Where is this so called shortage

[Laguardia]

Long time lurker and I just couldn't help myself and decided to make an account and ask a question regarding this article

https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Aviat ... ft-workers

Where on earth is this shortage and upcoming sever shortage? I have a cpl with a cat 1 IFR and around 300 hours, yet I can't seem to get a job... All I've gotten were several offers for ramp positions which I am refused given all these shortages I keep hearing of... What gives? They make it sound as if airlines are so desperate for pilots they should be knocking on the door of every pilot who's registered in TCs database...

Everytime I read an article like this it makes me sick... There's a shortage of pilots you say? Ok, how about stop making them work ramp first, then pay them a decent salary, not minimum wage (or lower if they can get away with it) and then don't work them to the bone by pushing 14 hour duty days. All this doing you're time on the ramp stuff is old news and ridiculous. For all those who say I had to do it years ago, suck it up and get over it... that was then, not now... I get that you're sour and had to put up with a bunch of BS but that's not anyone's fault, those were the circumstances

There's alot more things I can point out but it's pointless really as this post won't do much... I just feel like I needed to vent in an aviation forum setting... I have recently given up on trying to be a pilot as my career, too much garbage to put up with for not enough reward in my opinion... I also know way too many annoyed/depressed pilots who all they do is complain all the time, yet they have great paying jobs and are in a great position... Given a lot of these factors, I've happily settled for a fairly good paying job in a different field, with the potential to rise and make great money with none of the very high stressors that come with being a pilot for an airline... I'll keep flying for fun as a side hobby but it's just a damn shame it has to be this way for some

You could say I'm sour and pissed because I haven't gotten a job and it could just be me who's at fault... Well to those I say feel free to believe whatever you want

[C-GGGQ]

At 400 hrs I got ignored by 98% too. Got two offers that weren't ramp, neither stellar, but one didn't involve moving half way across the country (again). However it's a big hit in the paycheque from driving truck so I fully get where you're coming from. If my wife hadn't wanted me out of trucking and pushed me to return to flying I likely wouldn't have gone back. If you are happy where you are then great, my grandfather always said get rich doing something else and buy a plane if you want to fly. Unfortunately trucking doesn't make buy a plane money lol

[flyinhigh]

I've bolded the points below as I am to lazy to continually break it apart.

1) have a cpl with a cat 1 IFR and around 300 hours,
Yes, you and every other graduate out there, so what separates you from them?????,

2) which I am refused given all these shortages I keep hearing of,
Fair, and good for you however I guarantee that your class mates that have taken these roles will be flying within 6 months given the movement in the industry. Many many companies are hiring excess ground guys to get to know them to see if they can trust them with there aircraft. Current pilots are moving very fast and the ground guys are the ones that will fill the holes.

3) Ok, how about stop making them work ramp first, then pay them a decent salary, not minimum wage (or lower if they can get away with it) and then don't work them to the bone by pushing 14 hour duty days,
HAHA, said every pilot while looking for work.


I am sorry to say this, but get your head out of your ass. Companies have insurance requirements, contracts, clientele that dictate how many hours pilot must have. Every pilot goes through this, deal with it. With your low time and the sentiment you displayed in your post it shows you have a big attitude issue where you want everything just given to you on a silver platter.

I constantly see young pilots coming up with the attitude of I deserve it, give it to me and than they get pissed when they get passed over by the guys that earned it. Put your head down, do the work and great this will come.

Until companies have to park planes, there is NO pilot shortage for them.

Long time lurker and I just couldn't help myself and decided to make an account and ask a question regarding this article

https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Aviat ... ft-workers

Where on earth is this shortage and upcoming sever shortage? I have a cpl with a cat 1 IFR and around 300 hours, yet I can't seem to get a job... All I've gotten were several offers for ramp positions which I am refused given all these shortages I keep hearing of... What gives? They make it sound as if airlines are so desperate for pilots they should be knocking on the door of every pilot who's registered in TCs database...

