IFE and Recirc Fans

[pelmet]

"C-GHPX, a Boeing 787-8 aircraft operated by Air Canada, was conducting flight ACA548 from
Vancouver Intl (CYVR), BC to Newark/Liberty Intl (KEWR), NJ with 10 crew members and 223
passengers on board. During the initial climb through 12 000 feet after the departure from CYVR,
the cabin crew detected the smell of smoke, followed by the visible presence of smoke. The flight
crew stopped the climb at 18 000 feet, declared a PAN PAN, and requested to return to CYVR.
The aircraft conducted an overweight landing, and taxied to the gate. Upon opening the cabin door,
the smoke dissipated.

The operator's maintenance found a fault with the lower right recirculation fan. The aircraft was
returned to service under Minimum Equipment List (MEL) provisions."

Looks like a quick return and an overweight landing.

The recirc fans and the IFE(in-flight entertainment system) seem to be frequent contributors to smoke in the aircraft. In the end, neither has been of any importance on the aircraft I have flown and would just shut them off right away in such a situation unless the fumes/smoke smelled more like air conditioning or the source is known(although one could do it anyways as a precaution).

In this case, it looks like a very quick return was made. A situation could arise with a quick return where the smoke checklist gets bypassed due to a setup for landing being made with extremely short notice while the appropriate checklist(at least on some aircraft, is quite extensive). In that situation, having turned off the IFE and recirc fans may do nothing to help if the smoke source was somewhere else but on the other it shouldn't hurt anything either. Meanwhile if one of them was the source, the smoke might very well dissipate prior to the door being opened.

[goingnowherefast]

Where is the fan physically located in the plane? Could they hear any abnormal noises from it? Electric motors usually make horrible noises before they start smoking.

I wasn't there, never flown a 787, so can't really say much. Not sure what the checklist entails. Not sure what they heard, not sure what the FAs heard or reported.

[pelmet]

They can be below deck and/or above the passenger ceiling area and maybe elsewhere. I doubt you can hear them in flight but can’t be sure about a noisy one. The checklist does typically say to select them off.

[pelmet]

C-FWSK, a Boeing 737-700 aircraft operated by WestJet, was conducting flight WJA662 from
Calgary Intl (CYYC), AB to Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl (CYYZ), ON with 5 crew members and
134 passengers on board. During cruise flight, the cabin crew noted an acrid odour, accompanied
by haze in the cabin. The flight crew was advised, and checklist items for Smoke/Fumes were
completed. The odour dissipated after the checklist was completed, however, the flight crew
elected to divert to Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Intl (CYWG), MB. An emergency was
declared, and the subsequent landing was uneventful.

The operator's maintenance determined that a malfunctioning recirculation fan was the source of
the odour and haze.

[jakeandelwood]

Well there has been a number of fatal crashes in history from smoke in the cabin and the crew has diddled around trying to figure out why and trying to decided if it warrants an emergency landing or not, it then ends in tragedy because of wasting precious minutes. I'm my opinion get the plane to the nearest airport ASAP, fire is scary stuff.

[7ECA]

Well there has been a number of fatal crashes in history from smoke in the cabin and the crew has diddled around trying to figure out why and trying to decided if it warrants an emergency landing or not, it then ends in tragedy because of wasting precious minutes. I'm my opinion get the plane to the nearest airport ASAP, fire is scary stuff.

But you see, pelmet here is advancing the cause of aviation safety by questioning crew responses to a variety of situations, by cherrypicking incidents that support his theory from CADORS reports. Take a look at the numerous threads on incidents and accidents, you'll quickly see a trend...

[pelmet]

Well there has been a number of fatal crashes in history from smoke in the cabin and the crew has diddled around trying to figure out why and trying to decided if it warrants an emergency landing or not, it then ends in tragedy because of wasting precious minutes. I'm my opinion get the plane to the nearest airport ASAP, fire is scary stuff.

But you see, pelmet here is advancing the cause of aviation safety by questioning crew responses to a variety of situations, by cherrypicking incidents that support his theory from CADORS reports. Take a look at the numerous threads on incidents and accidents, you'll quickly see a trend...

