yes definitely.

I think one should need an ATPL to fly 705, no matter which seat. Airline operation = airline license. I guess that implies 1500 hour minimum.

As a passanger who flies all over the world and an amateur pilot it greatly worries me when the fo has less time than me. So yes!

goingnowherefast wrote:I think one should need an ATPL to fly 705, no matter which seat. Airline operation = airline license. I guess that implies 1500 hour minimum.

Exactly.

goingnowherefast wrote:I think one should need an ATPL to fly 705, no matter which seat. Airline operation = airline license. I guess that implies 1500 hour minimum.

I concur. But wouldn't restrict it to 705, 704 could use some experienced FOs too. But I guess that's what contrail requirements are for.
Also surprising to see the experience levels north of 60, that are in command of two crew turbo prop and jet aircraft, mind boggling actually.

Anything that causes an upward trend on wages is good.

Typical Canadian and North American response: the 1500 hours for a job. Ridiculous. As a Canadian having lived overseas most of my life...I despise this and it Irritates me so much to hear about a 1500 hour rule. Reality Check...the only countries that are sustaining this despicable regulation are the US and Canada. In the recent years...because of this STUPID rule...the US as shot itself in the foot as the reality of pilot shortages is starting to be felt. The rapid expansions have led to multiple routes cuts and route cancelations from various carriers ranging from Regionals to start with...to some major airlines not having enough pilots.

Canada is getting there and we are starting to feel the effects more and more as we progress. Air Canada having expansion plans for 150+ planes and the agreement with its Regional carriers...there will be constant hiring for the next 5 years at least. And this is not including retirement attrition. Effets? most smaller companies have considerably lowered there hours...including regionals such as Jazz, Porter and now recently Encore with its ''flightpath'' program.

Everywhere else in the world pilots are taken straight from Flight School. And yes...Including Europe in most cases. So, bottom line: 1500 rules is stupid, ridiculous to us and people abroad, it slows down and complicates operations, its stupid, its idiotic, its useless.......etc.

And for haters...regional aircraft such as the Q400/ATR/CRJ etc are WAY easier to fly than a King Air/Metro/Navajo etc etc. And people all over the world except Canada and the US go straight from flying Katanas, C172, Cirrus from their flight training unit to these Regional Aircraft. So the crap about experience is total B*****. Thank you and happy new year

Have you ever tried to train a 200hr pilot into a Multi-engine IFR FO position? Have you ever tried to train a 1500hr into the same position? Guess which pilot takes the training better, does better overall and makes a better line pilot?

Put that brand new 200hr pilot into a 9 seat King Air, not a 78 seat Q400. Exposing the risk to fewer people.

Sky_Conqueror wrote:Typical Canadian and North American response: the 1500 hours for a job. Ridiculous. As a Canadian having lived overseas most of my life...I despise this and it Irritates me so much to hear about a 1500 hour rule. Reality Check...the only countries that are sustaining this despicable regulation are the US and Canada. In the recent years...because of this STUPID rule...the US as shot itself in the foot as the reality of pilot shortages is starting to be felt. The rapid expansions have led to multiple routes cuts and route cancelations from various carriers ranging from Regionals to start with...to some major airlines not having enough pilots.

Canada is getting there and we are starting to feel the effects more and more as we progress. Air Canada having expansion plans for 150+ planes and the agreement with its Regional carriers...there will be constant hiring for the next 5 years at least. And this is not including retirement attrition. Effets? most smaller companies have considerably lowered there hours...including regionals such as Jazz, Porter and now recently Encore with its ''flightpath'' program.

Everywhere else in the world pilots are taken straight from Flight School. And yes...Including Europe in most cases. So, bottom line: 1500 rules is stupid, ridiculous to us and people abroad, it slows down and complicates operations, its stupid, its idiotic, its useless.......etc.

And for haters...regional aircraft such as the Q400/ATR/CRJ etc are WAY easier to fly than a King Air/Metro/Navajo etc etc. And people all over the world except Canada and the US go straight from flying Katanas, C172, Cirrus from their flight training unit to these Regional Aircraft. So the crap about experience is total B*****. Thank you and happy new year

When you are flying a 705 machine there should be no 200hr guys as fo's. Thats no place for a rookie.

It's also standard in Europe to buy your own type rating. You said it yourself. This rule in the States is creating a pilot shortage. Wages go up during a pilot shortage as evidenced what's happening south of the border. I'm not doubting a 200hr wonder can fly an Airbus. But I don't want to be in the back either.