Everytime I read an article like this it makes me sick... There's a shortage of pilots you say? Ok, how about stop making them work ramp first, then pay them a decent salary, not minimum wage (or lower if they can get away with it) and then don't work them to the bone by pushing 14 hour duty days. All this doing you're time on the ramp stuff is old news and ridiculous. For all those who say I had to do it years ago, suck it up and get over it... that was then, not now... I get that you're sour and had to put up with a bunch of BS but that's not anyone's fault, those were the circumstances

There's alot more things I can point out but it's pointless really as this post won't do much... I just feel like I needed to vent in an aviation forum setting... I have recently given up on trying to be a pilot as my career, too much garbage to put up with for not enough reward in my opinion... I also know way too many annoyed/depressed pilots who all they do is complain all the time, yet they have great paying jobs and are in a great position... Given a lot of these factors, I've happily settled for a fairly good paying job in a different field, with the potential to rise and make great money with none of the very high stressors that come with being a pilot for an airline... I'll keep flying for fun as a side hobby but it's just a damn shame it has to be this way for some

You could say I'm sour and pissed because I haven't gotten a job and it could just be me who's at fault... Well to those I say feel free to believe whatever you want

[valleyboy]

Sure there are lots of jobs out there but low time pilots are a dime a dozen and carriers who have the pilot want-a-be programs will only cycle you through that. Sure it's slave labour but mostly it's a weeding out process in their eyes. Let's face it a 300 hour pilot has no tools in the tool box yet. Ironically the only way to start fill your tool box is through experience. Some get lucky and are hired direct entry but on the other hand to "cherry pick" can place you into what you are experiencing. In hind sight 3 to 6 months or even up to a year is a very small part of a 50 year career or even if only 30 years. I know 300 hour want-a-be pilots who's first aircraft was a 705 type and all it took was some good honest physical work.

I think you made the right decision. Aviation is still stuck in the 20th century and not caught up to the current generation ideals.

Until companies have to park planes, there is NO pilot shortage for them.

- That's already happening but 300 hours does not help that issue. I still firmly believe this IATRA or whatever the multi crew license is called and it should be removed and ATP be required for right seat on anything above 703, 704 -- that fixes a lot of issues for everyone.

[AvconsultantON]

Fairly new here on the forum, but I’d consider myself experienced in the industry. Work for a major Canadian airline now and have been at this flying thing for 8 years. When I started, the hiring requirements for the 703/704 ops were much higher, with most operations requiring 1500hrs with 500hrs of multi-engine experience. Getting the 703/704 job allowed a gateway to the 705’s. The hardest jump was making it into the 703/704 as a lot of their requirements were based on contractual or insurance for the types of aircraft they operated. I went the instructor route, was fortunate to make those requirements in fairly quick order, made my way to a 704 then 705 op, which got me where I am today.

It seemed some got lucky along the way and managed to get into companies where they had provisions in place to allow dispatchers, flight schedules and ramp guys to make their way to the right seat of a 703/704 machine. Others simply didn’t have the connections to make that happen. It seems still today that the biggest jump is making into those entry level positions. It would seem that you faced the same challenge a lot of low time guys do.

You have to remember, a lot of these 703/ 704 operations are demanding of pilot skill, decision making and ability. Often times, self dispatched with minimal resources for flight planning and coordination. The captains operating these flights may have an abundance of experience and might be excellent to learn from, but it’s certainly not their job to teach you how to be an effective crewmember in an IFR environment. When they hire a sub 1000 guy, they are taking a chance. The hands and feet skills, pilot decision making and IFR skills simply aren’t there. Granted some 703/704 ops have great training departments, but due to costs, some do all the training in the airplane in a relatively quick fashion. It isn’t unrealistic to expect 703/704 ops to REQUIRE some experience before they hire a candidate to fill a right seat.

