Nailed it!Rezy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:39 pm Encore One List without YOS is going to be the recipe for complete disaster in a couple of years.
So I guess you’ll get to see the Air Ontario movie again. It makes it difficult for WJ to attract qualified candidates who sit at the bottom of the Encore mountain of seniority numbers. It doesn’t offer enough for OTS qualified pilots to go to Encore, because there are way too many options for other employment.
The best path forward is having one door into WJ group and that is Encore FO after that, let people build their own path through Encore, Swoop, and WJ. Which would then be a true job market competitor with AC. And by that I mean that you can fly long haul, trans border, trans Atlantic or even regional, or... no reserve -something that WJ currently doesn’t offer!
The best way to accomplish one door into WJ is YOS to Encore pilots.
Although Swoop and WJ are one bargaining unit they are still 2 separate companies and WJ will foot the bill for YOS, which was your poor excuse for an explanation.
As I said before this will proabably stop some of the bleeding to AC.
Encore contract negotiations
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Re: Encore contract negotiations
Re: Encore contract negotiations
I’m not making demands, just presenting my opinion. Which happens to coincide with some of the management rhetoric going on when Encore was presented to the WJPA. Specifically, Encore would be the only way into WJ.JBI wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:59 pmI would love it if/when all positions at WJ/Swoop/Encore just become position bids with corresponding years of service attached. I actually think that this first CBA with Encore starts down that path. However, your criticisms of DaveP are not justified and your demands are a little out to lunch.Rezy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:39 pm
The best path forward is having one door into WJ group and that is Encore FO after that, let people build their own path through Encore, Swoop, and WJ. Which would then be a true job market competitor with AC. And by that I mean that you can fly long haul, trans border, trans Atlantic or even regional, or... no reserve -something that WJ currently doesn’t offer!
The best way to accomplish one door into WJ is YOS to Encore pilots.
Although Swoop and WJ are one bargaining unit they are still 2 separate companies and WJ will foot the bill for YOS, which was your poor excuse for an explanation.
While I know that DaveP is capable of fighting his own battles, he is under NO obligation to provide a detailed analysis of pros and cons of a contract on an internet forum to anonymous internet posters. My understanding is that he had no involvement with the negotiations whatsoever. Because he gave a quick comment re: YOS doesn't mean that this is the sole reason YOS wouldn't work nor is he in any position to need to justify it. In fact, in a unionized environment he's actually very limited to what he can say. It's up to the pilots now. You're welcome to disagree with him, but calling him a hack from an anonymous account is pretty tasteless.
As for your comments on the topics themselves: It's pretty clear that there are distinct differences between WJ/Swoop and Encore in how they are represented under the Canada Labour Code that you don't really understand. I am not for a second defending the messy situation that the company has gotten itself into with respect to the corporate structure and heck, even the new executives have stated that the way their predecessors brought in Swoop was a "disaster". But, Swoop getting YOS (as awarded by an arbitrator) is an entirely different situation than Encore getting YOS not only because of corporate structure and representation by a different union, but also the size of the pilot group, the relative seniority of the pilot group, the pay scales and the cost structure of the individual operations. What Encore pilots vs. Swoop pilots have done for the company has little to do with the reality of what the company can actually afford. Years of Service at Mainline for the Encore Pilots would be roughly the same cost to the company as giving all of them an immediate 75% raise. A 75% raise for 550 pilots is not something ANY airline could reasonably afford.
With respect to flow %'s your arguments simply don't make sense. Again, as an anonymous internet poster you can argue that there should be 98.23% flow and that every Encore pilot should be given a new Tesla when they flow to mainline, but to suggest what DaveP thinks or doesn't think is pretty silly. The flow LOU is actually quite detailed and has been provided to the Encore pilots. Again, there are pros and cons to it. I think it's actually pretty amazing. It guarantees a good rate of flow, incentivizes the company to keep the rate higher, but does provide them flexibility in times of a slowdown. I'll be the first to admit things are not perfect and previously I had concerns that new hires at Encore had an unrealistic view of how quick flow would be, but I will give credit to the company for keeping flow moving well even at times when Encore is slightly short on Captains. Even though right now the Maxs are grounded all the recent ground schools at WJ have been 50% or more from Encore.
Whether this will make Encore a better option than an AC Express carrier really depends. I honestly believe that now Encore could be the best option for some, but Jazz, Porter or other regionals will still be the best option for others.
This is the debunk argument that I showed has inherent hypocrisy:
YOS shouldn’t be granted because with 2 separate companies it’s complicated on who pays the bills.
Anyone pushing that argument is a hack. I called him that because it’s true. The argument is hypocritical in nature and presenting it demonstrates that the desire to win (no YOS) is more important than the truth or personal convictions.
Flow rate has always been predicated on how many pilots Encore can lose. It was suggested that this agreement would bring more qualified OTS pilots to Encore. If anyone truly believed that this agreement would bring in more qualified OTS then flow should be higher than 60%. Because if Encore is now getting more qualified applicants it can afford to lose a higher % to flow and not stay at Encore because of the inexperience.