Sky_Conqueror wrote:Everywhere else in the world pilots are taken straight from Flight School. And yes...Including Europe in most cases. So, bottom line: 1500 rules is stupid, ridiculous to us and people abroad, it slows down and complicates operations, its stupid, its idiotic, its useless.......etc.

Do you know why I feel more comfortable flying with Air Canada and WestJet more than almost any other airline on the planet? Because when the shit hits the fan, their drivers know how to fly an airplane. They know this because of the experience they've acquired flying prior to being put in a large fully automated aircraft. Air France 441, Air Asia 8501 and Colgan Air 3407 are all prime examples of not enough relevant experience flying aircraft. None of those should have happened, and wouldn't have happened if the pilots knew how to recover from a stall. You say a Dash-8 is easy to fly? Maybe, in the right conditions, but when the red lights start to blink and you need to make the decisions, I can guarantee you will be more busy in a DH8 than a BE20.

1500hrs is not a lot of time, that's enough time to think you're the best but not enough time to realize that you're still learning. It took me about 18 months to get to 1500 hours of PIC time, that's not a long time. It sickens me this new generation of people who demand everything instantaneously.

The wonderful thing about the internet: it does not forget.

Sky_Conqueror wrote:I had to leave the country to get more respectable jobs! I now am in South East Asia flying the A320 right seat. NEVER would I have had an offer such as this with our stupid idiotic mentality we have in Canada with the hours I had 2 years ago. Never! I make more than anyone would ever make at the level I am at. I got that position with less than 500 hours at the time, making 85 000$ after taxes first year, + per diems, + allowances. Will we have this in Canada???? Never. Yes I am still in the low-timer category. But I am a respected low-timer with a real job. Thats what has separated me.

Still chasing tin? Haven't learned that it's about lifestyle not what you are flying? Got your 1500hrs, came back to Canada and realized that none of the airlines here care that you have 1500hrs in the right seat of an A320 with no other experience? Go out, have some fun flying the little things, you'll even be surprised at the lifestyle and pay that many 703 operations allow for.

porcsord wrote:

Sky_Conqueror wrote:Everywhere else in the world pilots are taken straight from Flight School. And yes...Including Europe in most cases. So, bottom line: 1500 rules is stupid, ridiculous to us and people abroad, it slows down and complicates operations, its stupid, its idiotic, its useless.......etc.

Do you know why I feel more comfortable flying with Air Canada and WestJet more than almost any other airline on the planet? Because when the shit hits the fan, their drivers know how to fly an airplane. They know this because of the experience they've acquired flying prior to being put in a large fully automated aircraft. Air France 441, Air Asia 8501 and Colgan Air 3407 are all prime examples of not enough relevant experience flying aircraft. None of those should have happened, and wouldn't have happened if the pilots knew how to recover from a stall. You say a Dash-8 is easy to fly? Maybe, in the right conditions, but when the red lights start to blink and you need to make the decisions, I can guarantee you will be more busy in a DH8 than a BE20.

1500hrs is not a lot of time, that's enough time to think you're the best but not enough time to realize that you're still learning. It took me about 18 months to get to 1500 hours of PIC time, that's not a long time. It sickens me this new generation of people who demand everything instantaneously.

The wonderful thing about the internet: it does not forget.

Sky_Conqueror wrote:I had to leave the country to get more respectable jobs! I now am in South East Asia flying the A320 right seat. NEVER would I have had an offer such as this with our stupid idiotic mentality we have in Canada with the hours I had 2 years ago. Never! I make more than anyone would ever make at the level I am at. I got that position with less than 500 hours at the time, making 85 000$ after taxes first year, + per diems, + allowances. Will we have this in Canada???? Never. Yes I am still in the low-timer category. But I am a respected low-timer with a real job. Thats what has separated me.

Still chasing tin? Haven't learned that it's about lifestyle not what you are flying? Got your 1500hrs, came back to Canada and realized that none of the airlines here care that you have 1500hrs in the right seat of an A320 with no other experience? Go out, have some fun flying the little things, you'll even be surprised at the lifestyle and pay that many 703 operations allow for.