My advice to anyone who is fresh CPL or who is low time seeking that first job is to get your A’s written, keep your IFR skills sharp, make connections and network across the country. If you have the financial means for a flight instructor rating, this is one of the best ways to really hone and develop skills and abilities- all the while gaining flight hours.

Seek the experience, make yourself marketable, have a POSITIVE attitude and don’t ever believe you’re entitled to a pilot job just because you hold a licence.

[Outlaw58]

The problem is much much more an experienced pilot shortage than a just a pilot problem, thus luring folks into thinking that the problem will manifest itself by airplane getting parked.

What we are seeing instead is cockpits that use to be filled by pilots with many many thousands of hours are now seeing crews with a small fraction of that.

Today's airplane, training and SOPs go a great length to fill the experience gap making it seem like the problem doesn't really exist, but it is there. Experience is what makes a captain realize he is in a situation that is not covered by SOPs or QRH, and that it is time to veto dispatch, ATC or other.

The hiring of low experience pilot is like playing Jenga....you don't realize your tower is about to crumble until you pull the wrong block. And when it does it's ugly. You can't just stick it back in, your tower is now on the floor.

58

[Zaibatsu]

The shortage isn’t of 200 hour wonders.

It’s a shortage of ATPLs with a few thousand hours of relevant experience.

And the reason why there is a shortage of ATPLs with a few thousand hours of relevant experience is because there are fewer and fewer individuals such as yourself who are willing to accept the terrible job situations and low pay to get to the point where you’re desirable for a regional airline.

[fish4life]

A) you come off very entitled and that probably shows in any interview, frankly if you had 3000 hours with that attitude I still wouldn’t hire you. If you came into training will you have studied everything and be ready before Day 1 or are you going to show up expecting everything to be spoon fed to you?

B) at 300 hours you have almost nothing to offer the shortage is experienced pilots now newbies that don’t even know what ice is like or how to avoid a thunderstorm

C) if you feel like you are done with the industry this early on you probably should quit because it will test you many times in life, eg your first lay-off or a couple years of a reserve schedule.

D) life’s tough get used to it

[digits_]

A) you come off very entitled and that probably shows in any interview, frankly if you had 3000 hours with that attitude I still wouldn’t hire you. If you came into training will you have studied everything and be ready before Day 1 or are you going to show up expecting everything to be spoon fed to you?

B) at 300 hours you have almost nothing to offer the shortage is experienced pilots now newbies that don’t even know what ice is like or how to avoid a thunderstorm

C) if you feel like you are done with the industry this early on you probably should quit because it will test you many times in life, eg your first lay-off or a couple years of a reserve schedule.

D) life’s tough get used to it

The bane of a pilot's existence.
Accept a rampie job: "You are bringing down the industry! Don't settle for that! You are a pilot!"
Don't accept a rampie job: "You are entitled! Go work the ramp!"


I don't think the poster is entitled at all. He is doing research and wondering why all those pilot shortage articles are leading him to believe there is a pilot shortage. Doesn't sound entitled or unrealistic to me...

That being said, if you have a good paying job outside of aviation, and it allows you to fly privately, you aren't missing that much...

[seven-oh-nooo]

All I've gotten were several offers for ramp positions which I am refused given all these shortages I keep hearing of...

Your problem and your solution are in the same line. I too once overestimated my own value and boy did I ever pay for it for a long time.

You should take the offer from the busiest, safest but least well known carrier that contacted you. Go wherever they are and be ready to work your tail off. The thing is, if the snow hasn't started falling there yet it will soon and that's when their line pilots will start looking elsewhere. In short you demonstrate you're not an asshole with some humility on the ramp then get in a plane often in a matter of a couple months. Rack up a pile of flight time over the next eight months and find yourself flying a Q for somebody by this time next year. It's never been easier but it will also never be free.

I have recently given up on trying to be a pilot as my career, too much garbage to put up with for not enough reward in my opinion...

Yeah, you wouldn't have liked it. NM my advice above. Maybe someone else can benefit from it.

