Halifax crash report coming Thursday

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complexintentions
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by complexintentions »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:56 am I don't feel like the fact that they didn't have this available was 'damning' to the crew. Or, are you suggesting that they should have pulled out the calculators and created a Alt/Dis crosscheck chart from scratch, using 3.5 degrees?
They absolutely did have it available, the Jepp plate - as Eric pointed out - very much does have published distances and altitudes every mile. As you observed it wasn't much use because they weren't flying the VDA as charted (3.5 degrees vs 3.08 degrees). So yeah, damning.

I get they may have had their reasons to select a higher than charted angle, maybe they thought they had initiated descent late and didn't want to be high - whatever. But if you're going to do that, ie "intercept from above" you better have some other way of knowing if you're high/low/on profile, or trending towards/away from it. Only way to do that on this particular approach is distance versus altitude.

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The statement at the bottom of the image kind of blows my mind.

And while I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic about calculators and creating a chart, perhaps someone can explain how using your own mental math to crosscheck your aircraft position is such a bad idea? On EVERY approach, let alone a NP?

Agreed that ultimately, it was busting MDA without proper visual reference that sealed the deal.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Capt. Underpants »

The modified VDA was a company SOP for cold weather ops. The SOP required the crew to calculate a new FAF crossing height and new MDA. Then they needed to calculate an FPA to compensate for these corrections. The SOP did not require them to recalculate the altitude crosscheck heights. Also, even if they had been doing cross checks, the SOP did not allow them to make an FPA correction once inside the FAF.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Cliff Jumper »

complexintentions wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:39 am They absolutely did have it available, the Jepp plate - as Eric pointed out - very much does have published distances and altitudes every mile. As you observed it wasn't much use because they weren't flying the VDA as charted (3.5 degrees vs 3.08 degrees). So yeah, damning

And while I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic about calculators and creating a chart, perhaps someone can explain how using your own mental math to crosscheck your aircraft position is such a bad idea? On EVERY approach, let alone a NP?
I'm not sure why I'm debating this with you, but I still don't see what is 'damning' on the crew about not having a usable chart. Not the greatest from an operators perspective perhaps, instructing your crews to adjust an FPA in cold weather, and then not telling them what to do about the *new* VDA chart. But, I'm not sure that it's the crew's 'fault' that they didn't have it, nor not being taught how to create one.

Also, who is debating whether cross-checking is a good idea. Nobody, certainly not me. What I was saying was that in this case, the chart was no help. They could have used mental math, but again, I don't think most pilot are trained for this. Sure, you could use 3.5 deg = 350ft/nm, but it would be inaccurate by about 20 feet every nm, and so, by 5 nm, nearing MDA, you're going to be 100 feet too high, or too low, depend on how you've back filled the chart. And then what are you going to do? Correct the FPA, which is not allowed by SOPs? Probably not the best idea.

So, a summary of this debate so far.....

Y'all said "YOU HAVE TO CROSS CHECK!!!"
I said "Against what? the VDA chart wouldn't have helped",
Y'all said "YES IT WOULD!!",
I said "No, it wouldn't"
Y'all said "WELL YOU GOTTA USE MENTAL MATH!!!"
I say "wouldn't really have helped here".

Note - I never said anything about fault, blame, or whatever, nor that cross checking anything is a bad idea.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Eric Janson »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:39 pm So, a summary of this debate so far.....

Y'all said "YOU HAVE TO CROSS CHECK!!!"
I said "Against what? the VDA chart wouldn't have helped",
Y'all said "YES IT WOULD!!",
I said "No, it wouldn't"
Y'all said "WELL YOU GOTTA USE MENTAL MATH!!!"
I say "wouldn't really have helped here".

Note - I never said anything about fault, blame, or whatever, nor that cross checking anything is a bad idea.
You can certainly apply cold weather corrections to every crossing altitude - then use distance vs altitude as a crosscheck. The altitude corrections are on the conservative side but at MDA you'd be very close to the correct profile and you'd only need small corrections to follow the PAPI.

If you are off profile simply adjust the FPA and modify as required - it's very easy to do. Basic Airmanship imho - although that seems to be a dirty word in these times where people's feelings are the only thing that matters!

This discussion certainly shows there's a lot of confusion about NPAs. It's clear a lot of people either don't fly them regularly or at all (except in the SIM). I was one of those people for about 5 years.

Interestingly

- Halifax
- San Francisco
- Montego Bay
- St. Maarten

all featured NPAs. There appears to be a serious issue at Canadian carriers.

The initial comments on these occurrences are interesting to read.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by complexintentions »

They could have used mental math, but again, I don't think most pilot are trained for this.
"Trained?" Like, a course? In how to do simple arithmetic? Wowsa. I'm sure there's an app for that? :lol:

When I read a post like cliffjumper's, it's pretty much the point in a thread where I just shrug mildly, smile and think, "Do whatever the f$ck you want - really, I don't care". I mean, if the strongest condemnation of blindly following a FPA or V/S is that "crosschecking is not a bad idea", there's no discussion to be had.