All I did was post a CADORS yesterday report showing how the recirc fans caused the smoke(something that has come up repeatedly)and somehow it is nitpicking their procedures?

Give me a break. Fake news/childish response.

[altiplano]

I agree that it seems you are questioning their actions, which in both your examples seem to have led to successful outcomes.

You don't have any information that the recirc/ife wasn't turned off or that these crews deviated from Boeing's recommended procedures.

All the Boeings I have flown have a similar Smoke/Fumes checklist.

After the memory items, the first items on the checklist:

3 Initiate diversion to nearest suitable airport

4 IFE/PASS SEATS power switch ...... Off

5 RECIRC FANS switches (both) ........ Off

in the 787 it goes on to say...

11 Continue the diversion to the nearest suitable airport while continuing the checklist.

12 Consider an immediate landing if the smoke, fire, or fumes situation becomes uncontrollable.

13 Do not delay landing in an attempt to complete the following steps.

etc.

These guys did exactly what they should have. Landed ASAP. That's exactly what I would have done too. I can't imagine they were very much overweight on such a short transcon flight. Anyway, overweight landings are permissible and easily accomplished...

[7ECA]

Fake news eh? Oh gosh, I'm mortally wounded by that remark...

Seems it was the Swissair 111 crash which markedly changed the procedure around smoke on board an aircraft, and for good reason, from a "well that's strange why don't we spend some time troubleshooting..." to a "get her on the ground now, and ask questions later" attitude.

[pelmet]

Fake news eh? Oh gosh, I'm mortally wounded by that remark...

Seems it was the Swissair 111 crash which markedly changed the procedure around smoke on board an aircraft, and for good reason, from a "well that's strange why don't we spend some time troubleshooting..." to a "get her on the ground now, and ask questions later" attitude.

There is something wrong with your thought process. Not about smoke but about how you interpret things. Nowhere did I criticize the decision of the WJ crew to land. I just included the whole report for people to read.

Nowhere did I question the decision to land by either crew. All I said was initially that on a quick return, you may not have time to do the smoke checklist as there is so much to do in so little time, so consider turning off the IFE and recirc fans.

I merely posted the second report to show once again how the recirc fans are frequently a problem, just like the IFE system is. If you can’t interpret the obvious, maybe you shouldn’t be flying.

I will continue to post incident reports on IFE and recirc fan incidents just like I have done with the dash-8-400 baggage door incidents.

Feel free to whine away incorrectly if that is the best you can offer, which appears to be the case.

[altiplano]

Fake news eh? Oh gosh, I'm mortally wounded by that remark...

Seems it was the Swissair 111 crash which markedly changed the procedure around smoke on board an aircraft, and for good reason, from a "well that's strange why don't we spend some time troubleshooting..." to a "get her on the ground now, and ask questions later" attitude.

There is something wrong with your thought process. Not about smoke but about how you interpret things. Nowhere did I criticize the decision of the WJ crew to land. I just included the whole report for people to read.

Nowhere did I question the decision to land by either crew. All I said was initially that on a quick return, you may not have time to do the smoke checklist as there is so much to do in so little time, so consider turning off the IFE and recirc fans.

I merely posted the second report to show once again how the recirc fans are frequently a problem, just like the IFE system is. If you can’t interpret the obvious, maybe you shouldn’t be flying.

I will continue to post incident reports on IFE and recirc fan incidents just like I have done with the dash-8-400 baggage door incidents.

Feel free to whine away incorrectly if that is the best you can offer, which appears to be the case.

You're the only one whining Pelmet.

Do you have anything to represent that these crews didn't run the smoke checklist?

I'm trained the same as any Boeing pilot I imagine and I sure as hell would run it... You can throw the meat in on an immediate return, particularly on a familiar airport, while running a checklist... and as I stated, the Smoke checklist specifically states: "13 Do not delay landing in an attempt to complete the following steps." Besides they got the recircs/IFE in the early items...

You are really grasping at nothing.

[pelmet]

Fake news eh? Oh gosh, I'm mortally wounded by that remark...