[Alcoholism]

Could be worse. You could have 5000 hrs of king air time and not be able to get into a regional.

Those licensed for less than a decade don't realize what conditions are like in a downturn. When I started many moonshines ago, it took a year just to get a ramp job, and that's after killing a small forest in resumes and 2.5 cross Canada roadtrips.

We are just one accident away from inexperienced and fatigued crew 'a la Colgan' to have a shortage here. Until then as others stated above, regionals are happy sticking 250hr guys in the rightseat, in 2-3 yrs they can hold the left, or AC can pick them up at 1500ish hrs with a degree. Which in itself word has gotten out as to how quick it can get there. According-to-some-article-I-read-not-long-ago-but-am-too-damn-lazy-to-google, in the past year enrolment numbers at a couple flight schools (Calgary-ish area?) are at an all time high. So it's all Mother Grey Goose sky is falling fantasy.

tldr; ramble post, but this isn't the US, so nothing to see here.

[daedalusx]

Where is 748ho when you need him ?

[munzil]

easier but it will also never be free

Nobody is asking for it to be free. Would it be so silly to actually be paid for the things we trained for?
When I started overseas in the 80s in a first world country my first job was as a pilot and I got paid as a pilot.

The only reason Canada has accepted pilots working on the ramp is because of pilots who think that is what the have to do to get a job here, same as the ones that will work for free.

Maybe the kid has a point.

[7507]

There will never be a shortage of "licenced commercial " pilots only a shortage of experienced pilots.

I wonder if all these shortage articles are to fish in people to becoming a pilot and spend their money.

Again no shortage of licenced pilots out there.

[Mooseontheloose]

LISTEN UP ALL YOU 200 HOUR WHY HASN'T WASAYA CALLED ME YET CRY BABIES!!!! TO BECOME CAPTAIN ACE MCKOOL YOU NEED TO BE STRONG AND RESILIENT!!! AINT NO ROOM IN THIS INDUSTRY FOR WUSSIES!!! TIME TO GROW UP! PACK YOUR LIFE INTO THAT CLAPPED OUT MINIVAN, BREAK UP WITH YOUR SASSY GIRLFRIEND, WAVE GOODBYE TO MAMA AND HIT THE DAMN ROAD!!!! WHAT YOU THINK THEY JUST HAND OUT FLYING JOBS TO THE WEAK AND NEEDY?!! YOU NEED TO BE HUNGRY!! YOU NEED TO BE A KILLER!!! LEMME SEE YOUR WAR FACE! AAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

TOO MANY YOUNG ONES WITH THE FORTITUDE OF A WET SOCK!!! BEEN ON EASY STREET FOR WAY TOOOOOOOOO LONG THEY'VE GOTTEN SOFT!!!! DON'T KNOW HOW TO TELL THE BOSS TO SHOVE IT!!! NEVER HAD TO FLY A HEAVEY LOAD INTO THE 'PANG!!! HAVE TO CALL MOM AND DAD WHEN THEY GET YELLED AT!! YOU SEE THEM EVERYWHERE WITH THEIR CLIP ON TIES, MODERN HAIRCUTS, SIPPING LATTES!! FA'S WALK ALL OVER THEM IT'S EMBARRASSING!!!!!!

IF YOU CANT FIND A FLYING JOB IN THIS MARKET ITS BECAUSE YOU SUCK!!!!!!! DON'T BE A BAG LICKIN' CHIMP!! GROW A PAIR OF YOUR OWN AND GET OUT THERRRRRE!! TELLING IT LIKE IT IS CAUSE IM THE REAL DEAL!!!!!

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH MEN!!!

[short bus]

Ask and you shall receive....

[FICU]

In the words of the great Sargent Hulka... “Suck it up Princess”

If you really want to fly then you gotta do the time... until you don’t.

[munzil]

In the words of the great Sargent Hulka... “Suck it up Princess”

If you really want to fly then you gotta do the time... until you don’t.

