What is everyone's opinion on this topic? Does everyone agree that pretty soon flight training will consist of going to remote-control flight school to learn how to control an airplane from the ground using computers? Or will un-manned air travel never happend beacuse of the comfort factor with pax.
Will the true flying jobs lie in the short commuter type operations that Jazz and Tier 3 do now, and everyone will be gunning for those jobs?
They have done many years of testing on this, much to my dismay, and it doesn't seem to be too far off now.
Un-manned aircraft: where is aviation headed?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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squawk 7600
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Honestly, I don't think unmanned aircraft can happen for a long time. I think alot of people would be very uncomfortable having a computer fly them around. Not to mention even if it flys on it's own, I think a pilot should always be present... "just incase". You know what I mean? Just my own opinion ofcourse.
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squawk 7600
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SkyWolfe,
I would love to agree with you, but I saw a program on the Discovery channel a few months ago, and apparently they have made alot of headway in the past few years and have actually flown a few successful flights. The show really upset me, because these developers actually believe that it will happen very soon...in 10 years or so, and they honestly believe they can make computer flown aircraft safer than manned aircraft. They bascially said pilots will become obsolete. I say they should talk to Airbus before they go and do anything rash.
I would love to agree with you, but I saw a program on the Discovery channel a few months ago, and apparently they have made alot of headway in the past few years and have actually flown a few successful flights. The show really upset me, because these developers actually believe that it will happen very soon...in 10 years or so, and they honestly believe they can make computer flown aircraft safer than manned aircraft. They bascially said pilots will become obsolete. I say they should talk to Airbus before they go and do anything rash.
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linecrew
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Un-manned aircraft: where is aviation headed?
The current technology is not fail-safe and signal loss does ooccasionally happen to US military UAVs over Iraq. The pilots flying these "drones" are actually doing so from the US!! Another current concern is over hackers compromising signal security.
Commercial UAV ops is not going to happen any time soon but my guess is that it will start off in the freight world where proving hours will be racked up with minimal risk to human lives.
Commercial UAV ops is not going to happen any time soon but my guess is that it will start off in the freight world where proving hours will be racked up with minimal risk to human lives.
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Gurundu the Rat
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bizjet_mania
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Lol bizjet, that was what the article would have had you believe. If memory serves me right what they were doing on that one was to have the autopilot follow a STAR and then do the approach and landing. This coupled with direct pilot controller datalink communications was interpreted to mean that the pilots were not present. Even though they were still processing everything and very much running the aircraft.
Don't believe everything you read in the news or see on tv. There are a ton of issues to be solved for unmanned passenger flights that have not even been considered yet. We will not need to worry about losing our jobs to computers in this lifetime. A computer simply cannot make the types of decisions that pilots have to make on a regular basis. Not that i am saying pilots are smart or anything, just that the smartest computer is not nearly as smart as the dumbest person.
Don't believe everything you read in the news or see on tv. There are a ton of issues to be solved for unmanned passenger flights that have not even been considered yet. We will not need to worry about losing our jobs to computers in this lifetime. A computer simply cannot make the types of decisions that pilots have to make on a regular basis. Not that i am saying pilots are smart or anything, just that the smartest computer is not nearly as smart as the dumbest person.
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Right Seat Captain
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UAVs can fly things around other than passengers. Cargo isn't as valuable as human life, or some sort of aerial work such as spraying or surveying. As someone else mentioned, there are some UAVs already being used for survey applications in the north, where they do not fly over any persons or property.
Recently, there was some sort of UAV activity East of Ottawa in the Hawksbury area. I don't know what it was, but they had a NOTAM out for it for a few weeks.
Recently, there was some sort of UAV activity East of Ottawa in the Hawksbury area. I don't know what it was, but they had a NOTAM out for it for a few weeks.
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sky's the limit
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It's comming boys and girls.
Most airliners fly themselves already, a few adjustments here and there, and presto - no pilots. Some of the guys I've worked with over the years probably do more harm thatn good...
The U.S. military already flies missions remotely from "real-time" simulators, that could be an option. I have no doubt we'll see it within 10-15 on frieght etc.
Most airliners fly themselves already, a few adjustments here and there, and presto - no pilots. Some of the guys I've worked with over the years probably do more harm thatn good...
The U.S. military already flies missions remotely from "real-time" simulators, that could be an option. I have no doubt we'll see it within 10-15 on frieght etc.
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Cat Driver
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Hmmm...I wonder if bush flying will be flown by computer?