Seems it was the Swissair 111 crash which markedly changed the procedure around smoke on board an aircraft, and for good reason, from a "well that's strange why don't we spend some time troubleshooting..." to a "get her on the ground now, and ask questions later" attitude.

There is something wrong with your thought process. Not about smoke but about how you interpret things. Nowhere did I criticize the decision of the WJ crew to land. I just included the whole report for people to read.

Nowhere did I question the decision to land by either crew. All I said was initially that on a quick return, you may not have time to do the smoke checklist as there is so much to do in so little time, so consider turning off the IFE and recirc fans.

I merely posted the second report to show once again how the recirc fans are frequently a problem, just like the IFE system is. If you can’t interpret the obvious, maybe you shouldn’t be flying.

I will continue to post incident reports on IFE and recirc fan incidents just like I have done with the dash-8-400 baggage door incidents.

Feel free to whine away incorrectly if that is the best you can offer, which appears to be the case.

You're the only one whining Pelmet.

Do you have anything to represent that these crews didn't run the smoke checklist?

I'm trained the same as any Boeing pilot I imagine and I sure as hell would run it... You can throw the meat in on an immediate return, particularly on a familiar airport, while running a checklist... and as I stated, the Smoke checklist specifically states: "13 Do not delay landing in an attempt to complete the following steps." Besides they got the recircs/IFE in the early items...

You are really grasping at nothing.

I don’t think so.

I think the immediate return for smoke is a very good idea. Show me where I said any different. But once again, if you don’t have time to follow the appropriate smoke checklist, refer to my earlier posts. Or listen to the whiners....who will likely never provide a decent idea. Your choice.

I certainly think the second crew got the recircs on the checklist. That is why the smoke dissipated in flight.

[altiplano]

Yes, you are grasping at nothing.

Show me where it says the crew didn't do the smoke checklist.

You are accusing a crew of things with zero to substantiate it

Of course they ran the checklist, of course they got to item 4 & 5 which are really 2 & 3 by the time you open the checklist because 1 & 2 are memory items.

Let me spell it out for you really easily how it went... it went about like this because that's the training.. you can start a timer now to see how long it took to get to the recircs as you read this....

Bing bong

"Flight deck, it's Jim"

"Hi Jim, it's Nancy at L1, we are seeing blue smoke here and in the mid galley, it has an acrid smell"

Okay Nancy, thanks, is it increasing or getting worse?"

"Yeah it's quite strong"

Okay, thanks Nancy, we're probably going to return to YVR I'll give you a call back"

"okay thanks Jim, we'll get ready"

click

"Sounds like Sparky here is acting up..."

"Seems okay up here, but let's do the Smoke drill"

Masks on, Comm established...

"Checklist Smoke"

3 or 5 clicks to bring up the ECL...

"Okay here's the smoke checklist - O2 masks are on, 100%, comms established...

initiate diversion nearest suitable airport... you want to go back to YVR?"

"Yeah, weather was good there, tell them we want to stop climb here"

"Vancouver, pan pan pan pan, AC 548 we want to stop climb FL180 and we need a return to YVR"

"Roger AC548, Stop climb 180, RW26R, turn right, heading 270, when ready descend 5000"

"okay heading 270 and 5000 when ready AC548"

6 or 10 button pushes on the FMC to load ILS 26R

"okay here's the ILS 26R loaded up, ready to execute"

"that looks right, execute... continue the checklist"

"IFE/PASS SEATS power switch ...... Off

RECIRC FANS switches (both) ........ Off"

What's your timer at? maybe you can add a minute or 2 for a bit of extra banter in there and ATC and fucking with the masks... and when they got to item 13, 30 seconds later I bet they paused the smoke checklist, talked to the back again, made a PA to the passengers, sent a message to company, took a quick look at the overweight landing guidance, confirmed their setup and landing WAT, made a quick approach briefing, and if they had time maybe they carried on with a little more of the smoke checklist...

That's probably pretty much exactly how it went, because that's roughly the training, and out of YVR I bet you had a 30+ year guy in the left seat, and a 20+ year guy in the right seat, and this wasn't their first rodeo...

And you are leveling accusations that a crew didn't do what they are trained to do and run a checklist, BASED ON NOTHING, you are wrong, and maybe you know it, but you will carry on whining down this line I suppose...