Why? Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace. Just because you did it, you want everyone else to do it. Just because you were a dumbarse you expect everyone else to be? Ever thought you are the problem with the way this industry has turned out in Canada?

[LifeAt90Kts]

I agree that pilots should be paid to be pilots, however, after having a couple of 200 hour wonders sit in my right seat over the last year (and having an instructing background) I gotta tell ya... The first 30-50 hours with a newbie are just like doing CPL instruction. Their multi theory is weak, they have little to no hands and feet, and they’re so overwhelmed with SOPs that they forget to just fly the damn airplane. And I get it. It is a HUGE shift from the bubble wrapped safe space that is the FTU to the 702/703 world.

All of that to say... Good captains will put quite a bit of effort into teaching you how to fly your new airplane, so if you have to take a couple months (or couple of weeks at my employer) on the ground to prove you’re worth spending the money and time on then just do it.

[Meatservo]

In the words of the great Sargent Hulka... “Suck it up Princess”

If you really want to fly then you gotta do the time... until you don’t.

Why? Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace. Just because you did it, you want everyone else to do it. Just because you were a dumbarse you expect everyone else to be? Ever thought you are the problem with the way this industry has turned out in Canada?

Nope. For one thing, pilot training is inadequate. I flew 703/704 for many years and a lot of it was in very challenging environments. I can tell you, and you aren't going to like this, but other than (maybe)! being able to steer a plane straight & level and interpret an approach plate, you have few skills that do me any good as a captain. Some are better than others, but the challenges experienced by most brand-new pilots include things like "landing on the centreline" and "maintaining altitude".

Maybe some of the problem is that you're probably in the right-hand seat and things feel different to you. Possibly it's due to the fact that the plane is a multi-crew turboprop that is many times bigger, more powerful and heavier than your little trainer. Since almost everybody seems to go through the stage where they really, really suck at flying, it's probably not your fault.

But here's the thing. Nobody knows you, and nobody owes you anything. We already know that there will be a period of time during which one of the more senior captains is going to have to spend some time sitting with you trying to decide whether it's safe to allow you to take over the controls, knowing damn well that the whole excersize is likely to end with you touching down on the downwind wheel or float, losing control of the rudder and careening down the runway or lake trying to steer with the "steering wheel" while the captain, eyes big as saucers, tries to peel your sweaty little hand, now frozen into an iron grip, off the power levers so he can exert some kind of directional control over a rapidly deteriorating situation. Over and over and over again, until someday you "get it" and become a crewmember whose presence in the cockpit makes the plane MORE safe, rather than a training scenario the people in the back are unwittingly paying to witness.

The whole thing is incredibly stressful. Many times, I have had a discussion with the chief pilot or the DFO about whether there's any profit in continuing to devote resources to somebody who just doesn't seem to be catching on. Up to this point, I have always been on the side of the new pilot. This is probably because I like young people, and I myself had some trouble "catching on" when I started out, some thirty years ago now. My chief pilot then liked me, and he liked me because I worked hard on the dock.

You probably think you're a pretty good pilot, as does everyone with a commercial ticket and the nerve to apply to our company as a "professional". But here's the truth: you've been taught to row a boat in calm waters. You're applying to be a bridge officer on a ship. You have no idea what kind of risk you're asking people to take on you, and now you're asking them to take that risk on someone they don't even know. No thanks. I hated every second on the ramp too, but at least when I started flying I knew how to perform some of the ancillary duties all pilots have to perform, so my uselessness in the cockpit wasn't an all-encompassing disaster.

I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.

[5400AirportRdSouth]

Nope. For one thing, pilot training is inadequate. I flew 703/704 for many years and a lot of it was in very challenging environments. I can tell you, and you aren't going to like this, but other than (maybe)! being able to steer a plane straight & level and interpret an approach plate, you have few skills that do me any good as a captain. Some are better than others, but the challenges experienced by most brand-new pilots include things like "landing on the centreline" and "maintaining altitude".