And of course the next logical question would be how many hours would the computers need before the insurance companies will insure them for their first job?
And of course the next logical question would be how many hours would the computers need before the insurance companies will insure them for their first job?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Computers are already flying the airplanes. All the pilots are doing is telling the computer what they want the airplane to do. Reliability of computers is not an issue. The real problems will be the reliability of ground to air data links and integrating new pilotless aircraft into a system still full of old technology aircraft that rely on handraulics. They're a long way away from a system that can deal with Joe Hick who gets in the way with his wood and rag homebuilt that doesn't show up on radar, TCAS, etc. The Mk1 eyeball will have a role to play for some time to come. But, I would bet one pair of eyes rather than 2 or 3 is not too far off.
What you guys don't see is that those UAV's crash all the time. They are no where near perfect.
Malfunctions happen everyday in commercial aircraft all over the world, the pilots that fly em just work with it and make it seem like nothing happened on the flight while you were in that narrow tube flying 6 miles above solid ground at 1000km/hr with your family.
Think about it... won't happen for a long time...
Malfunctions happen everyday in commercial aircraft all over the world, the pilots that fly em just work with it and make it seem like nothing happened on the flight while you were in that narrow tube flying 6 miles above solid ground at 1000km/hr with your family.
Think about it... won't happen for a long time...
Sanjet is correct. Attrition is still a serious issue with UAV's. What does an average airliner fly in the run of a year? 2,000 hours? 3,000 hours? No single UAV exists today, and not for the forseeable future, that has accumulated any serious amount of time on the airframe. They have improved, but not to the point of being able to demonstrate 30,000 or 40,000 hours on a single airframe.
IMO, it'll be more than 20 years before you see pilotless airliners.
IMO, it'll be more than 20 years before you see pilotless airliners.
"Don't stand too still..."
Folks there is a BIG difference between UNMANNED air vehicles and UNPILOTED vehicles. Right now, even the best Unmanned AV's require a pilot on the ground. Train a pilot and send him up or train a pilot and sit him down - it isn' that much cheaper - especially if it crashes.....at least in civil aviation with lawsuits at every corner.........
You glorified bus drivers can relax...aint' no way they will turn athourity over to those who TRULY control the skies anytime soon...instead I'll just have to listen to you all piss and moan about a little light chop....call it job security....
Think b4 you respond...
You glorified bus drivers can relax...aint' no way they will turn athourity over to those who TRULY control the skies anytime soon...instead I'll just have to listen to you all piss and moan about a little light chop....call it job security....
Think b4 you respond...
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monkeyspankmasterflex
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Talk to some ex-navigators or flight engineers. If you can convince the public to zorch through the sky, miles above the ground, in a pressurized tube with contained fires on each wing I think you can convince them to do it with some sort of "systems engineer" on board who will also fetch them a pillow and a coffee. That's right, pilots of the future will be some sort of cross between an IT geek and a FA. The good news, this industrsy changing development will cause flight schools around the country to close due to the fact that airline pilots will now be trained by community colleges' Travel Agent programs. With the flight schools closed, the pilot labour market saturation will eventually adjust itself to equilibrium. All of a sudden, Metro and King Air positions are the highest paying and former members of the original AC pilots and ex-Canadian pilots will make amends while working the ramp together at Perimeter. Take that shit to the bank.
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squawk 7600
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Monkeyspank,
That is the funniest shit i've heard all day, and I swear I fly with comedians.
pilot: "Centre, Air Canada 146. Any reports of a smooth ride anywhere?"
response from another aircraft: "yo momma's a smooth ride!"
As far as un-manned aircraft are concerned, there are two things to be considered that totally slipped my mind:
1) It will take many, many years before the insurance companies and lawyers decide whether it will be more profitable for them. The lawyers will love it because of the many crashes and accompanied lawsuits; but the insurance companies will hate it because the billions they will be forced to fork out by bloodsucking lawyers and judges. So I guess we can just sit back and watch these two groups go toe to toe. By the time they are done with that argument, we'll all be living on space stations and other planets anyways, aviation not really being aviation anymore.
2) I can almost hear the joys of excitement from El-Quieda when they realize the ease of jamming communications and plunging these unmanned rockets into the CN Tower.
That is the funniest shit i've heard all day, and I swear I fly with comedians.
pilot: "Centre, Air Canada 146. Any reports of a smooth ride anywhere?"
response from another aircraft: "yo momma's a smooth ride!"
