Encore ALPA vote??

[skybaron]

What gives here? What is taking these guys so long to follow suit? I assumed with little mention of this that this was a no brainer, but I just found out that they have yet to even vote, let alone certify!

Perhaps there is a greater disconnect between the groups. Common sense would dictate that if your parent group/peers chose to unionize with a bigger voice within the company, then why be the minnow and stand on the sidelines? Especially with Encores WAWCON.

[Jimmy2]

Joining ALPA liking means losing the One List seniority system currently in place since they are separate companies.

[atphat]

There is a problem with Encore WAWCON? You would never know that talking to any Encore pilot. Things are perfect there from what I understand.

[cdnpilot77]

What gives here? What is taking these guys so long to follow suit?

Not every pilot in Canada thinks that Unions are the be all, end all saviours of the profession. We are our own worst enemies some times.

[skybaron]

What gives here? What is taking these guys so long to follow suit?

Not every pilot in Canada thinks that Unions are the be all, end all saviours of the profession. We are our own worst enemies some times.

Agreed, if it were the 90's to just shy of present.

The tide is changing. Company expansions and retirement mean that it is a great time to be a driver. A more unified stance across companies (and the country) will only be in our favour. Sitting on the sidelines having some ridiculous debate over a Union vs non in a single company will only make us take steps backwards. Welcome CEO raises.

In the end it's about having a professional association country wide. Think big fellas, and don't sell yourselves short.

[skybaron]

There is a problem with Encore WAWCON? You would never know that talking to any Encore pilot. Things are perfect there from what I understand.

Makes sense then that Encores most experienced pilots decide to quickly move over to the 737 for less than half their salary. I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

If all this is true, then it just highlights the desperate need for a unified voice.

[Dizzy D]

It's closer than you think, Encore will certify with ALPA. It's not like you flip a switch and unionize. There are a lot of pilots busting their asses to make it happen.

[Jean-Pierre]

I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

Just wait until he decide to come to Mainline and jump ahead of hundred of pilot in the seniority list. I guarantee at least one will grieve it with ALPA. Then it get interesting.

[Bede]

I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

Just wait until he decide to come to Mainline and jump ahead of hundred of pilot in the seniority list. I guarantee at least one will grieve it with ALPA. Then it get interesting.

That makes no sense. Whoever this guy is already has his spot on the WJ list and indeed will "jump ahead" of people because it's one list. Also, you don't decide to grieve something you don't like- you bring it to ALPA's attention and they decide if they want to grieve it. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean a grievance is filed.

[Jean-Pierre]

We wait and see.

[JBI]

We wait and see.

You'll be waiting for quite sometime.

[Jean-Pierre]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

[JBI]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

One what? The plot thickens.

[Bede]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

No it doesn't. The union decides grievances not employees.

[JBI]

Could be any day now. It only take one.

No it doesn't. The union decides grievances not employees.

Bede... Shhhhhh! I want to hear more about Jean-Pierre's thoughts on how unions work. It's far more interesting than what's outlined in the Canada Labour Code or, you know, reality.

[lostaviator]

There is a problem with Encore WAWCON? You would never know that talking to any Encore pilot. Things are perfect there from what I understand.

Makes sense then that Encores most experienced pilots decide to quickly move over to the 737 for less than half their salary. I also understand that their CP and others have secured their mainline spot, but still work at Encore (without a paycut).

If all this is true, then it just highlights the desperate need for a unified voice.

Curious where you got your numbers/what your math skills are like.

Encore captain = 68,000 / yr
WJ FO = 55,000 / yr

Encore = 218 days of work per year.
WestJet = 182 days of work per year.

Encore = $311 / day.
WestJet $302 / day.

If you want to factor in the ESP, I take home more money as an FO on at WJ then I ever did left seat at encore.

It's never ideal to take a pay cut, but its not like wj is the only airline in North America it happens at.

[Jimmy2]

Bede... Shhhhhh! I want to hear more about Jean-Pierre's thoughts on how unions work.

Encore isn't part of the union.
The worst part of this situation for Encore pilots is the not knowing. Everything is totally up in the air. Basically they are damned if they do and damned if they don't (unionize). If they do join ALPA they will be bound by ALPA's constitution that does not permit the current one list agreement. If they don't unionize any new hire at West Jet could complain and start the process of knocking them down the seniority list. That could also be retroactive. So even if they've been at Mainline for 5 years and think they have it made in the shade suddenly they could one day lose hundreds of places in seniority when a decision on this issue is finally made. This whole thing has got to be stressful for anyone at Encore or at WestJet that skipped ahead of OTS hires. The not knowing.

Does anyone know if flow through and the one list is written into the employment contract at Encore? If so they may have a legal leg to stand on. If it's just a gentleman's agreement it's not worth anything and you can't count on it now or in the future.

[JBI]

While I appreciate this is the internet and an anonymous forum, your post is inaccurate.

Encore isn't part of the union.
The worst part of this situation for Encore pilots is the not knowing. Everything is totally up in the air. Basically they are damned if they do and damned if they don't (unionize).

There are pros and cons to certifying. I would not say they are "damned" either way.

If they do join ALPA they will be bound by ALPA's constitution that does not permit the current one list agreement.

ALPA's Constitution does not say anything about the current one list agreement. You should read it before posting on what it does or does not say.

If they don't unionize any new hire at West Jet could complain and start the process of knocking them down the seniority list. That could also be retroactive.

No. That is not how grieving works.

So even if they've been at Mainline for 5 years and think they have it made in the shade suddenly they could one day lose hundreds of places in seniority when a decision on this issue is finally made.
This whole thing has got to be stressful for anyone at Encore or at WestJet that skipped ahead of OTS hires. The not knowing.