Porcsord and I just became best friends. If s*** hits the fan, a 500-1000 hours pilot IMHO will not be able to handle the emergency to the extent that Westjet or Air Canada pilots do. Those pilots have had years of experience and VERY rarely do they make the tabloid of some incident that happened BECAUSE they handled the emergency successfully. A 200 hour pilot simply hasn't built or been exposed to the decision making skills that a seasoned (5+ years experience in commercial aviation) pilot has been exposed to. The younger generation is all about lets get to the biggest tin the quickest making the big bucks, but is it really that safe? I asked a pilot I flew with at my previous company who now works as an FO at Jazz and asked him if he feels like he is ready to command a 705 machine when his bid comes up with just under 200 hours MPIC, and he was honest and said nope. I myself would not feel ready either to command a 705 machine with that little command experience. Just enjoy your journey and when the time comes, you will be ready. Its like marriage-you may be young and say oh yes this is what I want I am in love with this person, but really, you are just a young person with a clouded judgement. do 5-10 years of commercial flying until you can really say you are ready to fly the heavies.

Remember the old days where you needed 2-3000 TT to even go captain on a Navajo? There you go.

That's just because the industry at the time dictated you needed that time because of the jobs available and the experience needed to get to an airline. No one needs 2000-3000TT hours to qualify to fly a Navajo. It's a piston twin.

Black_Tusk wrote:That's just because the industry at the time dictated you needed that time because of the jobs available and the experience needed to get to an airline. No one needs 2000-3000TT hours to qualify to fly a Navajo. It's a piston twin.

I'd also submit that it's (Navajo SPIFR) one of the more challenging jobs out there, usually involving one or more of the following: short (gravel) strips, long days, heavy loads, marginal performance, no backup (co-joe).

How come the F.O.'s in Europe generally train from PPL to F.O. qualified and go straight to the right hand seat and flying the line?

Oh, I know, it is because the airlines don't do many landings and take off's over there and they don't have many airline category airplanes flying in Europe.

Yeh, that's it.

Cat Driver wrote:How come the F.O.'s in Europe generally train from PPL to F.O. qualified and go straight to the right hand seat and flying the line?

Oh, I know, it is because the airlines don't do many landings and take off's over there and they don't have many airline category airplanes flying in Europe.

Yeh, that's it.

Go on pilot career center, you'll find a very nice list of turboprop operations everywhere in Europe. Ok maybe not all small, but they do exist. As for the airline category...

I think the debate is money over qualification. That's it.

Do you know why some European airlines choose cadets instead of pilots with 4000 hours of dash8 or military experience? Because they are the only one that accept to put up with the bottom line working conditions and jet type rating costs.

My opinion, the cadet schemes are maybe over rated, they are a hugely financially beneficial for training facilities, so don't expect rational analysis from the latest. No datas on training and line check are available, so no one really knows how great these programs are. Ryanair pointed out a while ago that almost 50% of the cadets or recently cpl trained pilots were failing the sim evaluation, even though they all had the full scenario from a to z, all they had to do is memorize and fly.

Just posting this here:
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2017/jan/2 ... e-wages-c/

Projections published by the University of North Dakota’s Aviation Department have indicated that U.S. airlines may start running out of pilots in as soon as two years.

The issue is many current pilots are reaching their mandatory retirement age of 65 and fewer young people are choosing commercial aviation as a profession. That deficit is expected to reach about 15,000 by 2026, according to the study.

The lack of interest partly stems from low-paying regional carriers — where many aviation professionals start their careers.


“Starting pilots don’t make much at all,” said Virginia Kinach, a retired corporate pilot. “It’s seniority based.”

Common figures found online say that in recent years a starting pilot might have only made about $20,000 annually. Ed Kalabus, a retired airline pilot who is now a freelance flight instructor in Prescott, said that is about right.

These low wages follow what is a notoriously expensive flight-training process.

“If you call a puppy mill school, they’ll quote you a number like $60,000,” Kalabus said.

The situation was worsened when Congress passed a law in 2013 mandating most aspiring pilots fly 1,500 hours before being hired by a regional carrier, up from as few as 250 hours.

“That really closed it off for a lot of people,” Kalabus said.

Airlines have just begun to address these issues, specifically focusing on raising starting wages and providing additional incentives such as signing bonuses.

“There are ads out there right now that they’ll hire you, blah, blah, and give you a premium to sign on if you’re qualified,” Kalabus said. “They’re not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they’re doing it out of necessity. They have to get competitive to get the better people.”

It's about time and I hope it happens here, I'd love to see some of these arrogant chief pilots and DFOs knocked down a few pegs and dragged into the year 2017. Newsflash boys and girls, the days of "this is what I had to go through so I'm gonna do it to you" are over. Take a cue from your coworkers south of the line and start standing up and saying no to the awful pay, remember they need you more than you need them!