As far as un-manned aircraft are concerned, there are two things to be considered that totally slipped my mind:
1) It will take many, many years before the insurance companies and lawyers decide whether it will be more profitable for them. The lawyers will love it because of the many crashes and accompanied lawsuits; but the insurance companies will hate it because the billions they will be forced to fork out by bloodsucking lawyers and judges. So I guess we can just sit back and watch these two groups go toe to toe. By the time they are done with that argument, we'll all be living on space stations and other planets anyways, aviation not really being aviation anymore.
2) I can almost hear the joys of excitement from El-Quieda when they realize the ease of jamming communications and plunging these unmanned rockets into the CN Tower.
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monkeyspankmasterflex
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In the year 2007:
Insurance companies will be able to charge a premium (equal to cost of front end salary) for insururing UAVs. Airlines will love it as the premiums cannot form a union and do not require a pension.
Lawyers will no longer have to contend with suing airlines in the face of a "hero-pilot" who may have in fact saved hundreds of lives. Many pilots will prosper as key subject matter experts in post-incident class action suits.
Al Queda will become pro-Western by renewing ties to Bush and become majority owners of the Dallas Cowboys and Starbucks. Coffee gets better, Cowgirls get veiled.
Insurance companies will be able to charge a premium (equal to cost of front end salary) for insururing UAVs. Airlines will love it as the premiums cannot form a union and do not require a pension.
Lawyers will no longer have to contend with suing airlines in the face of a "hero-pilot" who may have in fact saved hundreds of lives. Many pilots will prosper as key subject matter experts in post-incident class action suits.
Al Queda will become pro-Western by renewing ties to Bush and become majority owners of the Dallas Cowboys and Starbucks. Coffee gets better, Cowgirls get veiled.
UAV in the Survey industry
Although a few companies have tried this route, there are still several factors that make this a very primitive science for this industry. First off, in order to fly these thing in a safe manner you really need a "no fly zone" rather than a NOTAM. These things are built to fly at approx 50mph for up to 8 hours........so you have this little 12 ft cruise missle that no one can see let alone communicate with in terms getting an accurate real time position. Sure the little dude on the ground has a rough idea where it is between his trips to the can and sports centre updates. This can be happening while any number of helicopters and fixed wing carry on other types of exporation activities....be they drill moves, moving line cutters/geos or claimstakers etc or just plain ol commuter work.
Secondly while this little gnat is flying around doing this, it is getting very low resolution data when compared to a regular fixed wing operations. The UAV is only capable of carrying a single magnetometer so the more accurate gradient work is out of the question. Compensated data from these things is often poor quality due to the noise that comes from the servos used to move control surfaces. The gps naviagation is so far quite crude single frequency gps ....some companies literally use a handheld gps that is not differentially corrected. Flight path from these units often shows it crossing flight lines etc. To date nothing is set up to contour the ground but only fly at a constant barometric altitude. No one utilizes a radar or laser altimeter so height above ground is not recorded.
I am very surprised that IAGSA have not put the thumbs down on these things until the technology is a bit more advanced. At best I can see these things obtaining mag data that maybe on par with some of the lower resolution operations such as Fugro (fixed wing mag only department not EM) and the like but no where near the high precession data one would expect from say Sanders. At any rate survey pilots will be around for a long time to come in my opinion. PS. any idea what the guy controling these things does when they get into icing....how do they know when that situation is even occuring....probably when they lose contact with it and hire a chopper to fly out to pick up the little ice cube!!
Cheers
Secondly while this little gnat is flying around doing this, it is getting very low resolution data when compared to a regular fixed wing operations. The UAV is only capable of carrying a single magnetometer so the more accurate gradient work is out of the question. Compensated data from these things is often poor quality due to the noise that comes from the servos used to move control surfaces. The gps naviagation is so far quite crude single frequency gps ....some companies literally use a handheld gps that is not differentially corrected. Flight path from these units often shows it crossing flight lines etc. To date nothing is set up to contour the ground but only fly at a constant barometric altitude. No one utilizes a radar or laser altimeter so height above ground is not recorded.
I am very surprised that IAGSA have not put the thumbs down on these things until the technology is a bit more advanced. At best I can see these things obtaining mag data that maybe on par with some of the lower resolution operations such as Fugro (fixed wing mag only department not EM) and the like but no where near the high precession data one would expect from say Sanders. At any rate survey pilots will be around for a long time to come in my opinion. PS. any idea what the guy controling these things does when they get into icing....how do they know when that situation is even occuring....probably when they lose contact with it and hire a chopper to fly out to pick up the little ice cube!!
Cheers
Beothuk1