[pelmet]

Yes, you are grasping at nothing.

Show me where it says the crew didn't do the smoke checklist.

You are accusing a crew of things with zero to substantiate it

Of course they ran the checklist, of course they got to item 4 & 5 which are really 2 & 3 by the time you open the checklist because 1 & 2 are memory items.

Let me spell it out for you really easily how it went... it went about like this because that's the training.. you can start a timer now to see how long it took to get to the recircs as you read this....

Bing bong

"Flight deck, it's Jim"

"Hi Jim, it's Nancy at L1, we are seeing blue smoke here and in the mid galley, it has an acrid smell"

Okay Nancy, thanks, is it increasing or getting worse?"

"Yeah it's quite strong"

Okay, thanks Nancy, we're probably going to return to YVR I'll give you a call back"

"okay thanks Jim, we'll get ready"

click

"Sounds like Sparky here is acting up..."

"Seems okay up here, but let's do the Smoke drill"

Masks on, Comm established...

"Checklist Smoke"

3 or 5 clicks to bring up the ECL...

"Okay here's the smoke checklist - O2 masks are on, 100%, comms established...

initiate diversion nearest suitable airport... you want to go back to YVR?"

"Yeah, weather was good there, tell them we want to stop climb here"

"Vancouver, pan pan pan pan, AC 548 we want to stop climb FL180 and we need a return to YVR"

"Roger AC548, Stop climb 180, RW26R, turn right, heading 270, when ready descend 5000"

"okay heading 270 and 5000 when ready AC548"

6 or 10 button pushes on the FMC to load ILS 26R

"okay here's the ILS 26R loaded up, ready to execute"

"that looks right, execute... continue the checklist"

"IFE/PASS SEATS power switch ...... Off

RECIRC FANS switches (both) ........ Off"

What's your timer at? maybe you can add a minute or 2 for a bit of extra banter in there and ATC and fucking with the masks... and when they got to item 13, 30 seconds later I bet they paused the smoke checklist, talked to the back again, made a PA to the passengers, sent a message to company, took a quick look at the overweight landing guidance, confirmed their setup and landing WAT, made a quick approach briefing, and if they had time maybe they carried on with a little more of the smoke checklist...

That's probably pretty much exactly how it went, because that's roughly the training, and out of YVR I bet you had a 30+ year guy in the left seat, and a 20+ year guy in the right seat, and this wasn't their first rodeo...

And you are leveling accusations that a crew didn't do what they are trained to do and run a checklist, BASED ON NOTHING, you are wrong, and maybe you know it, but you will carry on whining down this line I suppose...

You are correct that there is nothing in the report that says that the crew didn't follow procedures and do it exactly as trained. We do not know what the details are. I will accept your premise that they had time to do all checklists and they were done as you stated.

We know little detail about the fauIty recirc fan and it is quite possible that this fan continued to smoke after it was selected off and that would explain why the the first report states that the smoke dissipated after landing when the cabin door was opened(as compared to the Westjet incident where the report states that it dissipated after the checklist was completed).

[altiplano]

I appreciate that you accept they did what they were trained to do.

Maybe the smoke dissipated better on that flight for a variety of reasons. Maybe the fact that the Westjet flight was in the air longer and they descended from cruising altitude... FL360? FL400? whatever? all the way down to Winnipeg and there was a lot of air moving out of that cabin... The 787 barely climbed, has a bigger cabin, probably a bigger fan? There is certainly a lot more electricity rubbing through that aircraft... maybe it smoked more? No 2 things are going to be exactly the same...

[pelmet]

Here is another non-essential item, in addition to recirc fans and In Flight Entertainment systems that frequently causes smoke or fumes.......the galley. I know of one flight where a full emergency landing and evacuation was done due to.....burning muffins in the oven. In this case, perhaps a jammed fan began to overheat. They might be powered by a galley switch or a Utility(non-essential items) switch.

I will assume that the crew followed all appropriate procedures and for some unlikely and totally unexplainable reason, the smell did not dissipate despite all the airflow through the aircraft. But it does show another non-essential item like recirc fans and IFE systems that seem to repeatedly have smoke/fume issues and why you want to ensure that they are depowered.