Cya at the next discussion of the next tiresomely inevitable incident/accident. :mrgreen:
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Eric Janson wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:57 am
If you are off profile simply adjust the FPA and modify as required - it's very easy to do. Basic Airmanship imho - although that seems to be a dirty word in these times where people's feelings are the only thing that matters!
The Air Canada SOP forbade pilots from making FPA adjustments inside the FAF.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by rookiepilot »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:39 pm
They could have used mental math, but again, I don't think most pilot are trained for this.
Gee, that $100k degree only AC requires, doesn't seem to be much use then, no?
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Cliff Jumper »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:10 am
Cliff Jumper wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:39 pm
They could have used mental math, but again, I don't think most pilot are trained for this.
Gee, that $100k degree only AC requires, doesn't seem to be much use then, no?
Go ahead and show us all your mental math for creating a cold wx corrected 3.5 degree slope, and then tell us all how you'd break SOP and adjust the FPA to chase this made up slope.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but seriously, this is a terrible idea.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Eric Janson »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:42 am
Eric Janson wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:57 am
If you are off profile simply adjust the FPA and modify as required - it's very easy to do. Basic Airmanship imho - although that seems to be a dirty word in these times where people's feelings are the only thing that matters!
The Air Canada SOP forbade pilots from making FPA adjustments inside the FAF.
Which I addressed in a previous post.

This is contrary to airbus procedures.

I've never done anything else but adjust FPA as required to maintain the correct profile. Basic IF procedures/Basic Airmanship imho.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by complexintentions »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:56 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:10 am Gee, that $100k degree only AC requires, doesn't seem to be much use then, no?
Go ahead and show us all your mental math for creating a cold wx corrected 3.5 degree slope, and then tell us all how you'd break SOP and adjust the FPA to chase this made up slope.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but seriously, this is a terrible idea.
A couple of techniques for crosschecking on cold-wx non-precision approaches. Which incidentally are SOP at my carrier and have had similar at previous employers.

If mental math is too hard, use a calculator. It's not like they didn't have enough time, sitting in the hold.

Performing an approach in V/S or FPA with a) no way of verifying your position and b) an SOP that forbids correcting the flightpath is far more of a terrible idea. Also not trying to be insulting, but frankly this isn't really about people's feelings.


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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by pelmet »

According to a source of mine.....AC is slowly changing their procedures on the Airbus to what the Airbus procedures are. And apparently all kinds of other procedures making it 'hard to keep up with all the changes'.

I have no confirmation on that accuracy of this.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Maynard »

pelmet wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:53 am According to a source of mine.....AC is slowly changing their procedures on the Airbus to what the Airbus procedures are. And apparently all kinds of procedures making it 'hard to keep up with all the changes'.

I have no confirmation on that accuracy of this.
That statement doesn’t really make sense
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by pelmet »

Maynard wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:21 pm
pelmet wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:53 am According to a source of mine.....AC is slowly changing their procedures on the Airbus to what the Airbus procedures are. And apparently all kinds of procedures making it 'hard to keep up with all the changes'.

I have no confirmation on that accuracy of this.
That statement doesn’t really make sense
Sorry,

They are slowly getting rid of their own procedures and doing things the way Airbus recommends.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

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pelmet wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:53 am According to a source of mine.....AC is slowly changing their procedures on the Airbus to what the Airbus procedures are. And apparently all kinds of procedures making it 'hard to keep up with all the changes'.

I have no confirmation on that accuracy of this.
Yes AC is transforming to be more inline with Airbus procedures.

No the procedures are not making it “hard to keep up with all the changes.”
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by pelmet »

bcflyer wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:57 pm
pelmet wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:53 am According to a source of mine.....AC is slowly changing their procedures on the Airbus to what the Airbus procedures are. And apparently all kinds of procedures making it 'hard to keep up with all the changes'.

I have no confirmation on that accuracy of this.
Yes AC is transforming to be more inline with Airbus procedures.

No the procedures are not making it “hard to keep up with all the changes.”
I should clarify what I was told because I did not post it clearly(has been modified)....If I understood correctly, the 'hard to keep up with all the changes in general procedures in addition to Airbus stuff. Opinion on his part only and possibly an exaggeration.

Feel free to let us know. If so, it is nothing new as I have had the pleasure of working for an operation with near endless changes, sometimes back and forth. After a series of hard landings, at one point for about six months we had the monitoring pilot call......'Flare'.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by EPR »

EPR wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:05 pm This critique of the TSB report by Capt. Steve Last is quite an eye opener to say the least! :shock:
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by Eric Janson »

EPR wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:10 pm
EPR wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:05 pm This critique of the TSB report by Capt. Steve Last is quite an eye opener to say the least! :shock:
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
Some interesting information.

However what is not emphasised is that most other Airlines including all the ones I have flown for would not have been permitted to commence this approach in the first place.

There is a reason why visibility/ceiling limits are published.
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

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My point being that the TSB, really "white-washed" their report...for the first time in the 30 years that I've been reading them! :shock:
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Re: Halifax crash report coming Thursday

Post by pelmet »

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/h ... c0be7120b8

Not sure if that means it will be made public. Sometimes, as seen in the US, it can be helpful for further analysis.
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