Therefore, If this agreement was good enough that Encore was going to attract experienced pilots, then flow should easily attain 100%.
I’m well aware of HOW Swoop got YOS, I was asking if Encore should because Swoop does.
The inherent answer so far that I’m reading between the lines is, Swoop shouldn’t have got YOS, but they did.
Re: Encore contract negotiations
JBI, good post!
In 6 short years Encore has matured to present an attractive opportunity - in many aspects better than more established airlines - especially for the younger pilots that seem to be coming through its doors. And it seems to do it now without pricing in the "one list", which is great. It is also the only airline in Canada that provides a seamless transition without further interview process (to WestJet/Swoop).
In 6 short years Encore has matured to present an attractive opportunity - in many aspects better than more established airlines - especially for the younger pilots that seem to be coming through its doors. And it seems to do it now without pricing in the "one list", which is great. It is also the only airline in Canada that provides a seamless transition without further interview process (to WestJet/Swoop).
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Re: Encore contract negotiations
Max 16 hr duty day on reserve is an improvement! WTF
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Re: Encore contract negotiations
Compared to whose better reserve rules? Jazz’s where they could call you and give you a combined total of on call and flying of 20 hours. Or our “best” airline spot where their reserve rules are so archaic and slave like it’s not even worth going into the details.
Re: Encore contract negotiations
Max duty day is 14 hours. However, your duty day must end no more than 16 hours from the start of the callout window. So if your callout window starts at 0330, then whether they call you at 0330 or 1330 the latest they can schedule you to finish is 1930. There's no 16 hour duty days.
Re: Encore contract negotiations
That seems more appropriate.bob99 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 12:25 pmMax duty day is 14 hours. However, your duty day must end no more than 16 hours from the start of the callout window. So if your callout window starts at 0330, then whether they call you at 0330 or 1330 the latest they can schedule you to finish is 1930. There's no 16 hour duty days.
Re: Encore contract negotiations
Thats pretty decent actually. I've had two instances where I've been called RIGHT before the end of my call out period and flown to the 20hr max from the start of the callout period (although well inside a 14hr duty day). 16 would be much more civil.
Re: Encore contract negotiations
Happy for the Encore guys and gals! I think it's a great starting agreement!
Well done.
Dave
Well done.
Dave
Re: Encore contract negotiations
I believe that many Encore people voted this contract in because it’s somehow tied to the main seniority list. But, from what I understand, is that the seniority list is dependant on what the WJ Pilots vote? So the TA may very well work out for Encore, or, it could be utterly useless if they lose their slots on the seniority list. When is the seniority list vote due?
Re: Encore contract negotiations
Nope. The Encore pilots were well aware that the Seniority LOA was separate from the Tentative Agreement.skybaron wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:53 pmI believe that many Encore people voted this contract in because it’s somehow tied to the main seniority list. But, from what I understand, is that the seniority list is dependant on what the WJ Pilots vote? So the TA may very well work out for Encore, or, it could be utterly useless if they lose their slots on the seniority list. When is the seniority list vote due?
Regardless of the One List issue, it's a good initial CBA - definitely not 'utterly useless'. I think it's fair to say that most Encore pilots are hoping common sense prevails and the mainline pilots vote yes on the One List LOA. Vote closes May 14th.
Re: Encore contract negotiations
Encore/west jet = same companycloak wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:12 amNo, not really! Firstly pilots on Jazz PML (not to mention Sky) have to INTERVIEW again at Air Canada; some may be rejected. Secondly, they have to start over at AC and then will have YOS there, whereas at Encore they DON'T INTERVIEW again, will keep their vacation, and now have some pay protection. And Swoop counts towards YOS. Seems that Encore offers a pretty attractive deal in its first contract...Hangry wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:13 amTrue. Except Jazz and Sky pilots will most likely end up at AC, Not WJ. AC where pay and progression are assured.
WJ where you get to aspire to seat right seat forever. How long is it going to take someone to reach top payscale at mainline? Or you could flow to Swoop I guess. Sounds really fun over there.
Air canada / jazz, sky etc = totally different companies
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Re: Encore contract negotiations
Not anymore...snowcone wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 8:01 pmEncore/west jet = same companycloak wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:12 amNo, not really! Firstly pilots on Jazz PML (not to mention Sky) have to INTERVIEW again at Air Canada; some may be rejected. Secondly, they have to start over at AC and then will have YOS there, whereas at Encore they DON'T INTERVIEW again, will keep their vacation, and now have some pay protection. And Swoop counts towards YOS. Seems that Encore offers a pretty attractive deal in its first contract...Hangry wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:13 am
True. Except Jazz and Sky pilots will most likely end up at AC, Not WJ. AC where pay and progression are assured.
WJ where you get to aspire to seat right seat forever. How long is it going to take someone to reach top payscale at mainline? Or you could flow to Swoop I guess. Sounds really fun over there.
Air canada / jazz, sky etc = totally different companies