Maybe some of the problem is that you're probably in the right-hand seat and things feel different to you. Possibly it's due to the fact that the plane is a multi-crew turboprop that is many times bigger, more powerful and heavier than your little trainer. Since almost everybody seems to go through the stage where they really, really suck at flying, it's probably not your fault.

But here's the thing. Nobody knows you, and nobody owes you anything. We already know that there will be a period of time during which one of the more senior captains is going to have to spend some time sitting with you trying to decide whether it's safe to allow you to take over the controls, knowing damn well that the whole excersize is likely to end with you touching down on the downwind wheel or float, losing control of the rudder and careening down the runway or lake trying to steer with the "steering wheel" while the captain, eyes big as saucers, tries to peel your sweaty little hand, now frozen into an iron grip, off the power levers so he can exert some kind of directional control over a rapidly deteriorating situation. Over and over and over again, until someday you "get it" and become a crewmember whose presence in the cockpit makes the plane MORE safe, rather than a training scenario the people in the back are unwittingly paying to witness.

The whole thing is incredibly stressful. Many times, I have had a discussion with the chief pilot or the DFO about whether there's any profit in continuing to devote resources to somebody who just doesn't seem to be catching on. Up to this point, I have always been on the side of the new pilot. This is probably because I like young people, and I myself had some trouble "catching on" when I started out, some thirty years ago now. My chief pilot then liked me, and he liked me because I worked hard on the dock.

You probably think you're a pretty good pilot, as does everyone with a commercial ticket and the nerve to apply to our company as a "professional". But here's the truth: you've been taught to row a boat in calm waters. You're applying to be a bridge officer on a ship. You have no idea what kind of risk you're asking people to take on you, and now you're asking them to take that risk on someone they don't even know. No thanks. I hated every second on the ramp too, but at least when I started flying I knew how to perform some of the ancillary duties all pilots have to perform, so my uselessness in the cockpit wasn't an all-encompassing disaster.

I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.

Hear Hear!

This should be a sticky. Seriously.

[digits_]

In the words of the great Sargent Hulka... “Suck it up Princess”

If you really want to fly then you gotta do the time... until you don’t.

Why? Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace. Just because you did it, you want everyone else to do it. Just because you were a dumbarse you expect everyone else to be? Ever thought you are the problem with the way this industry has turned out in Canada?

Nope. For one thing, pilot training is inadequate. I flew 703/704 for many years and a lot of it was in very challenging environments. I can tell you, and you aren't going to like this, but other than (maybe)! being able to steer a plane straight & level and interpret an approach plate, you have few skills that do me any good as a captain. Some are better than others, but the challenges experienced by most brand-new pilots include things like "landing on the centreline" and "maintaining altitude".

Maybe some of the problem is that you're probably in the right-hand seat and things feel different to you. Possibly it's due to the fact that the plane is a multi-crew turboprop that is many times bigger, more powerful and heavier than your little trainer. Since almost everybody seems to go through the stage where they really, really suck at flying, it's probably not your fault.

But here's the thing. Nobody knows you, and nobody owes you anything. We already know that there will be a period of time during which one of the more senior captains is going to have to spend some time sitting with you trying to decide whether it's safe to allow you to take over the controls, knowing damn well that the whole excersize is likely to end with you touching down on the downwind wheel or float, losing control of the rudder and careening down the runway or lake trying to steer with the "steering wheel" while the captain, eyes big as saucers, tries to peel your sweaty little hand, now frozen into an iron grip, off the power levers so he can exert some kind of directional control over a rapidly deteriorating situation. Over and over and over again, until someday you "get it" and become a crewmember whose presence in the cockpit makes the plane MORE safe, rather than a training scenario the people in the back are unwittingly paying to witness.

The whole thing is incredibly stressful. Many times, I have had a discussion with the chief pilot or the DFO about whether there's any profit in continuing to devote resources to somebody who just doesn't seem to be catching on. Up to this point, I have always been on the side of the new pilot. This is probably because I like young people, and I myself had some trouble "catching on" when I started out, some thirty years ago now. My chief pilot then liked me, and he liked me because I worked hard on the dock.