WestJet pilots will give direction to the MEC to negotiate a new CBA with the company which will include how seniority is determined. If a majority of WestJet pilots wanted to change the way seniority is awarded, that is something they could try to negotiate. This would not be something that they'd "suddenly" lose. Once a new CBA is negotiated I believe it still has to be voted on (I am not 100% certain on that).

Does anyone know if flow through and the one list is written into the employment contract at Encore? If so they may have a legal leg to stand on. If it's just a gentleman's agreement it's not worth anything and you can't count on it now or in the future.

It is written, but whether terms of an employment contract are written or not does not affect whether they are legally binding. Oral contracts are just as legally binding as written contracts - it is just more practical to determine the terms of a particular contract.

There is some uncertainty for the Encore pilots at the moment and I imagine that this is frustrating for many of them. Nothing remotely like your wild speculations though.

[twinpratts]

If Encore chose not to unionize, it may be that they might get to operate the NG at the LCC. Who knows, they might even get the 767's once the Dreamliners get here.
If so, they (WJPA) might be the ones laughing at us (APLA) in the end.
Whoops.

[JBI]

If Encore chose not to unionize, it may be that they might get to operate the NG at the LCC. Who knows, they might even get the 767's once the Dreamliners get here.
If so, they (WJPA) might be the ones laughing at us (APLA) in the end.
Whoops.

Nope. There are reasons (generally speaking and specific to Encore) not to unionize, but based on the current WestJet pilot agreement and the Canada Labour Code regulations and the realities of negotiating a new CBA, the likelihood of this happening is just about zero.

[V1]

The thing about Encore is it has a pool of pilots who may have never had a union experience or airline experience before. Almost all those that have had union experiences before are quite negative about the union, and the ones from say Calm Air are the only ones that seem positive about it.
You are only as good as your representation period.

There is absolutely NO rush to unionize and join the brothers and sisters in unity or whatever fear mongering with seniority lists go which insultingly happens from WJ pilots, every thing is based completely on the results the WJ survey which no one will see anytime soon. Both sides have promised verbally and in writing to protect the one list. If either side decides to not do that, that is when things will get dirty. The WJPA has a bank of money to protect those rights, if ALPA comes in that money gets donated to a charity. As a reason to join ALPA could get messy if Encore jumps on that bandwagon before negotiations start, and then the Westjet pilots agree to not protect it based on their survey results.. where does that Unity go? There is none, and they are part of the same organization. Following people blindly is probably the worst decision anyone could ever make. Do you really want to spend the union dues that you are borrowing anyways in the first year suing each other?

As many others have said on here, if the seniority/one list is in the WJ agreement there is absolutely nothing to grieve. Pilots who come off the street know exactly what they are signing up for so for them to even try to change that shows you really what kind of person they are, not someone you want to be flying with. This is the unity that unions talk so proudly of..

One list is in the contract, and in the current agreements, business model etc.

Whichever way the pilots decide to go there is no rush. The fear mongering from WJ pilots is ridiculous and not a reason to join ALPA but they still continue to do it, if anything is ultimately has turned many people off.

[rudder]

Here is what the Encore pilots need to understand - the WJ pilot seniority list is the property of the WJ pilots. It will be dealt with in the seniority section of the CBA.If they codify the reserved number system then the numbers are safe. If they choose not to, then their is no recourse for the Encore pilots.

WJ needs this arrangement for Encore pilot recruitment and retention so the WJ pilots will be wise to derive maximum benefit for preserving it in the CBA.

[JBI]

Here is what the Encore pilots need to understand - the WJ pilot seniority list is the property of the WJ pilots. It will be dealt with in the seniority section of the CBA.If they codify the reserved number system then the numbers are safe. If they choose not to, then their is no recourse for the Encore pilots.

Yes!

Finally, after all the other incorrect statements I was getting cranky. I do think the vast majority of the Encore pilots understand that it's up to the WJ pilots to negotiate seniority (the majority of AvCanadians not so much).

Considering there are more Encore pilots that have flowed to WJ than there are OTS candidates at WJ (since Encore started), I would be surprised if there was a direction to not permit Encore DOH. However, if seniority is not negotiated to include the current date of hire at Encore, while there isn't necessarily recourse to Encore pilots to gain that seniority back, per se, there are a number of options moving forward. For example, if there isn't Date of Hire, Encore would arguably have to significantly increase WAWCON if they wanted to attract and retain pilots. In addition, WestJet could choose to only hire from Encore moving forward given a de facto date of hire situation for Encore pilots (i.e. no OTS candidates to 'bump'). These are all just examples - nothing is set in stone. While I'm sure every WJ/Encore pilot would prefer to have things set in stone, that's just not the case at the moment.

So while there is some uncertainty for Encore pilots, it's not a "Sky is falling" situation as is portrayed by some of the more dramatic AvCanada prognosticators. The vast majority of Encore pilots are extremely supportive of the WestJet pilots and their negotiations and the Encore pilots have been discussing the issues in a respectful, professional manner. There is not a divided pilot group. Are things perfect? No, but they are pretty good and while I think there will continue to be a bit of uncertainty for the next little while, I do think things will get sorted out.

[flyinhigh]

I guess Jazz doesn't care about constitution either as Jimmy2 and Jean-Pierre have stated.

http://flyjazz.mediaroom.com/index.php? ... tem=122663

[Bede]

I guess Jazz doesn't care about constitution either as Jimmy2 and Jean-Pierre have stated.

http://flyjazz.mediaroom.com/index.php? ... tem=122663

Good find.

The Encore guys need to realize that they're in a win-win situation right now. If all goes well they eventually go to WJ. If things go sour they apply at AC and pretty much have a job there. Rumour has it some 14 WJE captains have AC medicals booked.