"N397AN, a Boeing 767-323ER aircraft operated by American Airlines, was conducting flight
AAL734 from Philadelphia Intl (KPHL), PA USA to Manchester Intl (EGCC), UK. Approximately
200nm east of St John’s Intl (CYYT), NL, the crew had an odor in the cockpit that would not
dissipate. The crew declared an emergency and requested a diversion to CYYT. The flight landed
without further incident with ARFF standing by. Maintenance completed an inspection of the
engines and APU and no discrepancies were found. The oven in the first class galley was found
to have aluminum foil stuck in the oven fan. Maintenance placed the oven as non essential
furnishing (NEF)and the aircraft was returned to service."

[Capt. Underpants]

Galley ovens are indeed a frequent PITA. Part of the problem is the catering staff who literally slam the inserts into the ovens when uploading for the next flight. They frequently bend the back of the oven enough that the shroud on the air circulation fan restricts fan blade movement and voila - it overheats and makes plenty of smoke.

[pelmet]

Looks like another professionally handled situation on a recurring item....

"N189DN, a Boeing 767-332 aircraft operated by Delta Air Lines, was conducting flight DAL474
from New York/Kennedy Intl (KJFK), NY to Venice/Marco Polo Intl (LIPZ), Italy. While in cruise
flight at about 230 nm SE of St. John's Intl. (CYYT), NL (45°27' N, 048°10' W), the cabin crew
detected an electrical odour in the cabin, although no visible smoke was noted. The flight crew was
notified, and the captain transferred aircraft control and commenced the smoke and fumes quick
reference handbook procedure. The flight crew then received an EICAS message regarding the left
recirculating fan, and secured the fan. The flight crew conferred with their company maintenance
control, decided to divert to CYYT, and coordinated with air traffic services for the diversion. The
crew declared an emergency and landed at CYYT without further incident. Emergency services at
CYYT determined no fire was present.
Maintenance personnel subsequently inspected the aircraft and verified that the left recirculation
fan was the source of the odour."

While it looks like the EICAS message for the Recirc fans in this case allowed an immediate actioning of the faulty item, the earlier post by Altiplano of a Boeing checklist for smoke/fumes and his commentary of how the likely diversionary procedures would take place shows something interesting. A significant amount of time can be spent initiation the diversion(communications, FMC programming, etc) prior to the next items on the checklist(3 Initiate diversion to nearest suitable airport, 4 IFE/PASS SEATS power switch ...... Off, 5 RECIRC FANS switches (both) ........ Off). Personally, I would consider taking the 3-5 seconds to turn these items off right away. After all, they along with galley power can be selected off in normal circumstances at the captains discretion without anything more than slight inconvenience to others, they can be selected off while a checklist is being retrieved by the other pilot meaning that no other procedures are being delayed, and they are the most likely items to be causing smoke.

Basically, this is what I have been saying since the first post on this thread. It could get overlooked on a quick return.

[corethatthermal]

Personally, I would consider taking the 3-5 seconds to turn these items off right away. After all, they along with galley power can be selected off in normal circumstances at the captains discretion without anything more than slight inconvenience to others, they can be selected off while a checklist is being retrieved by the other pilot meaning that no other procedures are being delayed, and they are the most likely items to be causing smoke.

And that may be called airmanship ! Thinking instead of being robotic ( Swiss-air 111)

[pelmet]

This pilot did some quick thinking on climbout and resolved the situation.....

"C-GHKR, an Air Canada A330-343 operating as flight ACA0099 from El Dorado International
Airport, Bogota (SKBO) Colombia to Montréal-Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport (CYUL),
QC. On departure, there was a burning smell and the flight crew noticed smoke pouring out of the
overhead ducts in the Flight Deck. At thrust reduction altitude, the flight crew selected climb thrust
and selected the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) bleed off, smoke immediately dissipated. The cabin
crew was advised, no fumes or smoke identified in the cabin. The flight continued to CYUL without
further incident."

Not sure why the APU was operating, MEL perhaps.