You probably think you're a pretty good pilot, as does everyone with a commercial ticket and the nerve to apply to our company as a "professional". But here's the truth: you've been taught to row a boat in calm waters. You're applying to be a bridge officer on a ship. You have no idea what kind of risk you're asking people to take on you, and now you're asking them to take that risk on someone they don't even know. No thanks. I hated every second on the ramp too, but at least when I started flying I knew how to perform some of the ancillary duties all pilots have to perform, so my uselessness in the cockpit wasn't an all-encompassing disaster.

I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.

We've had this discussion here a few times before. Your post sounds all nice, trying to explain why people have to go through the ramp. But the truth is, it's only done because operators want cheap labor. That's it. If a non-pilot would do it cheaper than a pilot, they would hire non-pilots. No pilot has ever gotten better at flying a plane by working on the ramp. Never happened. Never will happen. You want to know if a guy is a total buffoon? Put him on the ramp for a week during groundschool. That will tell you all you need to know. Other than that, you are trying to figure out "how much shit is he willing to put up with to get in an airplane seat" while trying to get cheap ramp labor, which has nothing to do with quality of flying, or being useful in the cockpit.

[Meatservo]

We've had this discussion here a few times before. Your post sounds all nice, trying to explain why people have to go through the ramp. But the truth is, it's only done because operators want cheap labor. That's it. If a non-pilot would do it cheaper than a pilot, they would hire non-pilots. No pilot has ever gotten better at flying a plane by working on the ramp. Never happened. Never will happen. You want to know if a guy is a total buffoon? Put him on the ramp for a week during groundschool. That will tell you all you need to know. Other than that, you are trying to figure out "how much shit is he willing to put up with to get in an airplane seat" while trying to get cheap ramp labor, which has nothing to do with quality of flying, or being useful in the cockpit.

So you do ARE advocating putting them on the ramp to start out. I don't know what groundschool you've been attending, but during groundschool most pilots are "attending groundschool", so working the ramp would be impossible.

[munzil]

I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.

I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)

[C-GGGQ]

I don't care for your attitude. Plenty of young people are doing the work you're too good for, moving on to good-naturedly attempting to murder their training captains, and finally earning the respect they deserve. The weak tend to weed themselves out, as you have done. Thank you for giving up.

I can only assume that you are talking to the kid that gave up and not me.

Overseas almost 30 years ago when I started, after I got my cpl, I got my firsr job in a single piston till 800 hrs. From there I flew twin pistons for another 1000 or so. Then single turbine then multi turbine sic all the way up to heavies. I never worked the ramp and never knew anyone that did so as a licensed pilot not part of their flying duties

During this time I flew into fields and tracks around the globe in some challenging places. I have had plenty of low timers sitting next to me and all the time having to keep a third eye out.

Distinctly many of them should not have not been sitting there and needed 1000 hours more flying a single piston around and then more on a multi-piston as pic.

Never once did I think that that kid should be working the ramp. The Ramps was mostly full of other kids working to save money for their license.

There are many harder places than Canada around the globe yet Canada is alone with forcing pilots to work on the ramp. From what I have seen from my time here it is because of some asinine perspective from older pilots that this is how you earn your wings

It is about time that Canada joins the rest of the world and changes its attitudes to pilots and what they need to do to 'belong'. Otherwise Canada will continue doing what it does best by having the lowest paid pilots who are always fatigued working for the lowest benefits.

Because right from the outset they were trained to believe they had to work for next to nothing to prove themselves which carries itself all the way through until the are sitting left on a 7.

Maybe it is time to change, starting with seasoned pilots pushing their outdated perspectives on the newer generation. There is no reason someone can't work hard through their career without selling themeselves short doing what should be someone else's job (gloved WestJet pilot I'm looking at you)